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ShadowDragon8685
Looking at a lot of the Metavariants, they just don't make sense, price-wise.

A Dryad, for instance, has Glamour (a 15-point metagenic Quality) and Symbiosis (a -10 point metagenic Quality.) Yet the cost to be a Dryad is 45 points compared to the standard Elf's 30 points... That seems to me to be about 10 points too many. Nartaki, too, are overpriced. They're a Human Metavariant, with Shiva Arms (a +15 point Metagenic Quality) and Striking Skin Pigmentation (a -5 point Metagenic Quality.) By my reckoning, being a Nartaki should cost you 10 points, but it's actually 25.

What gives? Did they decide to just "fuck Metavariants?" Because seriously, you can literally make a Nartaki via SURGE out of a human by taking Class II Surge for 10 points and dropping another 5 points on, say, Unusual Hair or Bioluminescent or something.
Udoshi
This is not new news at all.

Basically metavariants have a Rarity Tax in points based on how uncommon they are. Instead of, you know, their actual abilities.

There are even metavariants that are flat out WORSE than the basic metatypes, yet more expensive. Oni and that one other elf metavariant that isn't wakyambi, I'm looking at you.
Yerameyahu
And honestly, I'm fine with a rarity tax. We see way too many SURGE Fomori Ghoul mysads as it is. wink.gif
ShadowDragon8685
It's just that I've had two players express an interest in a Metavariant but wind up turning their noses up at them because of the rarity tax issue.

I think I'm going to go over (Sol Invictus help me) every single metahuman and metavariant, by the points, and price them by strict value, not rarity.

The question is, do I price humans up for their boosted Edge, or give everybody that many points as a freebie? Probably the latter.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 31 2012, 02:03 PM) *
And honestly, I'm fine with a rarity tax. We see way too many SURGE Fomori Ghoul mysads as it is. wink.gif


But that's backwards. Fomori and ghoul are two of the cost -effective- ones. Or, as you might say, overpowered.

The problem with the other ones, that nobody takes, is that they just suck compared to all the other options.

The problem isn't the rarity tax. Its that it is not equally applied, and the basic types aren't balanced around their actual effectiveness anyway, which leads to a few specific powergamey options instead of all choices being roughly equal.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jan 31 2012, 04:13 PM) *
But that's backwards. Fomori and ghoul are two of the cost -effective- ones. Or, as you might say, overpowered.


This. The formori's "rarity tax" is actually a tax refund.
NiL_FisK_Urd
Yeah, the night-ones are really bad - 35BP for one 5BP quality and one -10BP and two -5BP qualities (if you count "distinctive style")
ShadowDragon8685
Hmmm, that's a good point. A number of the Metagenic Qualities also act as Distinctive Style. Should they automatically get that to accompany them, given that these qualities usually have other drawbacks as well? It sucks to get two drawbacks for the refund of one.
Mx
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jan 31 2012, 11:59 PM) *
A Dryad, for instance, has Glamour (a 15-point metagenic Quality) and Symbiosis (a -10 point metagenic Quality.) Yet the cost to be a Dryad is 45 points compared to the standard Elf's 30 points... That seems to me to be about 10 points too many. Nartaki, too, are overpriced. They're a Human Metavariant, with Shiva Arms (a +15 point Metagenic Quality) and Striking Skin Pigmentation (a -5 point Metagenic Quality.) By my reckoning, being a Nartaki should cost you 10 points, but it's actually 25.

So your not taking "can get more more then +35/-35BP worth of qualities" in to account at all?
I at least much prefer to pay that 15BP for being dryad and have +35/-35 quality points left, then get those same same qualities with surge, same goes for nartaki(unless i want to be multi armed elf/ork/troll)

But maybe this is just me, as i do pretty much alway run out of quality points.
bobbaganoosh
QUOTE (Mx @ Jan 31 2012, 01:23 PM) *
So your not taking "can get more more then +35/-35BP worth of qualities" in to account at all?
I at least much prefer to pay that 15BP for being dryad and have +35/-35 quality points left, then get those same same qualities with surge, same goes for nartaki(unless i want to be multi armed elf/ork/troll)

But maybe this is just me, as i do pretty much alway run out of quality points.

