Still getting the feel for hacking. It is the only portion of the game that still seems confusing in a mechanical way. The best way to learn is to play or create a hacking based character.

Trying to find out more information.

Hackers vs. Technomancers.

The general feel that I get is that Hackers start off as better wizards of the wireless matrix aka better at hacking, but Technomancers have the greater upside? At least in terms of hacking. Technomancers are good at drone/rigging/hacking because their main speciality seems to lie in hacking. Hackers on the other hand can invest in cyberware to become more combat oriented characters.

To me, Technomancers seemed gimped compared to hackers in all aspects of the game. Outside of threading and summoning sprites, Technomancers seem to underperform compared to hackers.

Is this true? Any help would be appreciated for a confused player/GM.

No, that's all more or less right.

I, too, agree. However, Threading and Sprites are very powerful, as long as you make sure to get 6 Resonance and good skill ratings, as well as a good Fading resistance pool.

That's really saying a lot, though. At chargen, they simply have to focus like crazy, both by investing in Resonance, and by narrowing their applications. It encourages a lot of minmaxing, too. I guess Udoshi's testing out some modified rules intended to smooth out that curve, I'd inquire.

At any rate, the way to learn about hacking is to start with a normal hacker first.

as for those modified rules, they've been working out quite well in my game, but I've modified them further to suit my own style of play.

With threading and sprites, technomancers have the potential to do things hackers can only dream of. But, as other posters have said technomancers are hugely BP-intensive and have to pretty much start off as one trick ponies.

I would second yerameyahu's advice to start with a hacker as the matrix rules are hard enough without all the technomancer tricks as well. One possibility is the Adept hacker - Improve Technical Skill is cheap PP-wise (0.25PP) and can boost hacking skills to up to 50% the base skill (i.e. skill at 6, Improve 3, total 9; skill at 4, improve 2, total 6).

If you are planning to do VR hacking you do not need initiative pass boosting cyberware (Wired Reflexes, Synaptic Booster, MBW), if you are planning AR hacking you probably do.

Good luck!

Yes...but it can take technos a lot longer to catch up with hackers than the typical mundane-Awakened dynamic. Hackers simply have a lot of room to expand post-chargen and that makes it tougher for Technos to catch up, especially if they want to develop any skills outside the Matrix.

Hackers basically have three areas to keep building post chargen.
1. DP and IP boosters: PuSHeD, Encephelon, Simsense Accelerator, Overdrive. Hackers simply have a lot of ware an upgrades they can pick up as the game goes on and most of it is cheap enough that they can steadily upgrade their stuff.
2. Cool gear: Botnets, Psychotropic options, Nexi. Basically, theres a lot of cool gear that doesn't necessarily make hackers better but gives them new options and lets them do things they simply couldn't before.
3. Military-grade software/hardware: War! is hated enough that this probably doesn't come up a lot but there no RAW reason a hacker can't code military grade software and given what some high-karma technomancers can do there's a point where it doesn't make sense to disallow it.

I think technos are less about being "matrix gods" and more about having a few powerful unique abilities. Technos get to explore the Resonance Realms and submerge and all that cool stuff, but for the basic job of cracking a node it takes technos a long time to catch up.

And have you noticed how magicians are a waste of points if you ignore all that sorcery, conjury and enchanting stuff ...?

Sure am.

Basically technos are even more expensive than mages are, and don't have anywhere near the real world utility.


Out of the door at 400bp, hackers win every time. 5 passes? Check. Effectively threading everything to 4-6 due to logic-linked skill bonuses? Check. Spending a 100th of the cost a techno pays for a rating 5-6 commlink? Check. Having enough points to branch into a secondary role? Check.

Okay, no, everyone appears to have it backwards.

Technomancers can be built one of two ways: they can be bad at things outside the matrix and bad at the matrix, or they can be awful at things outside the matrix and win very hard at the matrix. A technomancer can start out better at hacking than any hacker can ever hope to be.

