Are metavariants steeply overpriced?, Or is it just me? Options

[ShadowDragon8685]

Looking at a lot of the Metavariants, they just don't make sense, price-wise.

A Dryad, for instance, has Glamour (a 15-point metagenic Quality) and Symbiosis (a -10 point metagenic Quality.) Yet the cost to be a Dryad is 45 points compared to the standard Elf's 30 points... That seems to me to be about 10 points too many. Nartaki, too, are overpriced. They're a Human Metavariant, with Shiva Arms (a +15 point Metagenic Quality) and Striking Skin Pigmentation (a -5 point Metagenic Quality.) By my reckoning, being a Nartaki should cost you 10 points, but it's actually 25.

What gives? Did they decide to just "fuck Metavariants?" Because seriously, you can literally make a Nartaki via SURGE out of a human by taking Class II Surge for 10 points and dropping another 5 points on, say, Unusual Hair or Bioluminescent or something.

[Udoshi]

This is not new news at all.

Basically metavariants have a Rarity Tax in points based on how uncommon they are. Instead of, you know, their actual abilities.

There are even metavariants that are flat out WORSE than the basic metatypes, yet more expensive. Oni and that one other elf metavariant that isn't wakyambi, I'm looking at you.

[Yerameyahu]

And honestly, I'm fine with a rarity tax. We see way too many SURGE Fomori Ghoul mysads as it is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

It's just that I've had two players express an interest in a Metavariant but wind up turning their noses up at them because of the rarity tax issue.

I think I'm going to go over (Sol Invictus help me) every single metahuman and metavariant, by the points, and price them by strict value, not rarity.

The question is, do I price humans up for their boosted Edge, or give everybody that many points as a freebie? Probably the latter.

[Udoshi]

And honestly, I'm fine with a rarity tax. We see way too many SURGE Fomori Ghoul mysads as it is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But that's backwards. Fomori and ghoul are two of the cost -effective- ones. Or, as you might say, overpowered.

The problem with the other ones, that nobody takes, is that they just suck compared to all the other options.

The problem isn't the rarity tax. Its that it is not equally applied, and the basic types aren't balanced around their actual effectiveness anyway, which leads to a few specific powergamey options instead of all choices being roughly equal.

[Draco18s]

But that's backwards. Fomori and ghoul are two of the cost -effective- ones. Or, as you might say, overpowered.

This. The formori's "rarity tax" is actually a tax refund.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Yeah, the night-ones are really bad - 35BP for one 5BP quality and one -10BP and two -5BP qualities (if you count "distinctive style")

[ShadowDragon8685]

Hmmm, that's a good point. A number of the Metagenic Qualities also act as Distinctive Style. Should they automatically get that to accompany them, given that these qualities usually have other drawbacks as well? It sucks to get two drawbacks for the refund of one.

[Mäx]

A Dryad, for instance, has Glamour (a 15-point metagenic Quality) and Symbiosis (a -10 point metagenic Quality.) Yet the cost to be a Dryad is 45 points compared to the standard Elf's 30 points... That seems to me to be about 10 points too many. Nartaki, too, are overpriced. They're a Human Metavariant, with Shiva Arms (a +15 point Metagenic Quality) and Striking Skin Pigmentation (a -5 point Metagenic Quality.) By my reckoning, being a Nartaki should cost you 10 points, but it's actually 25.

So your not taking "can get more more then +35/-35BP worth of qualities" in to account at all?
I at least much prefer to pay that 15BP for being dryad and have +35/-35 quality points left, then get those same same qualities with surge, same goes for nartaki(unless i want to be multi armed elf/ork/troll)

But maybe this is just me, as i do pretty much alway run out of quality points.

[bobbaganoosh]

So your not taking "can get more more then +35/-35BP worth of qualities" in to account at all?
I at least much prefer to pay that 15BP for being dryad and have +35/-35 quality points left, then get those same same qualities with surge, same goes for nartaki(unless i want to be multi armed elf/ork/troll)

But maybe this is just me, as i do pretty much alway run out of quality points.

I agree that part of the bonus for taking a metavariant instead of getting the same (or better) qualities via SURGE is that you still have all 35 BP, both up and down, to spend on qualities. Dryad, for instance, is 5 BP cheaper AND gets you another 5BP metagenetic quality if you do it using Class II SURGE, but that takes 10 BP that could have been spent on other positive qualities.
This assumes BPgen. If using karmagen, then some of the metavariants are cheaper than building them with SURGE (assuming race cost is karma = bp).

[Draco18s]

I agree that part of the bonus for taking a metavariant instead of getting the same (or better) qualities via SURGE is that you still have all 35 BP, both up and down, to spend on qualities. Dryad, for instance, is 5 BP cheaper AND gets you another 5BP metagenetic quality if you do it using Class II SURGE, but that takes 10 BP that could have been spent on other positive qualities.
This assumes BPgen. If using karmagen, then some of the metavariants are cheaper than building them with SURGE (assuming race cost is karma = bp).