I agree that part of the bonus for taking a metavariant instead of getting the same (or better) qualities via SURGE is that you still have all 35 BP, both up and down, to spend on qualities. Dryad, for instance, is 5 BP cheaper AND gets you another 5BP metagenetic quality if you do it using Class II SURGE, but that takes 10 BP that could have been spent on other positive qualities.
This assumes BPgen. If using karmagen, then some of the metavariants are cheaper than building them with SURGE (assuming race cost is karma = bp).
Draco18s
QUOTE (bobbaganoosh @ Jan 31 2012, 04:28 PM) *
I agree that part of the bonus for taking a metavariant instead of getting the same (or better) qualities via SURGE is that you still have all 35 BP, both up and down, to spend on qualities. Dryad, for instance, is 5 BP cheaper AND gets you another 5BP metagenetic quality if you do it using Class II SURGE, but that takes 10 BP that could have been spent on other positive qualities.
This assumes BPgen. If using karmagen, then some of the metavariants are cheaper than building them with SURGE (assuming race cost is karma = bp).


But are those 10 extra points of qualities really worth fifty five total BP?
(night-ones)
bobbaganoosh
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jan 31 2012, 01:31 PM) *
But are those 10 extra points of qualities really worth fifty five total BP?
(night-ones)

No. Of course not. But in some cases it works out better to spend a little bit more on race, as opposed to being a changeling, in order to cram in more positive qualities.
As it has been said, though, there are some metavariants that are underpriced, like Fomori. Or Ogre.
Udoshi
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jan 31 2012, 02:06 PM) *
It's just that I've had two players express an interest in a Metavariant but wind up turning their noses up at them because of the rarity tax issue.

I think I'm going to go over (Sol Invictus help me) every single metahuman and metavariant, by the points, and price them by strict value, not rarity.

The question is, do I price humans up for their boosted Edge, or give everybody that many points as a freebie? Probably the latter.


You know, I was actually making a set of houserules and rebalance patches for this very idea a while ago, and I recall sending out PMs to interested folks for feedback. Sadly I don't have the thread bookmarked any more, but I think I still have the rules from before I lost interest. (if tymeaus or rubic still have that thread, please link it).

My plan was to rebalance the basic metatypes, and then rebalance the metavariants derived from them. I think I was going to keep the rarity tax, but make it a flat 5bp after rebalancing based around cost-effectiveness.
Pricing was set up so that every race would come out at about 15P ahead of their cost. It meant that dwarves and elves looked a lot better when not compared to the cheaper orks.
My conclusion was that humans were going to end up underpowered, and so needed a boost, but not one that gave them stats. Forgot how I did it, but I recall that it was interesting.

If there is enough interest, maybe I'll finish up the rules.
bobbaganoosh
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jan 31 2012, 01:37 PM) *
My plan was to rebalance the basic metatypes, and then rebalance the metavariants derived from them. I think I was going to keep the rarity tax, but make it a flat 5bp after rebalancing based around cost-effectiveness.
Pricing was set up so that every race would come out at about 15P ahead of their cost. It meant that dwarves and elves looked a lot better when not compared to the cheaper orks.
My conclusion was that humans were going to end up underpowered, and so needed a boost, but not one that gave them stats. Forgot how I did it, but I recall that it was interesting.

If there is enough interest, maybe I'll finish up the rules.

How does a higher/lower natural maximum for attributes factor into the cost for a metatype/variant? I would like to see what sort of number you come up with, because I'd like to see a more diverse set metatypes at the table, and I think balanced costs could help with that.
Udoshi
QUOTE (bobbaganoosh @ Jan 31 2012, 02:58 PM) *
How does a higher/lower natural maximum for attributes factor into the cost for a metatype/variant? I would like to see what sort of number you come up with, because I'd like to see a more diverse set metatypes at the table, and I think balanced costs could help with that.


Its more that I was trying to rebalance EVERYTHING, and even the core metatypes have a rarity tax on them - its why orks are so damn cheap for what you get.

The other part is that higher minimums are basically worth 10 free points compared to just buying the attribute, so its worth something.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jan 31 2012, 04:37 PM) *
You know, I was actually making a set of houserules and rebalance patches for this very idea a while ago, and I recall sending out PMs to interested folks for feedback. Sadly I don't have the thread bookmarked any more, but I think I still have the rules from before I lost interest. (if tymeaus or rubic still have that thread, please link it).

My plan was to rebalance the basic metatypes, and then rebalance the metavariants derived from them. I think I was going to keep the rarity tax, but make it a flat 5bp after rebalancing based around cost-effectiveness.
Pricing was set up so that every race would come out at about 15P ahead of their cost. It meant that dwarves and elves looked a lot better when not compared to the cheaper orks.
My conclusion was that humans were going to end up underpowered, and so needed a boost, but not one that gave them stats. Forgot how I did it, but I recall that it was interesting.