Hackers can be built one of two ways: they can be really great (but less good than a technomancer) at the matrix and awful at things outside the matrix, or great at the matrix and still have points and stuff left over to be good at other things.

So, in other words, the balance is that technomancers end up losing at everything besides hacking and rigging (unless you use the stupid empathy software rules, in which case they win at face too), but win at the matrix. Hackers get to be generalists who can balance coming in 2nd place in the matrix with coming in 2nd place in something else like physical combat.

For some examples, look at my sig, and compare the technomancers to the various hacker hybrid characters.

For examples of the first type of hacker and the first type of technomancer, ie, bad ones, look at the SR4A sample characters.

I think that's what I said, UmaroVI. However, even the super-hacker chargen Techno will have far fewer programs than the mundane hacker: narrow focus, like I mentioned.

And the super chargen Techno will have 2 IP less at chargen, whereas the hacker can have a R6 commlink w/ simsense accelerator, simsense booster, all programs @ 6, +6 to all logic linked skills through ware and still BP/Karma left to do other things with - he just spent the 50BP/100 Karma of his resources and a 80 BP / 110 Karma (= 2* Skillgroup 4) on skills.

If you allow pirated software, the hacker should also have a warez connection and skillwires.

Well, not *at* chargen; many of those beat the Avail limit. But soon after, sure.

I thought you were agreeing with the crowd, if not, my apologies.

The thing with the "narrow focus" idea is that programs are not equally useful. Medic is not even in the same ballpark as Stealth. Browse is something you can get sprites to do. Being able to do key things very, very well and other things meh OK is better than being average at everything.

Technomancers are behind the hackers in most senses, except that they can call sprites and cause binding them cost no essense they should always have some available in addition to being able to have 1 on the fly. The down side to this is that is could result in fading damage. Hackers on the other hand (and sticking to Raw here) only need the right skills and programs. WHich if you go for a full suite of programs could get costly, as you could easily spend 100K on top of the line programs. Most of the time a rating 3 program with a decent skill should get you through.

UmaroVI, I just think you hyperbolized a little there. Technos can be very good at very narrow matrix options (or, they can capitulate everything to sprites), but it's probably an overstatement that they can be, at chargen, 'better than hackers could ever hope'. PoliteMan mentioned a lot of the hacker-creep examples.

Now, maybe the rest of us are ourselves overstating the Techno limitations… but not by much. It also depends whether you even need matrix abilities at X level; in many cases, 'good' at many things is more than enough (hack-in-a-box!). Novahots head to head? Maybe not.

On the plus side, Technos have less need for their cash than the hackers, though they have basically nothing to spend it on. Hehe.

Restricted gear is your friend - only the simsense accelerator (AV 14-) and the R6 response Chip (AV 14-) beat the normal limit - R6 hacking programs without any options have AV 12R. Simsense Booster, Encephalon 2, PuSHeD, Neocortical Nanites 3, and a Nanohive 1 are all at AV12 or lower, also a skillwire system 3.

PoliteMan is quite wrong, though, because his conclusion was that at the basic action of hacking a node, technomancers take a while to catch up. That's nonsense - technomancers start out better at hacking nodes than hackers, and continue to get better than hackers at that.

I think if you take any two players with roughly equivalent system mastery, and have one try to build a hacker-qua-hacker who is a technomancer, and the other try to build a hacker-qua-hacker who isn't a technomancer, the non-technomancer character will be more effective roughly half of the time.

That's probably true if the roughly equal system mastery is below a certain point - judging by the SR4A sample characters, at least - but it eventually stops being true. The reason is that to make a good technomancer, you have to know what things are important (Stealth, for example) and what things are not important (Medic), and what things you can outsource to sprites for no meaningful cost (Browse). You can make your hacker more efficient by knowing what to prioritize, but the difference is much less stark.

I didn't say everything PoliteMan said was right (or wrong); I said he mentioned a number of powerful options hackers have. This isn't a fight.

No, NiL, Restricted Gear is an ugly waste of BP. You're right to correct my use of 'many', though; I was thinking R6 programs were higher. I guess I'm used to Options.

