I'm re-writing/creating a new set of sample antagonists. I find the ones printed in the book are not high powered enough for our groups. For Example, The Tir Ghost has a firearms DP of 15 if i'm reading it correctly (Agi 8 + Firearms G. 5 + SL 2), while my wife's rifle adept is rolling 18+ at chargen.

To this end, I'm building a replacement NPC with a target firearms DP of 24. The problem i'm experiencing is the Human AGI Attribute cap. I know Tir Ghosts are elves, but i'm building generics and want to start with humans. Karma and ¥ cosst are not a consideration.

So far I have a pool of 20 (AGI 9 + Skill 6 + Spec 2 + E. Artic 1 + Reflex Recorder 1 + S. Link 1)

Any ideas on how to get higher without genetic manipulation, alternate race choices, or magic?

Enhanced Articulation adds no bonus to combat tests, only to "physical tests". Smartlink adds 2. A tacnet 4 would add 4 dice.

Just Curious, But How does your wife's Rifle Adept rationalize Skills at the level required for that? She is the Best of the best in the World? Really?

You could go up one points with Metagenetic Optimization (AGI) or the Aptitude Quality, but seriously what kind of "replacement" NPC raises so high in DP? Just asking out of curiousity.
As TJ said, the NPC would have to be the best of the best of the best out of a dozen people in the world.

While we are at it, you could make an infected, it adds up the dices even more and with infinite money and magic you can minimize the drawbacks so hard that they are merely nonexistent.

I've never seen a game where 15 DP wasn't enough to hit a PC, even a dodge ninja adept is still going to get tagged most of the time. And if it's still a problem, there is always automatic fire. Are you sure that you don't want to just give them better armor? But if you really want to push it higher go with the quality that raises skill maximum (exceptional skill maybe? AFB) and exceptional attribute or any of the equivalents from additional splat books. You can also maybe stack the reflex recorder for the skill with the reflex recorder for the skill group (normally I would say that your GM would probably call foul on that, but you're the GM so it should be good). Each of those should give you an additional 1.

First, check my sig for a variety of example characters. The Gunslinger archetype is similar to what you are looking for, but is an augmented adept.

All the ways I can remember to jack your firearms aside from what you listed:

You can get Agility 10 with Exceptional Attribute.

As noted, Enhanced Articulation doesn't add to it, but Smartlink adds +2.

Aptitude for whatever type of firearms can get you to skill 7.

Do Infusions count as "genetic manipulation?" Sideways can get you +1.

I believe that's it.

I think that a Tacnet is a very valid way to gain 4 additional dice for a member of an elite squad (and all the others in that team). Also good to show the group the benefits of having one (if they didnt invest in one yet)

You dont really need that high of a skill rating for 18+ dice.
You can get Agility 15, meaning that a skill rating of 2 would give you 19 dice with a smartlinked gun.

Actually you can do without skill at all. Agi 15 -1 for defaulting, +4 for Tacnet, +2 for Smartgun. 20 dice. Easy as that. Never had a gun in hand before. Silly Shadowrun! ^_^"

Edit: I especially like that Tymeaus can't pull his usual arguments about "believeability" onto this :->

well, i think he can - how do you get to 15 AGI, and how rare is something with that amount of agility?

Agi 15 is basic elf with all three of exceptional attribute, metagenetic improvement and genetic optimization who got installed a muscle toner 4 and the ware that gives +1 to all physical stats.

Agility 15? Not at my table you don't. I have yet to see anyone with an agility above 9, and most are in the 7-8 Range for Specialists.

It is exceedingly unbelievable. Agility 15? Really?

There, Done.

Never said it couldn't be done, just that it is exceedingly Munchkin and highly unbelievable for a Baseline starting Character.
It is incredibly dumb, in my opinion, and would never fly at the tablke I play at. It is not a realistic character. But there are those who would swear by the above build, so... *shrug*

AND Maxed out his BP/Karma Expenditure to get there. One Trick Pony Much?

I KNEW i could count on you

Let's hope this doesn't turn into yet another "ability only correlates to dicepool of which skill is only a (minor) factor" discussion


Also, of course i wouldn't do this because some of those points are bought really inefficiently. Just an elf with genetic optimization and Muscle Toner 4 is Agility 12, which is plenty Compensate for the missing 4 dice with skill 2 + spec and you are good again


..and yes, we all know your table is different Tymeaus. Different from ALL others

Indeed... The above build is strictly a Thought exercise about an extreme Edge case.
I would never expect to see one in actual play, nor would I allow one. *Shrug*

If it was any other attribute then Agility then most likely yes, but simply defaulting to agility gives 14 dice to so many useful thinks thats it can be worth it.