If there is enough interest, maybe I'll finish up the rules.


I'm already hip-deep into the math of it. I just counted up the points Humans got for being Human (Lucky +1 purchase of Edge) and figured it as costing 30 points, so I was going to give every metahuman type 30 points as freebies.

Elves wound up perfectly aligning with their base cost. Dwarves? Just plain overpowered. I'm trying to jigger the numbers to make them work with their base speed penalty, without consequently giving trolls a huge cost for the fact that they can book.


[e]Also, I don't buy into "rarity tax" bullshit, nor "opportunity tax" BS. As a player, I absolutely loathe paying twice for the same thing, and as a GM, I refuse to make my players pay twice. That's why I decided that cyberlimbs use your base stats for free, and anything over them up to your natural maximum was the domain of tailored customization.
Daylen
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jan 31 2012, 10:06 PM) *
It's just that I've had two players express an interest in a Metavariant but wind up turning their noses up at them because of the rarity tax issue.

I think I'm going to go over (Sol Invictus help me) every single metahuman and metavariant, by the points, and price them by strict value, not rarity.

The question is, do I price humans up for their boosted Edge, or give everybody that many points as a freebie? Probably the latter.

Price by value? Trying to have everyone as the only one of their kind? Just wait till they start surging the metavariants...
snowRaven
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jan 31 2012, 11:18 PM) *
Elves wound up perfectly aligning with their base cost. Dwarves? Just plain overpowered. I'm trying to jigger the numbers to make them work with their base speed penalty, without consequently giving trolls a huge cost for the fact that they can book.


If you are comparing them to humans, you also have to count in the increased attribute maximums.

Start forcing metahumans to pay for the actual quality-value of their +4 Strength or +3 Charisma, and you'll find most of them quite underpriced... grinbig.gif
Udoshi
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jan 31 2012, 03:18 PM) *
I'm already hip-deep into the math of it. I just counted up the points Humans got for being Human (Lucky +1 purchase of Edge) and figured it as costing 30 points, so I was going to give every metahuman type 30 points as freebies.


That's bad math, though, and if you're using humans as the baseline for statmath with the other races, you're going to end up with the same skewed math that ended us up in this mess to begin with.

If you're charging humans 30 points for a Lucky behind the scenes, then you need to charge all the metavariants with maximums higher than six the same proportionate cost.
I mean, Orks are 4 min 9 max on strength. Thats 30 points for free on the minimum, and Lucky/Exceptional Attribute/Metagenetic improvement(they are all the same cost and do the same thing basicallly) three times on one stat. Thats 210 points compared to buying it straight up. Trolls are worse. See what I'm saying?

The line of balance you're going on right now is just going to skew things worse.
Yerameyahu
That's my point, Udoshi: those two *need* to be rarity taxed. smile.gif
Udoshi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 31 2012, 03:42 PM) *
That's my point, Udoshi: those two *need* to be rarity taxed. smile.gif


No, they don't need rarity tax. The way you put it sounded like you were in favor of keeping things the way they are - IE night ones being worse because because of the rarity tax, not because of their actual abilities.

What those two need is to be balanced around their capabilities and cost, not their rarity.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Daylen @ Jan 31 2012, 05:21 PM) *
Price by value? Trying to have everyone as the only one of their kind? Just wait till they start surging the metavariants...


Hey, Halley's Comet did not discriminate. Metavariants took it in the shorts from SURGE same as everyone else. It was an equal-opportunity life-changer. nyahnyah.gif


As for people having an improved stats, that's the same as the Metagenic Improvement (Attribute) from the Runner's Companion - a raise of both the default and maximum stats.


Anyway, here's my preliminaries. I'm still going to try to jigger the numbers to make some races more acceptable... I'm aiming for nobody having a price higher than the default price, but if the numbers say someone took it in the ass hard enough to bring them below (Orcs, I'm looking at you,) then I don't mind a discount.

Humans: 0 (Duh.)
+Nartaki: 10

Dwarf: 40 (Trying to bring it down)
+Gnome: 55
+Harumen: 45
+Koborokuru: 40
+Menehune: 45

Elf: 35 (Not sure I can justify bringing this down...)
+Dryad: 40
+Night Ones: 15 (Sweet Sol Invictus, Night Ones take it from Bubba the Love Troll.)
+Wakyambi: 45
+Xapiri Thp: 20 (They took it almost as hard. He used lube, I guess.)