But are those 10 extra points of qualities really worth fifty five total BP?
(night-ones)

[bobbaganoosh]

But are those 10 extra points of qualities really worth fifty five total BP?
(night-ones)

No. Of course not. But in some cases it works out better to spend a little bit more on race, as opposed to being a changeling, in order to cram in more positive qualities.
As it has been said, though, there are some metavariants that are underpriced, like Fomori. Or Ogre.

[Udoshi]

It's just that I've had two players express an interest in a Metavariant but wind up turning their noses up at them because of the rarity tax issue.

I think I'm going to go over (Sol Invictus help me) every single metahuman and metavariant, by the points, and price them by strict value, not rarity.

The question is, do I price humans up for their boosted Edge, or give everybody that many points as a freebie? Probably the latter.

You know, I was actually making a set of houserules and rebalance patches for this very idea a while ago, and I recall sending out PMs to interested folks for feedback. Sadly I don't have the thread bookmarked any more, but I think I still have the rules from before I lost interest. (if tymeaus or rubic still have that thread, please link it).

My plan was to rebalance the basic metatypes, and then rebalance the metavariants derived from them. I think I was going to keep the rarity tax, but make it a flat 5bp after rebalancing based around cost-effectiveness.
Pricing was set up so that every race would come out at about 15P ahead of their cost. It meant that dwarves and elves looked a lot better when not compared to the cheaper orks.
My conclusion was that humans were going to end up underpowered, and so needed a boost, but not one that gave them stats. Forgot how I did it, but I recall that it was interesting.

If there is enough interest, maybe I'll finish up the rules.

[bobbaganoosh]

My plan was to rebalance the basic metatypes, and then rebalance the metavariants derived from them. I think I was going to keep the rarity tax, but make it a flat 5bp after rebalancing based around cost-effectiveness.
Pricing was set up so that every race would come out at about 15P ahead of their cost. It meant that dwarves and elves looked a lot better when not compared to the cheaper orks.
My conclusion was that humans were going to end up underpowered, and so needed a boost, but not one that gave them stats. Forgot how I did it, but I recall that it was interesting.

If there is enough interest, maybe I'll finish up the rules.

How does a higher/lower natural maximum for attributes factor into the cost for a metatype/variant? I would like to see what sort of number you come up with, because I'd like to see a more diverse set metatypes at the table, and I think balanced costs could help with that.

[Udoshi]

How does a higher/lower natural maximum for attributes factor into the cost for a metatype/variant? I would like to see what sort of number you come up with, because I'd like to see a more diverse set metatypes at the table, and I think balanced costs could help with that.

Its more that I was trying to rebalance EVERYTHING, and even the core metatypes have a rarity tax on them - its why orks are so damn cheap for what you get.

The other part is that higher minimums are basically worth 10 free points compared to just buying the attribute, so its worth something.

[ShadowDragon8685]

You know, I was actually making a set of houserules and rebalance patches for this very idea a while ago, and I recall sending out PMs to interested folks for feedback. Sadly I don't have the thread bookmarked any more, but I think I still have the rules from before I lost interest. (if tymeaus or rubic still have that thread, please link it).

My plan was to rebalance the basic metatypes, and then rebalance the metavariants derived from them. I think I was going to keep the rarity tax, but make it a flat 5bp after rebalancing based around cost-effectiveness.
Pricing was set up so that every race would come out at about 15P ahead of their cost. It meant that dwarves and elves looked a lot better when not compared to the cheaper orks.
My conclusion was that humans were going to end up underpowered, and so needed a boost, but not one that gave them stats. Forgot how I did it, but I recall that it was interesting.

If there is enough interest, maybe I'll finish up the rules.

I'm already hip-deep into the math of it. I just counted up the points Humans got for being Human (Lucky +1 purchase of Edge) and figured it as costing 30 points, so I was going to give every metahuman type 30 points as freebies.

Elves wound up perfectly aligning with their base cost. Dwarves? Just plain overpowered. I'm trying to jigger the numbers to make them work with their base speed penalty, without consequently giving trolls a huge cost for the fact that they can book.


[e]Also, I don't buy into "rarity tax" bullshit, nor "opportunity tax" BS. As a player, I absolutely loathe paying twice for the same thing, and as a GM, I refuse to make my players pay twice. That's why I decided that cyberlimbs use your base stats for free, and anything over them up to your natural maximum was the domain of tailored customization.

[Daylen]

It's just that I've had two players express an interest in a Metavariant but wind up turning their noses up at them because of the rarity tax issue.

I think I'm going to go over (Sol Invictus help me) every single metahuman and metavariant, by the points, and price them by strict value, not rarity.

The question is, do I price humans up for their boosted Edge, or give everybody that many points as a freebie? Probably the latter.

Price by value? Trying to have everyone as the only one of their kind? Just wait till they start surging the metavariants...

[snowRaven]

Elves wound up perfectly aligning with their base cost. Dwarves? Just plain overpowered. I'm trying to jigger the numbers to make them work with their base speed penalty, without consequently giving trolls a huge cost for the fact that they can book.

If you are comparing them to humans, you also have to count in the increased attribute maximums.