Actually, it wouldn't be a one trick pony as much as you might think because Agility IS _that_ important.

All: Corrected S. Link and E. Artic. Thanks! Also, TAC Net is a fantastic idea. Exactally the kind of bonus I was hoping for!


The games I learned SR on were run with a rather brutal interpretation of the system/setting. In the past, our mortality rate was close to 1 death/3 sessions. To compensate, the players learned to optimize their characters as best as possible. I've since amiably left that group for completely different reasons, and to their defense they never sacrificed their ability to role play for the optimization of their roll play.

The end answer to your question is this: we don't rationalize it. I could argue both sides of this against myself for hours (and have) but in the end we've decided to play with the most effective character we can and just ignore the sugested benchmarks for power levels.

Last i'll say on it: I have a hard time agreeing that skill level should judge a person's ranking in a skill, it should be DP. Agi 9 + Skill 6 = DP 15. Xenefungus has already posted one build showing a more effective shooter who's skill is 0. Anyways, not trying to start that argument...


Hamsnibit: Aptitude, got it.

Thorya: I think aptitude buffs the skill. Exceptional Attribute would get me to 10 AGI on a human. As far as stacking reflex recorder for individual skill and skill groups, I'm going to say no. It doesn't seem like they should stack given my understanding of what they are doing.

UmaroVI: I found your sig and link in another thread and checked out 2 of your gunslinger builds. I got a little confused while trying to decipher all of the bonuses. I loved the link though, and have it bookmarked! PS: Where is Sideways? Augmented?

Xenefungus : Agree 100%

Max: I would not allow purchasing Exceptional Atribute on the same attribute multiple times at my table. Don;t know about the rest because I'm not often in the genetic section of Augmented, or i have no idea what you'r refering too, whichever applies first and makes me seem less dumb

Seeing how fragging effective Agility as an Attribute is in SR4, no, not OTP at all.
Reasonably good at EVERYTHING that uses Agility as the linked Attribute.

You hard-max that and . . was it logic? And you have about 75% of all skills covered . .

Ofcource you cant take exceptional attribute more then once per stat.
Elfs start with a max of 7 Agility
exceptional attribute raises that to 8
metagenetic improvement raises it to 9
and genetic optimization raises it to 10

10 natural max in agility gives you an augmented max of 15 witch you can get by implanting Muscle Toner 4 and Suprathyroid Gland

Just skimmed Augmentation.

I now stand thusly:

Human top-most tier corporate asset DP: 22
AGI 11 + Skill 6 + S. Link 2 + Spec 2 + Reflex Rec. 1 + Sideways 1

This includes Genetic Optimization and Exception Attribute for AGI, and assumes that the owning corp has figured out a way to have Sideways made permanant.

Goal reached.

I rationalized Exceptional Attribute and Aptitude by saying that only the truly gifted reach this level. Good Enough. I'll remember the TAC Net when i make the tech based archtype.

Ah. You're recalculating the augmented maximum after enhancing the natural maximum. I didn't catch that fine distinction and interplay. Got it.

If you're interested, I'm fairly sure I can make a samurai that reaches this level of badassery through ware.

Samurai's kind of need a little love in the current system.

Absolutely!

Restraints: Human. No Magic. No genetic manipultaion. No combat drugs. All bonues must be permanat (things that work like the adrenaline gland are close enough.) Cannot rely on team mates for bonus (eg: no TAC Net)

Must reach and sustain combat skill DP at 24 for reasonable duration (at least most of the combat.)

doo eet . .
show us a gunomancer!

Agility 10(exceptional attribute to raise the aug max to that)
Skill 8(Aptitude + reflex recorder)
=18 base
Smartlink +2
Specialization +2
=22 and as high as you can get with the tight limits you set.
Genetic optimazation would raise the agility max to 12 and get us to that 24 dice

I'm happy to answer any questions.

Sideways is in Augmentation.

Off the top of my head in no particular order: Going for a more of a biosam. Not pulling the punches on the raw-abuse just because sammies are kinda underpowered compared to other archetypes.