Orks: 15 (They're overpriced by default, without even factoring in the social unacceptability of being an orc.)
+Hobgoblins: 10
+Ogre: 20
+Oni: 10
+Satyr: 20

Troll: 70 (I'm going to need to bring this down a lot. Thinking of making "too damn big" and "socially unacceptable" large point faux-flaws to put in their corner.)
+Cyclops: 80
+Formoi: 105 (Two high-dollar positive qualities and they're the Pretty Trolls? Yes please?)
+Giant: 80
+Minotaur:95


So, there you have it. At the base prices, Elves are slight bargains except for two metavariants who are badly overpriced. Orks and Ork metavariants are hugely over-priced. Dwarves are underpriced, and Trolls, especially Fomori, are less steals of a bargain and more like highway robbery.

I accomplished this math by pricing each reduction in maximum attribute at 20, instead of the 5 that is Impaired (Attribute,) because otherwise there's no way in the remotest layers of Malfeas and the farthest, strangest Metaplanes to make the numbers add-up even slightly. I also gave everyone a -30 point discount, to accommodate the fact that baseline Humans are basically Lucky by default and given a free 10-pt purchase of Edge. If something wasn't explicitly stated, I priced it at 5 - Troll's natural armor and their +5 movement was both 5, while Dwarves' -2 movement was also 5.

I'm not done, though. I need to come up with some mathematic contortion to bring trolls back into the realm of remotely acceptably priced for play - basically, I need to figure out how to knock another 20-30 points off. Shouldn't be too hard.
Yerameyahu
Tomayto, tomahto, Udoshi: they need to cost *moar* is the point.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 31 2012, 06:12 PM) *
Tomayto, tomahto, Udoshi: they need to cost *moar* is the point.


You must be joking. I'm almost convinced you're trolling.

Night Ones have precisely one, minor, five-point positive Quality, Keen Eared.

In exchange for this lofty privilege, they take a nasty, probably underpriced, -10-point Quality in Nocturnal that means their Mental attributes get a straight-up penalty at daytime, no matter if they have any idea of the time. They just get it, because they should be sleeping then. Where does that come from, huh? Humans/elves/orks/trolls/dwarves don't take a penalty at nighttime for being creatures that should be active at daytime and are instead awake at night. That's just a random penalty on them.

In addition to this, they take a penalty in that they have a mild allergy to sunlight. So if they're outside in daytime, or near a window or something, they're taking an additional penalty to everything they do, over and above their penalty just because the clock ticked over from 0559 to 0600.

And they get Unusual Hair (Colored Fur,) which is basically a specified form of Distinctive Style. That's, let me do the math here, +5, -10, -10, -5, for a grand point total of... -20.

And you're saying they should cost more than baseline elves?
ShadowDragon8685
Forgive my doublepost.
Udoshi
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jan 31 2012, 04:18 PM) *
And you're saying they should cost more than baseline elves?


I think he means Fomori and Ghoul specifically, and is falling victim to not being clear or concise.

Or trolling. But shh. Lets not be impolite to the disadvantaged metatypes.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jan 31 2012, 06:27 PM) *
I think he means Fomori and Ghoul specifically, and is falling victim to not being clear or concise.

Or trolling. But shh. Lets not be impolite to the disadvantaged metatypes.


Well, Fomori are crazy. They get Arcane Arrester and Metagenic Improvement (Body), with no mechanical drawbacks, and the social advantage of being shorter than baseline Trolls and a lot prettier, even if they don't get any maximum Charisma back.
Yerameyahu
Right; half the problem of *over*priced metavariants is in comparison to the extremely *under*priced ones. Sorry if that was unclear. smile.gif

But, as I said before that, I am *personally* fine with a rarity tax. Rare things *shouldn't* be anything near as common as the baselines, and the alternative is relying the players and GM to handle it. Having been on both sides of *that* mess [footnote 1], I'm happy letting the dispassionate numbers do it for me. I understand if your personal position differs from mine. smile.gif

Footnote 1: Oh man! One time I tried to GM a 'gritty, military D&D game, with very limited splats/options', and of course my player refused to play anything except a Tome of Battle Crusader, *spiked-chain* specialist, woman-pretending-to-be-a-man. Sigh.
snowRaven
If you are giving a 20 pt discount for every point of reduced stat, are you giving a 20(minimum...30 with the stat point itself) point addition for each added stat as well?
The Jake
Everyone is looking at this the wrong way it seems.