I don't know, UmaroVI, The ability to start with almost twice the passes of the Technomancer is a powerful thing.

It does sound nice, but it isn't that great. The value of 5 passes over 3 passes is tiny compared to the value of 3 over 1, doubly so in the matrix. First, of course, triple the actions versus 5/3 the actions. Second, those extra actions go last. That means there's a good chance that the important stuff has already happened. Third, on the matrix, passes are not uber-important when hacking because a lot of hacking is about not getting caught, which Technomancers are just better at.

Here's a simple image to help you out:

http://www.imgplace.com/img828/2858/75technos.png

Well, every char i play has restricted gear at least once - but usually for things like a MBW2 or a suprathyroid gland ... or both. (And my GM normally doesn't give that much money for jobs, i could not afford a mbw2 ingame)

Why?

It's not hard for a hacker to get a DP of 18 or higher and the mute option for his Exploit or Stealth program. And that means that he can usually Hack on the Fly Firewall 6 nodes on his first attempt and it doesn't really matter if he triggered an alert (with his IP he can either shut down the alarm or do whatever he came to do and leave before the alarm sounds). That means he can basically hack any pre-WAR! node at will.

I get the "super stealthy" techno concept, I just don't think it's that dominate for a few reasons.
#1. Hackers have higher Dice Pools: Yes, a techno can thread up R12+ complex forms and that's really powerful for Stealth. Outside Stealth, where programs mainly aid dicepools, an R12 Complex form is equal to an R6 program and +6 to logic linked skills. Unless I'm missing something, technos have to work very hard to match the kind of dicepools hackers casually have.
#2. Yes, Stealth is huge, but hackers have a variety of options (Mute, R10 Stealth, Trojans) which close that gap. R12 Stealth simply isn't as dominate as it was in Core, you need to go higher and that means time and karma.
#3. Stealth dependence. Yes, Stealth is awesome for cracking into nodes, beyond that it's use falls greatly. For example, if some local IC tries to scan you then that R12 Stealth becomes just another part of the DP and the hacker, ironically, probably has a higher DP for that than the Techno. Internal node defenses either weaken Stealth (aforementioned IC) or ignore it completely (databombs). In short, as node defenses get more complex, Stealth becomes less important.

#3 actually leads me to a question to the technos out there, since my techno experience is limited. As nodes get more complex I've always seen technos get weaker, since a new threat requires Threading which inflicts Fading and requires the Techno to sustain it. This has always made techos seem kinda weak compared to hackers who walk around with a +6 "bubble" of ware around them. To be fair, however, I'm not sure how high optimized technos can thread without suffering fading.

I played a TM up to prime runner status in SRM02, so maybe I can answer your TM question.

I did not feel my technomancer became weaker as nodes became more complex, however:

1) I did not see a significant number of encrypted, databombed, nodes with multiple IC. If I had, I probably would have decrypted the node prior to entry and have a sprite defuse the data bomb (rendering them moot). Once the hack has begun, I would have gone for Admin status and just removed the IC's permissions to do anything if they found me.

2) In SRM02 (on TR 6), nodes with matrix stats > 6 were quite common. Often a node would be TR + 4 or TR + 2, which meant that rating 8-10 nodes were to be expected. We also played with the SRM03 TR rules, giving +6 situational bonus to all opposing tests (except damage resistance tests).

3) My TM quickly aquired the Swap echo twice, using the interpretation that it reduced the threading penalty by 1 per thread (thus with two applications it was a -0 to sustain). We were also using the FAQ “threading is an action that takes no time” because it was prior to the SR4A Errata.

To answer the fading question, I regularly threaded to twice my resonance because I had teammates with both First Aid and Heal, so they could take care of any damage I suffered prior to intruding into a node.

One thing I notice about the way my group ran the matrix that appears different from your group, is that my group did not make you aware if you had triggered an alarm while Muted, and you could not stop alarm that was delayed due to Mute, until the alarm had sounded. You may have also been playing this way and I misinterpreted your response.