Start forcing metahumans to pay for the actual quality-value of their +4 Strength or +3 Charisma, and you'll find most of them quite underpriced... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Udoshi]

I'm already hip-deep into the math of it. I just counted up the points Humans got for being Human (Lucky +1 purchase of Edge) and figured it as costing 30 points, so I was going to give every metahuman type 30 points as freebies.

That's bad math, though, and if you're using humans as the baseline for statmath with the other races, you're going to end up with the same skewed math that ended us up in this mess to begin with.

If you're charging humans 30 points for a Lucky behind the scenes, then you need to charge all the metavariants with maximums higher than six the same proportionate cost.
I mean, Orks are 4 min 9 max on strength. Thats 30 points for free on the minimum, and Lucky/Exceptional Attribute/Metagenetic improvement(they are all the same cost and do the same thing basicallly) three times on one stat. Thats 210 points compared to buying it straight up. Trolls are worse. See what I'm saying?

The line of balance you're going on right now is just going to skew things worse.

[Yerameyahu]

That's my point, Udoshi: those two *need* to be rarity taxed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Udoshi]

That's my point, Udoshi: those two *need* to be rarity taxed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, they don't need rarity tax. The way you put it sounded like you were in favor of keeping things the way they are - IE night ones being worse because because of the rarity tax, not because of their actual abilities.

What those two need is to be balanced around their capabilities and cost, not their rarity.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Price by value? Trying to have everyone as the only one of their kind? Just wait till they start surging the metavariants...

Hey, Halley's Comet did not discriminate. Metavariants took it in the shorts from SURGE same as everyone else. It was an equal-opportunity life-changer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


As for people having an improved stats, that's the same as the Metagenic Improvement (Attribute) from the Runner's Companion - a raise of both the default and maximum stats.


Anyway, here's my preliminaries. I'm still going to try to jigger the numbers to make some races more acceptable... I'm aiming for nobody having a price higher than the default price, but if the numbers say someone took it in the ass hard enough to bring them below (Orcs, I'm looking at you,) then I don't mind a discount.

Humans: 0 (Duh.)
+Nartaki: 10

Dwarf: 40 (Trying to bring it down)
+Gnome: 55
+Harumen: 45
+Koborokuru: 40
+Menehune: 45

Elf: 35 (Not sure I can justify bringing this down...)
+Dryad: 40
+Night Ones: 15 (Sweet Sol Invictus, Night Ones take it from Bubba the Love Troll.)
+Wakyambi: 45
+Xapiri Thëpë: 20 (They took it almost as hard. He used lube, I guess.)

Orks: 15 (They're overpriced by default, without even factoring in the social unacceptability of being an orc.)
+Hobgoblins: 10
+Ogre: 20
+Oni: 10
+Satyr: 20

Troll: 70 (I'm going to need to bring this down a lot. Thinking of making "too damn big" and "socially unacceptable" large point faux-flaws to put in their corner.)
+Cyclops: 80
+Formoi: 105 (Two high-dollar positive qualities and they're the Pretty Trolls? Yes please?)
+Giant: 80
+Minotaur:95


So, there you have it. At the base prices, Elves are slight bargains except for two metavariants who are badly overpriced. Orks and Ork metavariants are hugely over-priced. Dwarves are underpriced, and Trolls, especially Fomori, are less steals of a bargain and more like highway robbery.

I accomplished this math by pricing each reduction in maximum attribute at 20, instead of the 5 that is Impaired (Attribute,) because otherwise there's no way in the remotest layers of Malfeas and the farthest, strangest Metaplanes to make the numbers add-up even slightly. I also gave everyone a -30 point discount, to accommodate the fact that baseline Humans are basically Lucky by default and given a free 10-pt purchase of Edge. If something wasn't explicitly stated, I priced it at 5 - Troll's natural armor and their +5 movement was both 5, while Dwarves' -2 movement was also 5.

I'm not done, though. I need to come up with some mathematic contortion to bring trolls back into the realm of remotely acceptably priced for play - basically, I need to figure out how to knock another 20-30 points off. Shouldn't be too hard.

[Yerameyahu]

Tomayto, tomahto, Udoshi: they need to cost *moar* is the point.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Tomayto, tomahto, Udoshi: they need to cost *moar* is the point.

You must be joking. I'm almost convinced you're trolling.

Night Ones have precisely one, minor, five-point positive Quality, Keen Eared.

In exchange for this lofty privilege, they take a nasty, probably underpriced, -10-point Quality in Nocturnal that means their Mental attributes get a straight-up penalty at daytime, no matter if they have any idea of the time. They just get it, because they should be sleeping then. Where does that come from, huh? Humans/elves/orks/trolls/dwarves don't take a penalty at nighttime for being creatures that should be active at daytime and are instead awake at night. That's just a random penalty on them.

In addition to this, they take a penalty in that they have a mild allergy to sunlight. So if they're outside in daytime, or near a window or something, they're taking an additional penalty to everything they do, over and above their penalty just because the clock ticked over from 0559 to 0600.

And they get Unusual Hair (Colored Fur,) which is basically a specified form of Distinctive Style. That's, let me do the math here, +5, -10, -10, -5, for a grand point total of... -20.

And you're saying they should cost more than baseline elves?

[ShadowDragon8685]

Forgive my doublepost.