I pay the points to pay the Dryad because if I took SURGE-II to get Glamour that's 10BP of other qualities I can't take. And it cost more because any GM worth his salt knows people playing an elven face would love to have glamour, so yes, there is an additional tax to be paid.

Or in other words, I paid a premium so I could buy more Positive Qualities at chargen.

EDIT: That said, Fomorii are wrong. Not sure what they were thinking there...

- J.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Jan 31 2012, 08:22 PM) *
If you are giving a 20 pt discount for every point of reduced stat, are you giving a 20(minimum...30 with the stat point itself) point addition for each added stat as well?


For the last time, it's only twenty points. Metagenic Improvement (Attribute) raises the cap and the minimum. It's the same as the way an Ork starts with more Strength than a human and has a higher cap, too. And yes, I am.

Jake: I don't buy that. I don't buy that at all. As a player, I hate that nonsense, as a GM I will not abide by that nonsense. None of this "premium" bullshit. Equal points for equal effect.
Yerameyahu
I think his point is that it's not an equal effect, given that PQ/NQ caps are a resource.

It's pretty tricky to come up with 'perfect' values for everything. Is AGI worth more because it's more useful? Is WIL worth more because it's hard to raise otherwise? Which Quality bears comparison, when multiple ones might apply (Extraordinary Attrib vs. Metagenic Improvement)?

Another factor is that meta*variants* get innate access to Metagenic Qualities, but baseline metatypes do not. That's worth a surcharge if you ask me.

As for 'nonsense', it's hard to argue that players aren't (shouldn't be?) calculating these things in a mercenary way… in a thread about precisely valuing mechanical aspects and ignoring fluff ones.
Draco18s
QUOTE (The Jake @ Jan 31 2012, 08:30 PM) *
I pay the points to pay the Dryad because if I took SURGE-II to get Glamour that's 10BP of other qualities I can't take. And it cost more because any GM worth his salt knows people playing an elven face would love to have glamour, so yes, there is an additional tax to be paid.
EDIT: That said, Fomorii are wrong. Not sure what they were thinking there...


No one is arguing that dryads aren't over-priced, they're arguing that Formori are under-priced and that night ones are a complete and total ripoff.
UmaroVI
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jan 31 2012, 06:10 PM) *
Hey, Halley's Comet did not discriminate. Metavariants took it in the shorts from SURGE same as everyone else. It was an equal-opportunity life-changer. nyahnyah.gif


As for people having an improved stats, that's the same as the Metagenic Improvement (Attribute) from the Runner's Companion - a raise of both the default and maximum stats.


Anyway, here's my preliminaries. I'm still going to try to jigger the numbers to make some races more acceptable... I'm aiming for nobody having a price higher than the default price, but if the numbers say someone took it in the ass hard enough to bring them below (Orcs, I'm looking at you,) then I don't mind a discount.

Humans: 0 (Duh.)
+Nartaki: 10

Dwarf: 40 (Trying to bring it down)
+Gnome: 55
+Harumen: 45
+Koborokuru: 40
+Menehune: 45

Elf: 35 (Not sure I can justify bringing this down...)
+Dryad: 40
+Night Ones: 15 (Sweet Sol Invictus, Night Ones take it from Bubba the Love Troll.)
+Wakyambi: 45
+Xapiri Thp: 20 (They took it almost as hard. He used lube, I guess.)

Orks: 15 (They're overpriced by default, without even factoring in the social unacceptability of being an orc.)
+Hobgoblins: 10
+Ogre: 20
+Oni: 10
+Satyr: 20

Troll: 70 (I'm going to need to bring this down a lot. Thinking of making "too damn big" and "socially unacceptable" large point faux-flaws to put in their corner.)
+Cyclops: 80
+Formoi: 105 (Two high-dollar positive qualities and they're the Pretty Trolls? Yes please?)
+Giant: 80
+Minotaur:95


So, there you have it. At the base prices, Elves are slight bargains except for two metavariants who are badly overpriced. Orks and Ork metavariants are hugely over-priced. Dwarves are underpriced, and Trolls, especially Fomori, are less steals of a bargain and more like highway robbery.

