I ran into a bit of an issue with the healing rules in my group. It hinges upon the definition of an autodoc. According to Unwired, page 114, a drone equipped with the proper equipment and the [profession] autosoft can roll pilot + autosoft rating on a single technical skill test. According to the healing rules on SR4A page 253, an autodoc simply rolls its rating. So, is First Aid an exception to the [profession] rules? The argument put forward against [profession] was that an autodoc, or autonomously acting medkit, must have some sort of software telling it how to heal, and therefore, a drone should roll medkit rating, and not benefit from any autosoft. My "clockwork medkits" counterargument wasn't nearly as good.

1) buy the autodoc
2) buy a R6 medkit
3) hire a rigger
4) rigger rigs the autodoc
5) rigger rolls an [exorbitant amount of dice] to heal people.

Yes, that's right, the rigger gets more dice to healing people when doing it remotely.

Or so I've been told.

I don't think a medkit stacks with an autodoc

Also remote operations through a medkit or autodoc carry a -2 dice pool penalty (Augmentation 125 and SR4A 253)

My best answer is that an Autodoc is an exception, and the First Aid autosoft doesn't exist. Instead, an autodoc *is* a medkit… with mobility.

Of course the First Aid Autosoft exists.
Autosoft [Profession - Technical Skill]



I do agree that the Autodoc is a Medkit with Mobility, though. Medkit and an Autodoc should never stack.

No, I'm positing that it doesn't exist. Or rather, that it's the software that runs a medkit/autodoc, and there's a special exception for adding Pilot (or anything else).

Anyway, there are tons of autosofts that shouldn't exist. Hehe.

Profession (Prostitute)?

Autosoft, no. Skillsoft, yes.

See, that's the argument that was put to me. The healing rules don't specify what an autodoc is, other than the Crash Cart Autodoc on page 350 of SR4A. Therefore, if an autodoc is just a medkit with mobility, and medkits and autodocs can heal a patient that they're hooked up to, then why would a drone that has proper equipment and the Profession [First Aid] autosoft roll a different set of dice? If the medkit can work by itself, it must be using software, and all it rolls is Rating, whereas a drone rolls Pilot + Profession {First Aid] + medkit rating. These two rules seem contradictory. As I alluded to in the OP, I claimed that it's possible that medkits work autonomously using a very advanced set of clockwork, and clockwork isn't software, so the Profession [First Aid] autosoft allows drones to roll Pilot + Autosoft + medkit rating, instead of using the rules for an autodoc presented in SR4A.

A Medkit is not an Autodoc...
An Autodoc is a Drone.

They have different rules.

No, they don't seem to, TJ. The AutoDoc drone is merely a drone with a R4 medkit, as part of a Valkyrie Module. It doesn't even *have* autosofts, even in Arsenal. What different rules are you thinking of?

Can you provide a page reference? According to my copy of the SR4A Core Rulebook, page 253, medkits and autodocs work exactly the same way. If used by a character with the skill, it adds the rating. If used by someone without the skill, the rating is used instead of the skill (so no defaulting penalty). If hooked up to a injured character and told to work by itself, it rolls Rating.

Maybe I missed something. But since the Autodoc can have a Profession: First Aid Autosoft, and the Medkit cannot, I would say they have different rules. The Autodoc can add its Autosoft, while the Medkit will never benefit from such a thing, since i is NEVER a drone.

Accept that an Autodoc can add its Autosoft...
Unwired provides Advanced Rules for the Autodoc, based upon its Autosoft. Says so, even in SR4A.

If it could, then that CrashCart would have that autosoft, as far as I'm concerned. Damned robots are taking over everything already.

Except that the Crashcart came out BEFORE the Autosoft...

SR4A came out before the First Aid autosoft?

SR4A was not a full on update from the Other Major Books, only the SR4 Main BBB, as evidenced by the references to LOOK IN THE ADVANCED Books.
Since the Autosoft [Profession] Was introduced WELL after the SR4 Main Book (In Unwired), then in effect, Yes.

*shrug* I'd assume the drone actually named 'AutoDoc' would have merited that update. The rules already referenced refer to 'autodocs' in general, though, and they say that they do no roll Pilot+Autosoft+Medkit. As I mentioned above, the autosoft *is* the medkit rating, proven here:(Emphasis somebody's.) See? Not only does this clearly say that a medkit/autodoc rating *is* the autosoft in question, but it equally clearly says that the device rolls only that rating.

Like I said: it's a special exception. Alas, but there's plenty of DP-creep already.

It seems to me that [Autodoc: Pilot + Profession (First Aid) + Medkit] is meant to parody [Metahuman: Logic + First Aid + Medkit]. No new rules there.

The real question is how a Medkit functions autonomously (i.e.- when used by an unskilled operator), which is something that has never been clearly explained, and can be problematic. If the rules are to be internally consistent, the Medkit rating should be a flat bonus and using it without the appropriate skill should be the same as defaulting. Thus the pool would be: [Metahuman: (Logic-1) + Medkit].

But thats just my 2¥.

Yep: the medkit rules have *never* made sense, nor followed any existing paradigm, so there's no reason to start now (when it would lead to even more massive healing DP creep).

