Human Gun Bunny, Search fail Options

[lunavoco]

I'm re-writing/creating a new set of sample antagonists. I find the ones printed in the book are not high powered enough for our groups. For Example, The Tir Ghost has a firearms DP of 15 if i'm reading it correctly (Agi 8 + Firearms G. 5 + SL 2), while my wife's rifle adept is rolling 18+ at chargen.

To this end, I'm building a replacement NPC with a target firearms DP of 24. The problem i'm experiencing is the Human AGI Attribute cap. I know Tir Ghosts are elves, but i'm building generics and want to start with humans. Karma and ¥ cosst are not a consideration.

So far I have a pool of 20 (AGI 9 + Skill 6 + Spec 2 + E. Artic 1 + Reflex Recorder 1 + S. Link 1)

Any ideas on how to get higher without genetic manipulation, alternate race choices, or magic?

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Enhanced Articulation adds no bonus to combat tests, only to "physical tests". Smartlink adds 2. A tacnet 4 would add 4 dice.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm re-writing/creating a new set of sample antagonists. I find the ones printed in the book are not high powered enough for our groups. For Example, The Tir Ghost has a firearms DP of 15 if i'm reading it correctly (Agi 8 + Firearms G. 5 + SL 2), while my wife's rifle adept is rolling 18+ at chargen.

To this end, I'm building a replacement NPC with a target firearms DP of 24. The problem i'm experiencing is the Human AGI Attribute cap. I know Tir Ghosts are elves, but i'm building generics and want to start with humans. Karma and ¥ cosst are not a consideration.

So far I have a pool of 20 (AGI 9 + Skill 6 + Spec 2 + E. Artic 1 + Reflex Recorder 1 + S. Link 1)

Any ideas on how to get higher without genetic manipulation, alternate race choices, or magic?

Just Curious, But How does your wife's Rifle Adept rationalize Skills at the level required for that? She is the Best of the best in the World? Really?

[Hamsnibit]

You could go up one points with Metagenetic Optimization (AGI) or the Aptitude Quality, but seriously what kind of "replacement" NPC raises so high in DP? Just asking out of curiousity.
As TJ said, the NPC would have to be the best of the best of the best out of a dozen people in the world.

While we are at it, you could make an infected, it adds up the dices even more and with infinite money and magic you can minimize the drawbacks so hard that they are merely nonexistent.

[thorya]

I'm re-writing/creating a new set of sample antagonists. I find the ones printed in the book are not high powered enough for our groups. For Example, The Tir Ghost has a firearms DP of 15 if i'm reading it correctly (Agi 8 + Firearms G. 5 + SL 2), while my wife's rifle adept is rolling 18+ at chargen.

To this end, I'm building a replacement NPC with a target firearms DP of 24. The problem i'm experiencing is the Human AGI Attribute cap. I know Tir Ghosts are elves, but i'm building generics and want to start with humans. Karma and ¥ cosst are not a consideration.

So far I have a pool of 20 (AGI 9 + Skill 6 + Spec 2 + E. Artic 1 + Reflex Recorder 1 + S. Link 1)

Any ideas on how to get higher without genetic manipulation, alternate race choices, or magic?

I've never seen a game where 15 DP wasn't enough to hit a PC, even a dodge ninja adept is still going to get tagged most of the time. And if it's still a problem, there is always automatic fire. Are you sure that you don't want to just give them better armor? But if you really want to push it higher go with the quality that raises skill maximum (exceptional skill maybe? AFB) and exceptional attribute or any of the equivalents from additional splat books. You can also maybe stack the reflex recorder for the skill with the reflex recorder for the skill group (normally I would say that your GM would probably call foul on that, but you're the GM so it should be good). Each of those should give you an additional 1.

[UmaroVI]

First, check my sig for a variety of example characters. The Gunslinger archetype is similar to what you are looking for, but is an augmented adept.

All the ways I can remember to jack your firearms aside from what you listed:

You can get Agility 10 with Exceptional Attribute.

As noted, Enhanced Articulation doesn't add to it, but Smartlink adds +2.