I accomplished this math by pricing each reduction in maximum attribute at 20, instead of the 5 that is Impaired (Attribute,) because otherwise there's no way in the remotest layers of Malfeas and the farthest, strangest Metaplanes to make the numbers add-up even slightly. I also gave everyone a -30 point discount, to accommodate the fact that baseline Humans are basically Lucky by default and given a free 10-pt purchase of Edge. If something wasn't explicitly stated, I priced it at 5 - Troll's natural armor and their +5 movement was both 5, while Dwarves' -2 movement was also 5.

I'm not done, though. I need to come up with some mathematic contortion to bring trolls back into the realm of remotely acceptably priced for play - basically, I need to figure out how to knock another 20-30 points off. Shouldn't be too hard.


Your numbers are enormously messed up, because a reduction to a maximum attribute by 1 is not remotely worth 20 points. The difference between 1/5 logic and 1/6 logic only matters if you wanted Logic 5 or higher... and if you do, you don't play that metatype.

The numbers you came up with are loopy as heck as a result. Orks - already generally the best metatype - cost LESS than the core price. Dwarves, generally the worst, cost 40 points. What? Trolls are sure not worth 70, either.


Yerameyahu
Exactly; like I said, computing the values is a subjective process. People tend to choose the bonus/penalty combination that best fits their wants (I think it's called 'minmaxing' wink.gif ), so the 'objective' net is rarely important. That said, I totally have a spreadsheet that does *exactly* this kind of calculation for all the types, variants, and Infected. biggrin.gif It's a natural phase in a boy's life.

Long story short, *nothing* in the game seems to be 'correctly' priced. smile.gif Not metatypes, variants, paracritters, Infected, various Qualities, nothing. Alas.
Glyph
Trying to quantify metatypes purely by crunching the numbers doesn't really take the apples and oranges thing into account. Not every Attribute increase is equal. Elves are the only metatype that is disadvantaged, numbers-wise, compared to a human, but people still buy them because they have boosts to two of the more powerful Attributes. Trolls, by contrast, have bonuses that tend to put them into niche roles. A troll shaman usually won't get that much use out of Strength: 5. Not every lowered Attribute maximum is equal. An ork's slightly lower maximums won't matter too much if you are playing a street samurai whose non-Willpower mental stats hover around 2-3. Dwarves and trolls, by contrast, are really hurt by lowered maximums to Reaction and Agility, respectively.

Another thing to keep in mind is both that players will tend to cherry-pick the metatype that is most advantageous to a certain role, and that, despite this, metatypes are still usually not going to give you exactly what you want. They are a package deal.

The core book metatypes are very dissimilar, but are still fairly balanced. Not equal, at all, but balanced. They have their specialties, but can be played against the grain if you want to play something atypical like an elven pit fighter or a troll hacker. The trouble with the metavariants is that they are offshoots of the core metatypes, so differences in price really jump out at you. Some of them work out okay. They are a bit rarer and more distinctive, but have some extra advantages. Ogres, satyrs, and most of the dwarf and troll metavariants. Some, like nartaki and dryads, are opportunity cost purchases - you pay extra, but get some traits without having to dip into what you can spend on qualities. But there are also some that are great buys (mainly fomori), and some that are overpriced (like night ones, Xapiri thepe, and oni), because they are both more expensive and more disadvantaged than the base metatype.

Personally, I think you are better off tweaking metatype costs a tad, rather than completely re-working everything, but there's nothing wrong with the latter approach. That's one of the advantages of a point buy system - it is extremely easy to tweak by adjusting costs.
The Jake
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Feb 1 2012, 02:10 AM) *
For the last time, it's only twenty points. Metagenic Improvement (Attribute) raises the cap and the minimum. It's the same as the way an Ork starts with more Strength than a human and has a higher cap, too. And yes, I am.

Jake: I don't buy that. I don't buy that at all. As a player, I hate that nonsense, as a GM I will not abide by that nonsense. None of this "premium" bullshit. Equal points for equal effect.



Your comment makes nosense. So you'd rather NO way to exceed the 35BP cap?

That's a very easy, manual fix you can apply.

