I've always had a thing for characters with extra arms. Don't know why but I do. My question is are there any good way's to build a character around the Shiva Arms meta-quality in 4E.

Yes there is.

I have, as an experiment, made a six-armed gunslinger. Its actually brutally effective.

You basically have to load up on all the dice POOL modifiers you can possibly get, so they apply after the two-gun dice split, and then do your best to cancel out any other modifiers that can tank your dice pool into glitch-heavy territory. (a means of getting guard is HIGHLY recommended)

When you put out 6 shots per simple action at 6-7 dice each, its a lot of hurt. Not because each shot does a lot of damage, but because you can very quickly whittle a defenders dice pool down to nothing, even if on a full defense, and either nickle-and-dime them to death, or just put all of your dice into one shot with your other action. Just keep in mind that if you can put out a potential 12 shots each turn, and kind of stack the odds up just enough so each of them gets at least one hit, then that is a potential -12 to someone's defense pool from subsequent attacks.

The other real use of shiva arms is to put arms on critters so you can get monster people.

Wait, really? I wasn't aware there were any modifiers that were added after you split your pool. In fact, as far as I know, RAW says specifically to add all positive modifiers before you split your pool.

Read the rules. All modifiers are added after the split:There is no differentiation between positive and negative modifiers.

Hell-no.
You ONLY split Stat+Skill.
There are ALSO special restrictions that makes smartlinks and laser sights also not apply.

Fun and difficulty of six arms, in webcomic form. (Hint: Keep an eye on lower-lefty!)

@Udoshi

Not quite.
You split Stat+Skill+Diceboni and afterwards you add dicepool modifier.

All ranged modifiers are to be found on the table on page 140. There are additional in the arsenal as far as I know...

Most boni from Bioware, Cyberware and Magic etc. are Dicepool boni and not modifiers. (Some are, but if so it is mentioned)

This is plain WRONG. There are only DP modifiers, skill (incl. skill modifiers) and attribute (incl. attribute modifiers).

Probably the RAI, and how I would run it myself, but unfortunately not how the rules are actually worded (although I still think that the intent - for it to only mean things like light, cover, etc. is clearly discernible). And so you have ludicrous munchkin exploits such as this, or, on the magical side, a multi-casting mage adding the full rating of his Force: 4 power focus and mentor spirit bonus to each of the spellcasting tests.

For example:

If it would be a modifier, why did they not call it like that?


So the reflex recorder would not give you any bonus by Raw. Thats right, but it is silly.
I guess they just used modifiers here as a general term. But yes, it should have been written differently.

Well, you use an old book. SR4 Errata changed it to a skill modifier.



Edit: Also, i would say everything that is not a skill or attribute mod, is a DP mod.

Hello everybody


Yes there Is I'm playing a Nartaki Elf (Gunslinger Adept)myself and he's (now after ca 100 KArma) quite effective and especial
versatile as well as in close Combat (4 Kukri ) or with 2-3 SMGs etc

@Splitting the Pool
There are Modifiers (positive like Specialisation,Tracerammo or in close Combat Reach and personalised Grip)
that are added AFTER splitting the Pool.Negative Ones like Wound mod, Distance,Visibility,Cover are subtracted from all Pools (of course)
and Skillmodifiers (Adept improved Skill, Reflexrecorder, some pos.Qualities) that raise the Skill and these are included BEFORE splitting the Pool

And Yes I know the FAQ but they...Suck are incorrect because they contradict RAW.

Generally speaking/writing
Akimbo shooting,especially with 4 Arms, is great if its a High Noon Situation and with a optimised Char
or if its against a small Number of Mooks

He who Dances like Shiva
Medicineman

One of the interesting things about the six-armed shooter is that you end up not actually needing to be better than passable with guns in the first place; stat+skill of 6 is fine, you really just care about getting modifiers.

Udoshi, I'm curious what modifiers you had in mind. The ones I managed to dig up were:

Red Dot Sight
Tracer Ammo
Specialization
TacNet

My thought was to make a Technomancer; use a TacNet CF to get a 5+ rating Tacnet, have tricked-out drones that can stay on it, and hopefully have teammates who are willing to jam a pile of sensors on themselves to be able to run a rating 6 TacNet or something. You only need to be meh alright at shooting on its own to kamurder people, and you can still be a decently good hacker (although you probably say screw rigging and just have pokesprites do it for you).

Tacnet has a max rating of 4.

Where's the red dot sight from?