Aptitude for whatever type of firearms can get you to skill 7.

Do Infusions count as "genetic manipulation?" Sideways can get you +1.

I believe that's it.

[Xenefungus]

I think that a Tacnet is a very valid way to gain 4 additional dice for a member of an elite squad (and all the others in that team). Also good to show the group the benefits of having one (if they didnt invest in one yet) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

Just Curious, But How does your wife's Rifle Adept rationalize Skills at the level required for that? She is the Best of the best in the World? Really?

You dont really need that high of a skill rating for 18+ dice.
You can get Agility 15, meaning that a skill rating of 2 would give you 19 dice with a smartlinked gun.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Xenefungus]

Actually you can do without skill at all. Agi 15 -1 for defaulting, +4 for Tacnet, +2 for Smartgun. 20 dice. Easy as that. Never had a gun in hand before. Silly Shadowrun! ^_^"

Edit: I especially like that Tymeaus can't pull his usual arguments about "believeability" onto this :->

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

well, i think he can - how do you get to 15 AGI, and how rare is something with that amount of agility?

[Xenefungus]

Agi 15 is basic elf with all three of exceptional attribute, metagenetic improvement and genetic optimization who got installed a muscle toner 4 and the ware that gives +1 to all physical stats.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You dont really need that high of a skill rating for 18+ dice.
You can get Agility 15, meaning that a skill rating of 2 would give you 19 dice with a smartlinked gun.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Agility 15? Not at my table you don't. I have yet to see anyone with an agility above 9, and most are in the 7-8 Range for Specialists.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually you can do without skill at all. Agi 15 -1 for defaulting, +4 for Tacnet, +2 for Smartgun. 20 dice. Easy as that. Never had a gun in hand before. Silly Shadowrun! ^_^"

Edit: I especially like that Tymeaus can't pull his usual arguments about "believeability" onto this :->

It is exceedingly unbelievable. Agility 15? Really?

There, Done. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Never said it couldn't be done, just that it is exceedingly Munchkin and highly unbelievable for a Baseline starting Character.
It is incredibly dumb, in my opinion, and would never fly at the tablke I play at. It is not a realistic character. But there are those who would swear by the above build, so... *shrug*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Agi 15 is basic elf with all three of exceptional attribute, metagenetic improvement and genetic optimization who got installed a muscle toner 4 and the ware that gives +1 to all physical stats.

AND Maxed out his BP/Karma Expenditure to get there. One Trick Pony Much?

[Xenefungus]

I KNEW i could count on you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Let's hope this doesn't turn into yet another "ability only correlates to dicepool of which skill is only a (minor) factor" discussion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Also, of course i wouldn't do this because some of those points are bought really inefficiently. Just an elf with genetic optimization and Muscle Toner 4 is Agility 12, which is plenty (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Compensate for the missing 4 dice with skill 2 + spec and you are good again (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


..and yes, we all know your table is different Tymeaus. Different from ALL others (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I KNEW i could count on you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Let's hope this doesn't turn into yet another "ability only correlates to dicepool of which skill is only a (minor) factor" discussion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Indeed... The above build is strictly a Thought exercise about an extreme Edge case.
I would never expect to see one in actual play, nor would I allow one. *Shrug*

[Mäx]

AND Maxed out his BP/Karma Expenditure to get there. One Trick Pony Much?

If it was any other attribute then Agility then most likely yes, but simply defaulting to agility gives 14 dice to so many useful thinks thats it can be worth it.

[Xenefungus]

AND Maxed out his BP/Karma Expenditure to get there. One Trick Pony Much?

Actually, it wouldn't be a one trick pony as much as you might think because Agility IS _that_ important.

[lunavoco]

All: Corrected S. Link and E. Artic. Thanks! Also, TAC Net is a fantastic idea. Exactally the kind of bonus I was hoping for!

Just Curious, But How does your wife's Rifle Adept rationalize Skills at the level required for that? She is the Best of the best in the World? Really?