- J.
Jhaiisiin
So I know that recalculating the metatype costs have been done before. I've done it, as well as another poster here on the forums (though I always forget his darned name) Our results were fairly close, because we through out all the subjectivity. No "This stat is better than that stat" or anything. Everything had a purely mechanical cost, and the results were kind of nice. Some costs got *really* wonky that way, so they may need some tweaking (Loup garou, I'm looking at you mr. costs negative points)

Search fu should find the rehashes of this that have been done before.
Yerameyahu
I'm quite sure people could arrive at similar, convergent results by ignoring the subjective costs; I'm equally sure they'd be wrong. smile.gif It's just worth less to have +8 Str, -2 Agi than +*2* Agi, -2 Str. Still, they could easily be *better* than the current ones, so that's something!
Jhaiisiin
Regardless, in the BP build system, every stat is treated equally. Thus, the breakdowns that have occurred before have maintained this for consistency. Otherwise people get in a pissing match over just how much certain stats should cost. And then you have to rebalance the whole karma gen system as well as character advancement. It's not worth the headache to overhaul the entire system just because people think X stat is better than Y stat and should thus cost more to have/improve.
ElFenrir
QUOTE
In exchange for this lofty privilege, they take a nasty, probably underpriced, -10-point Quality in Nocturnal that means their Mental attributes get a straight-up penalty at daytime, no matter if they have any idea of the time. They just get it, because they should be sleeping then. Where does that come from, huh? Humans/elves/orks/trolls/dwarves don't take a penalty at nighttime for being creatures that should be active at daytime and are instead awake at night. That's just a random penalty on them.


I'm not sure where I stand on this one. You do take a hit in the daytime...but, I suppose it depends on the game-we don't often run during the daytime. Most stuff that we've done HAPPENS at night. I always felt kinda cheap when I picked it(okay, all of twice in my career.) It comes into play sometimes, but I also suppose(it does say that twilight activity is acceptable) it depends on the GM and when they say 'daytime' and 'nighttime' are. For us, we rule it that yes, you do suffer it in the winter in the North Pole, and no, you don't suffer it ALL THE TIME in the summer-we use time of day. Then again, the times we've actually been to the north pole are zero. grinbig.gif

That being said, we basically rule in reverse of a 'regular person' so to speak. From about 6 or so AM to 6 or so PM, you take the modifier(+/- 1 hour both ways so its 12, depending on how you like to work it). 6 PM to 6 AM, you're gravy. A Nocturnal dude could basically head to sleep around, say, 7 am(that last hour being like a diurnal person's tiredness late at night so they'd naturally be a bit fuzzy...I'm a little fuzzy right now writing this near bedtime), and maybe wake around 4 or so depending on how much sleep they get. Basically from 4-6 or so they're like a regular person waking up early who hasn't had their coffee yet and they're ready to roll after their 'morning' shower and paper when 6 PM rolls around.

It's still a fairly rough little negative quality(better hope you don't need to do any hard thinking or negotiating before 6PM), but I don't think it's worth more than 10, unless you play a full on daytime Shadowrun game where you mostly actually RUN during the daylight hours, in which case it should be worth much more, I imagine.

That being said, I do admit it's strange that a nocturnal person gets negatives during the daytime, but a diurnal person doesn't get any negatives at night unless the GM rules they hadn't slept in awhile. I also have known plenty of people who worked night shift and shift work(I myself used to work at a bar and often wouldn't get home until 4 in the morning), and I was quite sharp up until then since I had my schedule adjusted to compensate. Maybe being nocturnal messes with someone's system more. I don't know, I never met a genuinely nocturnal person(and if one existed it might be one of those 1 in 5 million things that end up on a documentary about 'How Bob handles being nocturnal.')

It's a bit of an offtopic-btw, I do agree Night Ones really get the short end of the stick. nyahnyah.gif
Yerameyahu
I fully agree, Jhaiisiin, but we're talking about something slightly (only slightly) different: even if everything is BP-balanced, people will still prefer the race with the 'better' bonuses. There will still be 'bargains' and 'overpriced' choices (even with absolutely identical 'net costs'), because those value differences absolutely exist. So, yes, you could theoretically hard-code that value directly into the chargen/advancement costs, but you can also *not* do that, while still acknowledging it in race costs.
Midas
I think snow raven and glyph nailed it, some attribute bonuses are "worth" more than others. If everyone played by the numbers, all characters would be ork ... and yet, they're not, people still choose a variety of metavariants. Despite their relatively high race cost we still see a lot of elf gun bunnies (that bonus to AGI), faces and shamans (ditto CHA). The only conclusion is that elves are not overpriced for the player who wants that edge in these roles, and that they're prepared to pay what you see as over the odds for this.

As for the bullshit about charging the equivalent of metagenic quality for the stat boosts, remember that these metatypes can also take metagenic improvement to further increase these attributes. Or are they banned from doing so in your house rule brew?

