Autodocs and Autosofts, First Aid sans metahuman medic Options

[bobbaganoosh]

I ran into a bit of an issue with the healing rules in my group. It hinges upon the definition of an autodoc. According to Unwired, page 114, a drone equipped with the proper equipment and the [profession] autosoft can roll pilot + autosoft rating on a single technical skill test. According to the healing rules on SR4A page 253, an autodoc simply rolls its rating. So, is First Aid an exception to the [profession] rules? The argument put forward against [profession] was that an autodoc, or autonomously acting medkit, must have some sort of software telling it how to heal, and therefore, a drone should roll medkit rating, and not benefit from any autosoft. My "clockwork medkits" counterargument wasn't nearly as good.

[Draco18s]

1) buy the autodoc
2) buy a R6 medkit
3) hire a rigger
4) rigger rigs the autodoc
5) rigger rolls an [exorbitant amount of dice] to heal people.

Yes, that's right, the rigger gets more dice to healing people when doing it remotely.

Or so I've been told.

[Froggie]

I don't think a medkit stacks with an autodoc

Also remote operations through a medkit or autodoc carry a -2 dice pool penalty (Augmentation 125 and SR4A 253)

[Yerameyahu]

My best answer is that an Autodoc is an exception, and the First Aid autosoft doesn't exist. Instead, an autodoc *is* a medkit… with mobility. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My best answer is that an Autodoc is an exception, and the First Aid autosoft doesn't exist. Instead, an autodoc *is* a medkit… with mobility. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Of course the First Aid Autosoft exists. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Autosoft [Profession - Technical Skill]

[Profession]
Profession autosofts are the equivalent of a single Technical or Knowledge skill. It allows a drone with the proper equipment and specs (tools or working arms) to perform the task, rolling Pilot + [Profession] for the test.

I do agree that the Autodoc is a Medkit with Mobility, though. Medkit and an Autodoc should never stack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

No, I'm positing that it doesn't exist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Or rather, that it's the software that runs a medkit/autodoc, and there's a special exception for adding Pilot (or anything else).

Anyway, there are tons of autosofts that shouldn't exist. Hehe.

[Draco18s]

Anyway, there are tons of autosofts that shouldn't exist. Hehe.

Profession (Prostitute)?

[CanRay]

Profession (Prostitute)?

Autosoft, no. Skillsoft, yes.

[bobbaganoosh]

No, I'm positing that it doesn't exist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Or rather, that it's the software that runs a medkit/autodoc, and there's a special exception for adding Pilot (or anything else).

Anyway, there are tons of autosofts that shouldn't exist. Hehe.

See, that's the argument that was put to me. The healing rules don't specify what an autodoc is, other than the Crash Cart Autodoc on page 350 of SR4A. Therefore, if an autodoc is just a medkit with mobility, and medkits and autodocs can heal a patient that they're hooked up to, then why would a drone that has proper equipment and the Profession [First Aid] autosoft roll a different set of dice? If the medkit can work by itself, it must be using software, and all it rolls is Rating, whereas a drone rolls Pilot + Profession {First Aid] + medkit rating. These two rules seem contradictory. As I alluded to in the OP, I claimed that it's possible that medkits work autonomously using a very advanced set of clockwork, and clockwork isn't software, so the Profession [First Aid] autosoft allows drones to roll Pilot + Autosoft + medkit rating, instead of using the rules for an autodoc presented in SR4A.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A Medkit is not an Autodoc...
An Autodoc is a Drone.

They have different rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

No, they don't seem to, TJ. The AutoDoc drone is merely a drone with a R4 medkit, as part of a Valkyrie Module. It doesn't even *have* autosofts, even in Arsenal. What different rules are you thinking of?

[bobbaganoosh]

A Medkit is not an Autodoc...
An Autodoc is a Drone.

They have different rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Can you provide a page reference? According to my copy of the SR4A Core Rulebook, page 253, medkits and autodocs work exactly the same way. If used by a character with the skill, it adds the rating. If used by someone without the skill, the rating is used instead of the skill (so no defaulting penalty). If hooked up to a injured character and told to work by itself, it rolls Rating.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, they don't seem to, TJ. The AutoDoc drone is merely a drone with a R4 medkit, as part of a Valkyrie Module. It doesn't even *have* autosofts, even in Arsenal. What different rules are you thinking of?

Maybe I missed something. But since the Autodoc can have a Profession: First Aid Autosoft, and the Medkit cannot, I would say they have different rules. The Autodoc can add its Autosoft, while the Medkit will never benefit from such a thing, since i is NEVER a drone.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Can you provide a page reference? According to my copy of the SR4A Core Rulebook, page 253, medkits and autodocs work exactly the same way. If used by a character with the skill, it adds the rating. If used by someone without the skill, the rating is used instead of the skill (so no defaulting penalty). If hooked up to a injured character and told to work by itself, it rolls Rating.