@Medicineman

Thats actually what you wrote, exept for the secializations. I reread the rules and they are not called dicepool modifiers.
(So if only modifiers are added afterwards, they are added before splitting the pool. But it is dubious, because they are neither called dicepool boni just told they are added to the test...)
Would have been great if they really made a list of which boni is what for the FAQ. So you had one source to look in...

I am a bit under the impression the whole thing was a bit overlooked. So modifiers where supposed to be only what is written down in the modifier table but then they kept adding...
(Becuase if you follow the logic all dicepool modifiers for ranged combat in the core book, need by definition to be in this table on page 140.)
@Dakka Dakka
I guess he is thinking of laser sight.

Gun Heaven

And Irion specialization is a dice pool modifier, as per the following rule

The FAQ just utterly fails to follow the actual rules, once again.

Please quote the sentance above too...
They are talking about injuries and situational factors.
(Visibility etc.)
Like I said, thats quite questionable with specialisations.

Oops, you are right. Normally the limits are just on what you can buy, but TacSoft does have a hard max of 4.

Are there any answers to this question that don't involve the number of attack dice such a character might roll? [Um, and is there a less dickish way to ask that question? ]

No, and no.

The advantage is pistol in one hand, magazine in second hand, grenade in third hand, and soykaff in fourth hand. Combat and kaff at the same time!

Agreed. It's silly enough to use 2 guns at once, let alone more. Be creative about extra arms, and remember there's a reason most people don't have them.

With 4 hands you can suppress 4 corridors at the same time, if you find yourself in the intersection with baddies coming from every way

Four arms, standard stereo vision.

Still, if you go for blindfire with some Yamaha Sakura Fubukis with EX-ex or Suppression Rounds (One of the NON-Munchie items in War!) and that might actually be effective. Especially if you mod them for Full-Auto and have some gear to handle the recoil. (Or just don't care because it's suppressive fire.).

At the very least, it'd really increase you P2.0 Rating if you had a cool Muzzle Flare Effect from the Gas Port Compensators! And we all know that's more important if you're 'Running in LA!

EDIT: Or make like Revy @ 1:20.

Suppressive Fire does not care about blind fire, right? O.o
Also, 4 Arms==2 Troll-Bows . . *runs*

The Red Dot Sight + Tracer was INDEED the bonus I was thinking of. Unlike smartlinks and laser sights, the red dot sight has no provision for not working while double wielding. Thank you, bad writers of Gun Heaven.
Synch or Sideways can give you another +1.

And you want to run your Tacnet 4 on a commlink that is commlinkmod Optimized for a Tacnet. That will give you a 'rating 5' tacnet. Unfortunately, it comes with its own drawbacks. In order to get the full bonus, you need 7 members on the net, each contributing 8 channels. That means You(1) and each of your six guns(6) just needs 8 channels, and you're good to go. A Smartgun System comes with a Camera(1) and a Laser RangeFinder(2), and its camera is explicitly spelled out as being able to take vision enhancements (4a 322), and the mod(arsenal) works exactly like the accessory.
Under 4th rules, cameras dont have any limit on accessories, under 4A, its equal to their rating. You can work around this by installing a higher rating camera, using the camera upgrade mod once you run out of accessory space, or the expensive option of Pilot upgrading your smartgun. Rating 1 is enough to get the job done, because drones have special considerations for contributing sensor channels.

Past that you really need to work to eliminate dice pool penalties from Wounds, from Cover, from Range Penalties, from Visibility Modifiers, and pretty much anything else.
The trick isn't getting good dice while multigunning, its keeping it constant enough to hit.



Doesn't actually work. Two gunning is simple actions only. Guess what suppressive fire is?


That is how it works, yes. Fortunately, there are provisions for only one focus applying to a given test. So you cant have a spellcasting and a power focus helping at once.



4th Anniversary page 120: Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill when the specialization is applicable
to the test.
Note how it does not increase your skill by two.

The trouble is that dice pool size more or less does determine how effective a character is. Also, Shiva arms, other than letting you hold a few more things at the same time, are not written with any solid, quantifiable bonuses (compare them with satyr legs, which give you higher running speed, +2 to gymnastics tests including gymnastics dodge, and +2 Strength for kick attacks).

So my answer to the original poster would be, either you can exploit the poorly worded rules on splitting dice pools, or you can go the "just fun" route. If I made a nartaki, I would probably give him bartending (with a specialization in exotic mixed drinks) and massage as knowledge skills, and name him "Forewarned".