The games I learned SR on were run with a rather brutal interpretation of the system/setting. In the past, our mortality rate was close to 1 death/3 sessions. To compensate, the players learned to optimize their characters as best as possible. I've since amiably left that group for completely different reasons, and to their defense they never sacrificed their ability to role play for the optimization of their roll play.

The end answer to your question is this: we don't rationalize it. I could argue both sides of this against myself for hours (and have) but in the end we've decided to play with the most effective character we can and just ignore the sugested benchmarks for power levels.

Last i'll say on it: I have a hard time agreeing that skill level should judge a person's ranking in a skill, it should be DP. Agi 9 + Skill 6 = DP 15. Xenefungus has already posted one build showing a more effective shooter who's skill is 0. Anyways, not trying to start that argument...


Hamsnibit: Aptitude, got it.

Thorya: I think aptitude buffs the skill. Exceptional Attribute would get me to 10 AGI on a human. As far as stacking reflex recorder for individual skill and skill groups, I'm going to say no. It doesn't seem like they should stack given my understanding of what they are doing.

UmaroVI: I found your sig and link in another thread and checked out 2 of your gunslinger builds. I got a little confused while trying to decipher all of the bonuses. I loved the link though, and have it bookmarked! PS: Where is Sideways? Augmented?

Xenefungus : Agree 100%

Max: I would not allow purchasing Exceptional Atribute on the same attribute multiple times at my table. Don;t know about the rest because I'm not often in the genetic section of Augmented, or i have no idea what you'r refering too, whichever applies first and makes me seem less dumb (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

AND Maxed out his BP/Karma Expenditure to get there. One Trick Pony Much?

Seeing how fragging effective Agility as an Attribute is in SR4, no, not OTP at all.
Reasonably good at EVERYTHING that uses Agility as the linked Attribute.

You hard-max that and . . was it logic? And you have about 75% of all skills covered . .

[Mäx]

Max: I would not allow purchasing Exceptional Atribute on the same attribute multiple times at my table. Don;t know about the rest because I'm not often in the genetic section of Augmented, or i have no idea what you'r refering too, whichever applies first and makes me seem less dumb (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ofcource you cant take exceptional attribute more then once per stat.
Elfs start with a max of 7 Agility
exceptional attribute raises that to 8
metagenetic improvement raises it to 9
and genetic optimization raises it to 10

10 natural max in agility gives you an augmented max of 15 witch you can get by implanting Muscle Toner 4 and Suprathyroid Gland

[lunavoco]

Just skimmed Augmentation.

I now stand thusly:

Human top-most tier corporate asset DP: 22
AGI 11 + Skill 6 + S. Link 2 + Spec 2 + Reflex Rec. 1 + Sideways 1

This includes Genetic Optimization and Exception Attribute for AGI, and assumes that the owning corp has figured out a way to have Sideways made permanant.

Goal reached.

I rationalized Exceptional Attribute and Aptitude by saying that only the truly gifted reach this level. Good Enough. I'll remember the TAC Net when i make the tech based archtype.

[lunavoco]

Ofcource you cant take exceptional attribute more then once per stat.
Elfs start with a max of 7 Agility
exceptional attribute raises that to 8
metagenetic improvement raises it to 9
and genetic optimization raises it to 10

10 natural max in agility gives you an augmented max of 15 witch you can get by implanting Muscle Toner 4 and Suprathyroid Gland

Ah. You're recalculating the augmented maximum after enhancing the natural maximum. I didn't catch that fine distinction and interplay. Got it.

[Udoshi]

If you're interested, I'm fairly sure I can make a samurai that reaches this level of badassery through ware.

Samurai's kind of need a little love in the current system.

[lunavoco]

If you're interested, I'm fairly sure I can make a samurai that reaches this level of badassery through ware.

Samurai's kind of need a little love in the current system.

Absolutely!

Restraints: Human. No Magic. No genetic manipultaion. No combat drugs. All bonues must be permanat (things that work like the adrenaline gland are close enough.) Cannot rely on team mates for bonus (eg: no TAC Net)

Must reach and sustain combat skill DP at 24 for reasonable duration (at least most of the combat.)