Hackers vs Technomancers, 400 BP. Options

[SincereAgape]

Still getting the feel for hacking. It is the only portion of the game that still seems confusing in a mechanical way. The best way to learn is to play or create a hacking based character.

Trying to find out more information.

Hackers vs. Technomancers.

The general feel that I get is that Hackers start off as better wizards of the wireless matrix aka better at hacking, but Technomancers have the greater upside? At least in terms of hacking. Technomancers are good at drone/rigging/hacking because their main speciality seems to lie in hacking. Hackers on the other hand can invest in cyberware to become more combat oriented characters.

To me, Technomancers seemed gimped compared to hackers in all aspects of the game. Outside of threading and summoning sprites, Technomancers seem to underperform compared to hackers.

Is this true? Any help would be appreciated for a confused player/GM.

[Yerameyahu]

No, that's all more or less right.

[bobbaganoosh]

I, too, agree. However, Threading and Sprites are very powerful, as long as you make sure to get 6 Resonance and good skill ratings, as well as a good Fading resistance pool.

[Yerameyahu]

That's really saying a lot, though. At chargen, they simply have to focus like crazy, both by investing in Resonance, and by narrowing their applications. It encourages a lot of minmaxing, too. I guess Udoshi's testing out some modified rules intended to smooth out that curve, I'd inquire. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

At any rate, the way to learn about hacking is to start with a normal hacker first.

[bibliophile20]

as for those modified rules, they've been working out quite well in my game, but I've modified them further to suit my own style of play.

[Midas]

With threading and sprites, technomancers have the potential to do things hackers can only dream of. But, as other posters have said technomancers are hugely BP-intensive and have to pretty much start off as one trick ponies.

I would second yerameyahu's advice to start with a hacker as the matrix rules are hard enough without all the technomancer tricks as well. One possibility is the Adept hacker - Improve Technical Skill is cheap PP-wise (0.25PP) and can boost hacking skills to up to 50% the base skill (i.e. skill at 6, Improve 3, total 9; skill at 4, improve 2, total 6).

If you are planning to do VR hacking you do not need initiative pass boosting cyberware (Wired Reflexes, Synaptic Booster, MBW), if you are planning AR hacking you probably do.

Good luck!

[PoliteMan]

The general feel that I get is that Hackers start off as better wizards of the wireless matrix aka better at hacking, but Technomancers have the greater upside?

Yes...but it can take technos a lot longer to catch up with hackers than the typical mundane-Awakened dynamic. Hackers simply have a lot of room to expand post-chargen and that makes it tougher for Technos to catch up, especially if they want to develop any skills outside the Matrix.

Hackers basically have three areas to keep building post chargen.
1. DP and IP boosters: PuSHeD, Encephelon, Simsense Accelerator, Overdrive. Hackers simply have a lot of ware an upgrades they can pick up as the game goes on and most of it is cheap enough that they can steadily upgrade their stuff.
2. Cool gear: Botnets, Psychotropic options, Nexi. Basically, theres a lot of cool gear that doesn't necessarily make hackers better but gives them new options and lets them do things they simply couldn't before.
3. Military-grade software/hardware: War! is hated enough that this probably doesn't come up a lot but there no RAW reason a hacker can't code military grade software and given what some high-karma technomancers can do there's a point where it doesn't make sense to disallow it.

I think technos are less about being "matrix gods" and more about having a few powerful unique abilities. Technos get to explore the Resonance Realms and submerge and all that cool stuff, but for the basic job of cracking a node it takes technos a long time to catch up.

[Aerospider]

Outside of threading and summoning sprites, Technomancers seem to underperform compared to hackers.

And have you noticed how magicians are a waste of points if you ignore all that sorcery, conjury and enchanting stuff ...?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Udoshi]

That's really saying a lot, though. At chargen, they simply have to focus like crazy, both by investing in Resonance, and by narrowing their applications. It encourages a lot of minmaxing, too. I guess Udoshi's testing out some modified rules intended to smooth out that curve, I'd inquire. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

At any rate, the way to learn about hacking is to start with a normal hacker first.

Sure am.

Basically technos are even more expensive than mages are, and don't have anywhere near the real world utility.


Out of the door at 400bp, hackers win every time. 5 passes? Check. Effectively threading everything to 4-6 due to logic-linked skill bonuses? Check. Spending a 100th of the cost a techno pays for a rating 5-6 commlink? Check. Having enough points to branch into a secondary role? Check.

[UmaroVI]

Okay, no, everyone appears to have it backwards.

Technomancers can be built one of two ways: they can be bad at things outside the matrix and bad at the matrix, or they can be awful at things outside the matrix and win very hard at the matrix. A technomancer can start out better at hacking than any hacker can ever hope to be.

Hackers can be built one of two ways: they can be really great (but less good than a technomancer) at the matrix and awful at things outside the matrix, or great at the matrix and still have points and stuff left over to be good at other things.

So, in other words, the balance is that technomancers end up losing at everything besides hacking and rigging (unless you use the stupid empathy software rules, in which case they win at face too), but win at the matrix. Hackers get to be generalists who can balance coming in 2nd place in the matrix with coming in 2nd place in something else like physical combat.

For some examples, look at my sig, and compare the technomancers to the various hacker hybrid characters.

For examples of the first type of hacker and the first type of technomancer, ie, bad ones, look at the SR4A sample characters.