Elf. Genetic optimization: agility raises augmented max to 12. Muscle toner 4 takes care of the rest.
(But a superthyroid + vegsin will take care of the the hardmax tax at no lifestyle increase)
Reflex Recorder: Firearms group + Reflex Recorder: Automatics + Automatics spec and skill at 6 brings skiill to 8:+2
12+8 = 20. Close enough.
Tacnet and smartlink to flavor. I've recently realized that Ocular Drones are actually really really good. When you have drones for eyes, you can count em towards a tacnet, which is awesome. A tacnet 4 running on an Optimized commlink is worth 5 dice.

My other favorite build is making skillwires good.
A skillwire at 4, running Overdrive at 3 with Personalized and a Focus Reality Amplifier is actually really, really good. Since cyberware has a device rating, and the commlink mod rules state that all electronic devices(not JUST comms), have modslots, then you can hardware optimize the skillwire(or more likely movebywire) to run a particular program at +1 dice. What you want that skill to be is kind of up to you.
That nets you 5-9 dice on a skill for pure money, depending on how you play it, is pretty good. Throw in a skillwire expert system, and you're good to go.
The kicker though, comes with specs. Specializations are a dice pool modifier that applies to any given test they are valid for.
Skillwares(all types) are interesting because they do something special. (4a 330): When a skill test is called for, the character may use the skillsoft rating in place of an appropriate skill. If the character already possesses the skill, use whichever rating is higher.
lets use Automatics as an example. This means yoiu're still rolling an Opposed Agility + Automatics Test, that you declared in step 3a of the action phase, but you're swapping a different # for automatics. (also see opposed test notation 64)
From the FAQ, we know that the example specializations in the book aren't the only ones and we can make up our own.
Combining the two, we us the skill of Automatics 1: Skillwires +2. Or activesofts, whichever.

If you ever get hacked, you're screwed, but if you want to play major kusanagi type: a human so adept to being a machine that they EXCEL with it, this is how you do it. There's actually a benefit to having both the skill and the wire.

Agility as before, or using an customized cyberlimb to hit the augmented max agility (genetic optimization does help here) you have the same agility component of the dice pool, plus a better skill.

Best part?
No surge involved. Just cold metal, like a good sammy should be.

not bad O.o

I'm not convinced Overdriven skillsolfts are worth it. You're going to a lot of trouble to get 2 more dice (skill 7, versus skillsoft 5 + overdrive 3 + personalized 1). Focus Reality Amplifier fixes the "distraction"... but every time you turn it on, you get to make an Edge (3) test or you fry the skillsoft and crit glitch any time you use it until you repair it. That's terrible.

Also, Reflex Recorders explicitly say they don't stack with other Reflex Recorders.

Drones count as contributing members of a Tac net. So she could still use one even if she's the only "character" with one. The amount of bonus is then only limited by what she, the GM and the game are comfortable with.

She could have a loyal robot dog companion and a small hover drone that flies overwatch. I don't think many would argue thats out of line though it means keeping track of more things in combat. Loose drones can be a big liability for non-rigger characters. (Heck they're still liabilities for riggers)

Another option is wearable micro drones, or pilot and sensor upgrades to her smartgun/s. If allowed these can be hardwired together through a skinlink or data cables making the network almost uncrackable. The level you take this is again matter of play style.

Most games could handle a professional using a highly modified rifle and a electronics warfare pack mounted on her shoulder to provide a moderate
(+1) boost to her pools. Call it a sota smartgun.

My own desire to play a Narataki with 3 or 4 Ares predators each with their own personality is pretty gonzo. But my freinds and I like gonzo. (actually we like all the Muppets) And it's just to replace the (+2) bonus smartguns lose when you fire multiple guns at once.

Hiding 6 overmodified microdrones in your clothing. Then using an optimized commlink to squeeze an insane (+5) bonus out of a rating 4 tacnet. That's pretty twinky, but if it's how you roll go for it.

Personally, I'm kind of a fan of the iBall pocket-buddy as a tacnet booster, since its about the size of a small grenade. Give it gecko tips so it can stay snagged to gear harness or whatever, and an improved sensor suite, and as many wallhacking sensors as you can(UwB, camera with ultrasound, cyberware scanner, NLJD, stuff like that) and it does wonders for your situational awareness while contributing good number of channels.

Its kind of like the strap on sensor packages the tacnet rules mention, but taken to the next level.