It sounds like people are still comparing the hacker and the techno 'head to head', which I consider a mistake. For example, if the hacker has 5 passes, he can do *other* things. The techno also has to (as mentioned) minmax like crazy to up those bionode stats, and enable the really impressive Threading. Etc. They just don't really compare directly, because they're very different.

Me, I *always* like to be 'hacker and'. Hacker and scout, hacker and B&E, hacker and sensor-guy, etc. It's just much more fun.

Techno AND Face works pretty well. Especially for a technoshaman.

Anyone have a link to SR4a errata? It's the first I've heard of it!

The big bonus of technomancers is, that they "have" every programm.
If you so desperatly need programm X just thread it twice and you will have a raiting of 4-6. (Which is not that bad)

The second great thing is they have a good synergy-effect with mages. Implants become useless if shapchanged... Ressonanz does not...
Than again the only way you can be identified as "the guy who is hacking our stuff" is by a mage and this mage has to be really, really good.

I'd say it takes a pretty specific build, bobbaganoosh.

But anyway. RAW or modified, Technomancers are *supposed* to be matrix gods (or at least monsters). The trick is making that fun and playable. There are a bunch of unplayable 'Resonance is Different' optional rules in Unwired, for example, and it would be interesting if they coul dbe incorporated in some non-game-destroying way. I would like it if Resonance were more different (like magic compared to guns/etc.), instead of just having matrix spirits and a headware node.

Hehe, that's a pretty obscure tactic, Irion. Luckily, emergent critters are so rare, they wouldn't just assume one of those.

I don't think you can thread the same CF twice (or more).

Secondly, they don't even come close to being that awesome. For a pittiance, a hacker has every bloody program ever made forever and ever, at rating 6, for about 25-35 BP (not including options).

A techno gets ~7-10 CFs that he can just know (each of which costs 2 BP per rating*), the rest require threading. This is fairly limited for three reasons:
1) By the book, threading now requires a non-zero-time action (free action).
2) The rating is severely limited (how many dice you have to threading there, bucko?)
3) That nasty -2 penalty to other actions while threading.

Threading stealth? -2 to exploiting!

*Hacking program (versus common use) costs just over 1 BP at rating 6 for a hacker (1.2). Common use programs are 0.12 BP each. Technos pay 2BP regardless.

This, I will agree with - if you want to be a hybrid, then yes, you want to be a hacker. I don't think there's anything wrong with preferring that, but not everybody does.

If all you want to do is kick-down-the-door hacking with Mute, you can just use Crack Sprites because win at that style of hacking forever with rating turns of Mute. The problem is that you can't turn off an alarm until it goes off, at which point it's gone off, so this isn't very subtle and people will know they've been hacked. Sometimes that isn't an issue, but sometimes it is.

2 BP? They cost 1 BP per rating.

Sorry, been too long since I looked at the rules.

Even so, it disfavors the techno, due to the hardcap of Resonance, while the hacker isn't. Sure, the hacker needs response 6, but that's WAY cheaper.

Yeah, sorry, no. 5 passes is frankly amazing when you're hacking an objective. When you have to spend complex actions on data searches to find paydata, or give up complex actions because you need to make analyze tests(simple) to find links to other nodes, being able to do all that stuff in one Combat Turn is basically amazing.

Especially if you are using the Full Unwired Experience, which has things based on combat turns. Access Log writing, which can get you instantly caught/Alerted when dealing with passkeys, Mute options which give you a full turn to mess with a system, two extra actions over an IC program to spoof a trace, having more actions lets you win a Crash War - taking people's Analyze programs offline is basically a win button, calling Alerts against users, initiating connection severance tests - the list of useful stuff you can do when you have extra actions beyond what you need for the task at hand is huge.

Frankly, going AFTER everyone else is basically awesome. Chances are you go first because you have a ridiculously initiative, and after everyone has gone, you have the choice of exactly how you are going to kick their ass more - when they can't do anything about it until next turn. Which you are probably going first on, anyway.