I've always wanted to make a nartaki bartender adept, who also happens to be a masseuse. With adept multitasking to represent extra handedness.
The problem is, mechanically, you can't even use your extra hands to reload your gun or anything. They are functionally useless, because extra free actions from multitasking go away when shooting starts.

You can use them for that. You just don't get more *actions* for doing so. It's not like a second hand gives you more actions, either.

3 IPs and 4 MGL6 Grenade Pistols ain't silly

with an Overdance
Medicineman

You forgot FA mod and MRSI on the MGL. Now that is silly.

I was always a fan of heavy weapon shield and melee weapon all drawn so you are ready for anything (or you know climb a rope and still shoot stuff).

Yeah, the importance of negating modifiers might make Adept an attractive choice for Adept Centering.

I'd forgotten Synch and Sideways, good catch.

Actually, that reminds me of the other practical use of Shiva Arms - getting more cyberlimbs! Torso + 6 lower arms +2 lower legs is a mere 5.1 essence, and can get you 36 armor and a kick to the nuts from your GM.

I wonder if Shiva Arms have to be symmetrical ?

http://www.weirdspace.dk/TopCow/Graphics/MorganStryker.jpg

with a thousand wondrous Dances
Medicineman

Hm I have to say that the lack of quantifiable benefits for the Shiva Arms advantage is a good argument for using the dice splitting rules as written. The logic being the person who decided shiva arms was worth 15 points had to think it was for a good reason. Remember not only do you have to sink 15 to 30 bp's into shiva arms but also 15 to 25 more on ambidexterity.

Trying to get benefit from multiple Red Dot Sights is unlikely to result in anythink other then getting kicked to the nuts by the GM, possibly multiple times
Also how the heck do you even target with more then one red dot sight simultaneously?

That's a dangerous line of thinking. If we assume the writers used logic or balance in the costs of Qualities, we'll likely all go insane. If you are risking that, though, don't forget the Rarity Tax.

Ha, Mäx! Absolutely: not everything is about exploiting obvious rules errors.

Hmm, here's an interesting one: how about a melee-based six-armed character? The Evo Kali cyberarm optimization gives a +1 bonus to Blades test per modified arm. Now, six cyberarms is most of your essence, but I think you could make it work.

TacNet and Specialization still apply to melee; no Red Dot Sight cheese or Tracers, though. Synch still applies.

Personalized Grip only adds to that weapon, but at least you can get one each for a +1 to each attack.

Being a Troll and using base reach 1 weapons would get you another +2 per attack.

It would take some serious work to get six cyberarms and still have a way to get even a second IP, but I think you could reasonably get a base pool of 12, split to 2, +6 for Evo Kali, +5 for TacNet, +2 for Specialization, +1 for Personalized Grip, +2 Reach. That's 18 dice per blade, not half bad; there's a variety of ways to pump your damage per hit through the roof, so you could quite reasonably be a crazy murder machine.

I officially love this(!), and I'll work on a build to see if I can make it work as soon as I get some free time. I'll post my results here, if you're interested.

Man, I hope no one notices the six-armed chrome Troll trying to get into melee range.

They won't. He bathed in ruthenium this morning.

Go read those rules again, it's +1 to blades when that arm is wielding the weapon, so it's just +1 for each arm.
Technically you could get +6 if you wielded only one bladed weapon with all 6 arms though

It certainly doesn't make sense for 6 independent arms to give each +1 to each other, no. Ah, the magic of interpreting the rules to your benefit.

@Yerameyahu
Yeah, thats the said thing about Shadowrun. There are not thousands over thousands of spells, skill, classes which could have one combination nobody thought of... And with this one combination you can be darn powerful.
So you need to make your own loophole by stretching the rules.
Unfortunatly, this is quite easy in Shadowrun...

It's not the nifty concept that bothers me: multi-armed pistolero or knife-fighter is wacky, but *fun*. It's the numerical trickery used to take it from 'fun' to 'unfun'. Luckily, the GM simply can say 'no'. Charop is a fun game of theory, but it's important to remember that it can never, ever be used for real.

The sad thing is, that the line between munchkin and usable rules is sometimes quite thin in Shadowrun.

(It is a silly rule to split the pool anyway. Every shot shoul be made with a modifier for shooting a second firearm and the one in the off hand for shooting with the wrong hand.)

I think it actually was meant to be +1 per arm, but it doesn't particularly matter. If you want to keep it unambiguous, you can instead use fist weapons and the Ultimate Champion arms, which very explicitly state it's a +1 bonus per arm. I just thought swords were cooler but they don't have a clear advantage over UC.

Well, aside from Reach and better damage/AP . .