If you really want to revamp metavariants entirely based on the numbers and are charging humans with Lucky (20BP) and +1 Edge (10BP), you should charge Exceptional Attribute (20BP) for every increased attribute and reduce the number of positive and negative qualities available to metatypes from +35/-35 to whatever based on the metatype quality tally you've added up.

It doesn't really bother me that we aren't going to see much love for Night Ones or Oni, but all power to the player that chooses either of these metatypes to make an interesting character.
The Jake
QUOTE (Midas @ Feb 1 2012, 05:32 AM) *
I think snow raven and glyph nailed it, some attribute bonuses are "worth" more than others. If everyone played by the numbers, all characters would be ork ... and yet, they're not, people still choose a variety of metavariants. Despite their relatively high race cost we still see a lot of elf gun bunnies (that bonus to AGI), faces and shamans (ditto CHA). The only conclusion is that elves are not overpriced for the player who wants that edge in these roles, and that they're prepared to pay what you see as over the odds for this.

As for the bullshit about charging the equivalent of metagenic quality for the stat boosts, remember that these metatypes can also take metagenic improvement to further increase these attributes. Or are they banned from doing so in your house rule brew?

If you really want to revamp metavariants entirely based on the numbers and are charging humans with Lucky (20BP) and +1 Edge (10BP), you should charge Exceptional Attribute (20BP) for every increased attribute and reduce the number of positive and negative qualities available to metatypes from +35/-35 to whatever based on the metatype quality tally you've added up.

It doesn't really bother me that we aren't going to see much love for Night Ones or Oni, but all power to the player that chooses either of these metatypes to make an interesting character.


THIS.

Oh and since someone else has raised it, can someone please explain to me Loup Garou?? Why would you play one? They make nosense at all.

- J.
Mx
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Feb 1 2012, 02:10 AM) *
Orks: 15 (They're overpriced by default, without even factoring in the social unacceptability of being an orc.)

LOL, biggest joke of cost balancing i have ever read.
Orks are the best metatype for most builds allready with their default cost and you want to make them cheaper, i'm seriously rolling on the floor laughing my ass of.
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Feb 1 2012, 02:10 AM) *
I accomplished this math by pricing each reduction in maximum attribute at 20, instead of the 5 that is Impaired (Attribute,)

Ofcource this piece of horrible balance math explains it all.
Reduction to max isn't anywhere near worth -20, especially not if increased min and max is only +20.
unsound
Dude, ditto. Orks for 15 is seriously boinked, they are easily the best race numbers wise. Massive bonuses to Body and Strength (the latter actually being a useful attribute now with the introduction of softweave armor from War!), counterbalanced by reduced caps to two stats that most archetypes wouldn't even consider capping anyway? Yeah.

Sometimes too much math gives you the wrong answer. This is one o' them times.
Machiavelli
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 31 2012, 10:03 PM) *
And honestly, I'm fine with a rarity tax. We see way too many SURGE Fomori Ghoul mysads as it is. wink.gif

Are you talking about me or did somebody else had the same freakish idea?
UmaroVI
One of the principles I've discovered about shadowrun rules is that, to paraphrase Neil Stephenson, all areas of the rules are fractally messed up. If you look long enough at any one area of the rules, you'll discover it's just as messed up as the entire set of rules. You quickly run into that with metatypes, because you eventually discover that you can't fix the metatype prices because it is inextricably linked to some stats just being less useful than others (cough cough, Strength), weird breakpoint issues (+1 willpower is less than half as good as +2 willpower), weird corner case options (for example, just how useful IS having qualities that don't count towards your 35 bp max), and so on.

Fixing the metavariants inevitably runs into problems with the SURGE system being poorly thought out. SURGE lets you either be an X-Man, or overpay to be a chicken man. Some of the races just get shafted, but others (like Minotaurs) get very expensive chicken-man powers, and others (like Fomori) get superpowers. The problem is that the prices of SURGE qualities are not really related to the value of those qualities.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Feb 1 2012, 11:52 AM) *
Are you talking about me or did somebody else had the same freakish idea?

Several people made such a character(concept).
Usually with everything thrown in to make them less suspectible to magic.
Hmm, how would the own background count work with the natural magic from the ghoul part? O.o
UmaroVI
As a ghoul, you either take MysAd or Magician, or you burn yourself out and install cybereyes. Walking around with Dual Natured and no ranged astral attack is like being a sitting duck. A glowing sitting duck.
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