[Yerameyahu]

I think that's what I said, UmaroVI. However, even the super-hacker chargen Techno will have far fewer programs than the mundane hacker: narrow focus, like I mentioned.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

And the super chargen Techno will have 2 IP less at chargen, whereas the hacker can have a R6 commlink w/ simsense accelerator, simsense booster, all programs @ 6, +6 to all logic linked skills through ware and still BP/Karma left to do other things with - he just spent the 50BP/100 Karma of his resources and a 80 BP / 110 Karma (= 2* Skillgroup 4) on skills.

If you allow pirated software, the hacker should also have a warez connection and skillwires.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, not *at* chargen; many of those beat the Avail limit. But soon after, sure.

[UmaroVI]

I think that's what I said, UmaroVI. However, even the super-hacker chargen Techno will have far fewer programs than the mundane hacker: narrow focus, like I mentioned.

I thought you were agreeing with the crowd, if not, my apologies.

The thing with the "narrow focus" idea is that programs are not equally useful. Medic is not even in the same ballpark as Stealth. Browse is something you can get sprites to do. Being able to do key things very, very well and other things meh OK is better than being average at everything.

[Warlordtheft]

To me, Technomancers seemed gimped compared to hackers in all aspects of the game. Outside of threading and summoning sprites, Technomancers seem to underperform compared to hackers.

Is this true? Any help would be appreciated for a confused player/GM.

Technomancers are behind the hackers in most senses, except that they can call sprites and cause binding them cost no essense they should always have some available in addition to being able to have 1 on the fly. The down side to this is that is could result in fading damage. Hackers on the other hand (and sticking to Raw here) only need the right skills and programs. WHich if you go for a full suite of programs could get costly, as you could easily spend 100K on top of the line programs. Most of the time a rating 3 program with a decent skill should get you through.

[Yerameyahu]

UmaroVI, I just think you hyperbolized a little there. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Technos can be very good at very narrow matrix options (or, they can capitulate everything to sprites), but it's probably an overstatement that they can be, at chargen, 'better than hackers could ever hope'. PoliteMan mentioned a lot of the hacker-creep examples.

Now, maybe the rest of us are ourselves overstating the Techno limitations… but not by much. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It also depends whether you even need matrix abilities at X level; in many cases, 'good' at many things is more than enough (hack-in-a-box!). Novahots head to head? Maybe not.

On the plus side, Technos have less need for their cash than the hackers, though they have basically nothing to spend it on. Hehe.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Well, not *at* chargen; many of those beat the Avail limit. But soon after, sure.

Restricted gear is your friend - only the simsense accelerator (AV 14-) and the R6 response Chip (AV 14-) beat the normal limit - R6 hacking programs without any options have AV 12R. Simsense Booster, Encephalon 2, PuSHeD, Neocortical Nanites 3, and a Nanohive 1 are all at AV12 or lower, also a skillwire system 3.

[UmaroVI]

PoliteMan mentioned a lot of the hacker-creep examples.

PoliteMan is quite wrong, though, because his conclusion was that at the basic action of hacking a node, technomancers take a while to catch up. That's nonsense - technomancers start out better at hacking nodes than hackers, and continue to get better than hackers at that.

[Neurosis]

I thought you were agreeing with the crowd, if not, my apologies.

The thing with the "narrow focus" idea is that programs are not equally useful. Medic is not even in the same ballpark as Stealth. Browse is something you can get sprites to do. Being able to do key things very, very well and other things meh OK is better than being average at everything.

I think if you take any two players with roughly equivalent system mastery, and have one try to build a hacker-qua-hacker who is a technomancer, and the other try to build a hacker-qua-hacker who isn't a technomancer, the non-technomancer character will be more effective roughly half of the time.

[UmaroVI]

That's probably true if the roughly equal system mastery is below a certain point - judging by the SR4A sample characters, at least - but it eventually stops being true. The reason is that to make a good technomancer, you have to know what things are important (Stealth, for example) and what things are not important (Medic), and what things you can outsource to sprites for no meaningful cost (Browse). You can make your hacker more efficient by knowing what to prioritize, but the difference is much less stark.

[Yerameyahu]

I didn't say everything PoliteMan said was right (or wrong); I said he mentioned a number of powerful options hackers have. This isn't a fight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, NiL, Restricted Gear is an ugly waste of BP. You're right to correct my use of 'many', though; I was thinking R6 programs were higher. I guess I'm used to Options.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

PoliteMan is quite wrong, though, because his conclusion was that at the basic action of hacking a node, technomancers take a while to catch up. That's nonsense - technomancers start out better at hacking nodes than hackers, and continue to get better than hackers at that.

I don't know, UmaroVI, The ability to start with almost twice the passes of the Technomancer is a powerful thing.

[UmaroVI]

It does sound nice, but it isn't that great. The value of 5 passes over 3 passes is tiny compared to the value of 3 over 1, doubly so in the matrix. First, of course, triple the actions versus 5/3 the actions. Second, those extra actions go last. That means there's a good chance that the important stuff has already happened. Third, on the matrix, passes are not uber-important when hacking because a lot of hacking is about not getting caught, which Technomancers are just better at.

[Draco18s]

Here's a simple image to help you out:

http://www.imgplace.com/img828/2858/75technos.png

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

I didn't say everything PoliteMan said was right (or wrong); I said he mentioned a number of powerful options hackers have. This isn't a fight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No, NiL, Restricted Gear is an ugly waste of BP. You're right to correct my use of 'many', though; I was thinking R6 programs were higher. I guess I'm used to Options.

Well, every char i play has restricted gear at least once - but usually for things like a MBW2 or a suprathyroid gland ... or both. (And my GM normally doesn't give that much money for jobs, i could not afford a mbw2 ingame)