Accept that an Autodoc can add its Autosoft... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Unwired provides Advanced Rules for the Autodoc, based upon its Autosoft. Says so, even in SR4A. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

If it could, then that CrashCart would have that autosoft, as far as I'm concerned. Damned robots are taking over everything already.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If it could, then that CrashCart would have that autosoft, as far as I'm concerned. Damned robots are taking over everything already.

Except that the Crashcart came out BEFORE the Autosoft... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

SR4A came out before the First Aid autosoft?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

SR4A came out before the First Aid autosoft?

SR4A was not a full on update from the Other Major Books, only the SR4 Main BBB, as evidenced by the references to LOOK IN THE ADVANCED Books. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Since the Autosoft [Profession] Was introduced WELL after the SR4 Main Book (In Unwired), then in effect, Yes.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* I'd assume the drone actually named 'AutoDoc' would have merited that update. The rules already referenced refer to 'autodocs' in general, though, and they say that they do no roll Pilot+Autosoft+Medkit. As I mentioned above, the autosoft *is* the medkit rating, proven here:

If a trained medtech uses a medkit/autodoc when healing a character, she receives a dice pool modifier equal to the device’s First Aid or Medicine autosoft rating.
If the device is hooked up to a patient and left unattended, simply roll the device’s rating for any tests.

(Emphasis somebody's.) See? Not only does this clearly say that a medkit/autodoc rating *is* the autosoft in question, but it equally clearly says that the device rolls only that rating.

Like I said: it's a special exception. Alas, but there's plenty of DP-creep already.

[Method]

It seems to me that [Autodoc: Pilot + Profession (First Aid) + Medkit] is meant to parody [Metahuman: Logic + First Aid + Medkit]. No new rules there.

The real question is how a Medkit functions autonomously (i.e.- when used by an unskilled operator), which is something that has never been clearly explained, and can be problematic. If the rules are to be internally consistent, the Medkit rating should be a flat bonus and using it without the appropriate skill should be the same as defaulting. Thus the pool would be: [Metahuman: (Logic-1) + Medkit].

But thats just my 2¥. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Yep: the medkit rules have *never* made sense, nor followed any existing paradigm, so there's no reason to start now (when it would lead to even more massive healing DP creep).

Personally, I don't think a medkit should give a (Rating) bonus directly to Logic+Skill in the first place. That bonus reflects the onboard autosoft, and therefore *is* skill; at best, a Teamwork test.

[bobbaganoosh]

*shrug* I'd assume the drone actually named 'AutoDoc' would have merited that update. The rules already referenced refer to 'autodocs' in general, though, and they say that they do no roll Pilot+Autosoft+Medkit. As I mentioned above, the autosoft *is* the medkit rating, proven here:(Emphasis somebody's.) See? Not only does this clearly say that a medkit/autodoc rating *is* the autosoft in question, but it equally clearly says that the device rolls only that rating.

Like I said: it's a special exception. Alas, but there's plenty of DP-creep already.

Thanks. I didn't catch that bit when I read that section, nor when I reread it several times on later occasions. So, how does that work with the rules provided for Medkits?

The medkit’s rating adds to the
dice pool of all First Aid Tests, and replaces the character’s skill if the
character doesn’t possess the skill (Medkits and Autodocs, p. 253).

I would guess that the writers didn't think things through. Since an autosoft can't be used twice on the same test, regardless of source, characters with First Aid (the skill) roll Logic + First Aid + Medkit rating (as per the rules for medkits that I quoted), whereas drones using the Profession [First Aid] autosoft roll Pilot + Profession [First Aid], but don't get the bonus from the medkit, due to it maybe having an autosoft inside it already? These rules are way too fuzzy and contradictory.

1) buy the autodoc
2) buy a R6 medkit
3) hire a rigger
4) rigger rigs the autodoc
5) rigger rolls an [exorbitant amount of dice] to heal people.

Yes, that's right, the rigger gets more dice to healing people when doing it remotely.

Or so I've been told.

I haven't worked with enough of the rules for rigging to see how a rigger can perform better first aid than a medic. How do the numbers work out?
What about a Machine sprite? It has Diagnostics, and "any autosoft" as an optional CF. Could a Machine sprite take Profession [First Aid] as an optional CF, and then be even better than a rigger? Can a Machine sprite even take Profession [First Aid]?

[Yerameyahu]

Fully agreed, bobbaganoush. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Like I said, the medkit rules never made sense.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Take a van with a mobile medical shop (upgraded w/ response 6), a rigger w/ skillwires 4, first aid/medicine 4 skillsoft, a control rig and rig the medical shop.

DP:
Response 6 + skill 4 + medical shop 8 + control rig 2 + hot-sim 2 = 22 dice, and no negative modifier because the medshop is a sterile environment.

Edit: Upgrade the medical shop with a pilot program and fuzzy logic, and you have a fully automatic medical shop with 21 dice to heal somebody.
(Pilot 6, Autosoft 4, MedShop 8, Fuzzy Logic 3)

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, that's the kind of thing that would be possible… if it were. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There's no evidence it is.