Personally, I don't think a medkit should give a (Rating) bonus directly to Logic+Skill in the first place. That bonus reflects the onboard autosoft, and therefore *is* skill; at best, a Teamwork test.

Thanks. I didn't catch that bit when I read that section, nor when I reread it several times on later occasions. So, how does that work with the rules provided for Medkits?

I would guess that the writers didn't think things through. Since an autosoft can't be used twice on the same test, regardless of source, characters with First Aid (the skill) roll Logic + First Aid + Medkit rating (as per the rules for medkits that I quoted), whereas drones using the Profession [First Aid] autosoft roll Pilot + Profession [First Aid], but don't get the bonus from the medkit, due to it maybe having an autosoft inside it already? These rules are way too fuzzy and contradictory.


I haven't worked with enough of the rules for rigging to see how a rigger can perform better first aid than a medic. How do the numbers work out?
What about a Machine sprite? It has Diagnostics, and "any autosoft" as an optional CF. Could a Machine sprite take Profession [First Aid] as an optional CF, and then be even better than a rigger? Can a Machine sprite even take Profession [First Aid]?

Fully agreed, bobbaganoush. Like I said, the medkit rules never made sense.

Take a van with a mobile medical shop (upgraded w/ response 6), a rigger w/ skillwires 4, first aid/medicine 4 skillsoft, a control rig and rig the medical shop.

DP:
Response 6 + skill 4 + medical shop 8 + control rig 2 + hot-sim 2 = 22 dice, and no negative modifier because the medshop is a sterile environment.

Edit: Upgrade the medical shop with a pilot program and fuzzy logic, and you have a fully automatic medical shop with 21 dice to heal somebody.
(Pilot 6, Autosoft 4, MedShop 8, Fuzzy Logic 3)

Yes, that's the kind of thing that would be possible… if it were. There's no evidence it is.

Other than it is, you mean?

Augmentation, p.124, Medical Equipment
Augmentation, p.125, Remote Medical Operations

If you say this is a special case and you use Logic instead of Response for Rigging Medical Equipment, the DP raises even higher (LOG 6, Cerebral Booster 3, PuSHeD 1, Encephalon 1, Neocortical Nanites 3 + Focus Reality amplifier -> +8 for a total DP of 30, 32 with a medical facility)

I was referring, as before, to the autonomous operation. Sorry, I forgot that I was on one track, but you were mentioning two. As we've said, a medkit/autodoc rolls Rating, not Pilot+Rating.

sure, with a medkit/autodoc - i was referring to a full medical shop

But I'm saying I don't see where a medical shop has the autonomous operation ability. That section is about Remote Operations by a character.

By raw: not possible. By common sense: install a pilot in it, done (if you can rig it, you can write a pilot program for it). It is still not clear if you use pilot + autosoft + rating or just pilot + rating.

Right, that's what I said.

I would go with the higher DP, because it is the same as when a human uses it - also, you get tons of negative DP modifiers, and have a threshhold of 2 before you heal anything (none of this applies to magical healing, so the higher DP could rival magical healing - also first aid needs more time than magical healing)

Though magical healing is expensive and rarer and if you do it yourselves there's drain to consider (once you figure out what the hell they meant by DV-2).
It also has limitations (e.g. can't heal drain).

Personally, I'd fix the problem by not having medkits and autodocs be so weird to being with. Give them a Pilot rating and a First Aid (and/or Medicine) autosoft. Also, I know Augmentation touches on this, but I still don't see how 'hooking' a medkit to someone allows any healing. You need manipulators for anything but administering tests and drugs (Diagnostics and Stabilization, to me).

Here's how it *should* go: Pilot/Logic is the ability to use the stuff right, Autosoft/Skill is knowing what to do and look for, and 'medkit' (actually Gear) is the quality of the sensors, tools, and drugs in the kit. That's the only way stacking it all makes sense. (It also means you can perform *some* First Aid with no special tools if you're a drone with hands.) If this results in too-high DPs, just lower the limits, increase the Thresholds, etc. There are many options.

But, it's not my system. I'm just going by what the rules did.

I forget the exact name, but there's nanoware that'll give an extra +2 to that control rig.

control rig booster, they give a skill modifier of 1-3, but this doesn't work with an activesoft. But if the rigger would learn the medicine/first aid skill at lvl 6, the total dp would rise by 5 dice, 7 when a specialization is also learned.

As for the 'better rigging than in real life' issue (if you consider it a bug or feature), there's just nothing to be done about that.

well, if the stuff is built for rigging (like the medical shop/facility), then it should be so

Max. RL DP wo/ adept abilities: First Aid 6, Spec 2, MedKit 6, LOG 6, Cerebral Booster 3, PuSHeD 1, Encephalon 1, Neocortical Nanites + Focus Reality Amplifier 3 -> DP of 28

I still like my fix. It's even pretty drop-in: replace 'Medkit Rating 3' with 'Smart Medkit, Pilot 1+First Aid 1+Tools 1'. Etc. Pricing changes are likely required, as are tweaks to the rating max in various cases. This also means you should be able to buy a 'dumb medkit', which is tools-only. Still probably best to consider the 'aiding the character' case as teamwork test, though.