As for being undetectable, I am 100% confident that I can make a hacker as undetectable on the matrix as a techno. If that's your only criteria for technos being better, its a terrible one.

As for the Program Cost vs Complex Form Cost/Commlink Cost vs Bionode Cost, people should really look here. I've pretty much already done the math for you.

But basically its like this:
Rating 6 CF = 6bp PLUS sixty five MORE bp for the privilege of having a Resonance that high. Oh yeah, and 5 for the quality. That is 70 BP total, which is a MASSIVE opportunity cost when you have 400 points to work with.(19% of 400BP) In karma, its not much better: 21 for a form at 6, 100 points of Resonance, and another 10 for the quality.(17% of total 750 points)

For a hacker: a rating 6 program is 6000 nuyen, which is 1.2 BP. Under karmagen, it comes out to 2.4 karma.

For a commlink, firewall 6 and system 6 is 6000 nuyen together. A rating 6 nonstandard wireless link gives you signal 6 for 3000 nuyen, while ducking around the availability constraints of a standard Signal 6 chip(3000Y, AV 16), and being hard to detect. Response 6 costs you 8000, and an opportunity cost of 5BP for restricted gear to get it. Thats 17,000, or 8.2 BP or 16.8 karma.

Annnd a technomancer that wants a rating 5 bionode needs Willpower, Intuition, Logic of 5. That is raising 4 stats from 1 to 5, and 10 point each. Thats a 120 MORE points(30% of your total), and they can only have one of those stats at 6. Because signal is half their Resonance, they are not even going to be able to start with a good one. Under karmagen, thats 210 more points (28% of your total)

(I didn't even calculate Charisma costs into that, or the 8-11 basic programs a hacker needs to do their job)

And that is why technomancers are bad. Their cost does not justify 'Threading bullshit.' Rating 12 programs just kind of break the matrix system and I think people kind of think 'oh hey they can thread and summon sprites and take echoes! that totally justifies their insane cost!', when its really the other way around. If threading was nerfed and balanced, then I think that people would start to realize that paying 200 + BP to be a worse hacker justify access to the 'special' things they get.
There's also the fact that a lot of echoes duplicate things hackers can do out of the box(like using medic on yourself, or get extra passes), and if you need 60-100 karma to be okay at something, chances are your campaign is done by then.

I am curious how you make a hacker at chargen, who is 100% as undetectable as a technomancer. Does this involve shaky interpretations of how mute works?

And no, that's not my only criterion. I'm also not arguing technos are better, I'm arguing technos are better at the matrix, at the price of other skillsets, to be clear. The specific things are:

Better at Stealth in particular, and while stealth is not 100% of the matrix, it's a very, very important thing and not getting caught while hacking in is very valuable.
Sprites are really, really awesome in a lot of ways and make up for the apparent lack of flexibility caused by having only a few complex forms that you are good at.

1) Being way way better at Crashing analyze programs, which basically gives you a free pass on being undetectable. Remember the matrix defaulting rules: If you don't have the relevant program, you can't make the test.
2) Sprites are shite because the writers suck and never updated them. Have you ever summoned up a sprite, and realized told it to decrypt something, and realized it doesn't have the Electronic Warfare skill at all? Or had a tank sprite run in circles doing jack shite because an IC is running Stealth 1, and it can't see it because it doesn't have Analyze.(seriously its not even on its list of optionals).

3) The secret is in the Lifestyle rules. As a hacker, I have enough free points to piss away points into good contacts, negotiation, charisma, specialties, lifestyles and starting money, qualities (black market pipelines being #1) that I can basically start with enough cash and percentage discounts to be able to afford miltech programs and commlink hardware, while being able to make the availability tests.
Stealth 10, pirated? Yeah, that's 10k. Nexus systems don't care about having a high enough system to run that. Availability 40 kinda sucks. (28 for rating 7 is a bit more reasonable)
The difference in costs is so much that a hacker can just burn an edge to get that, and still have more than a techno.
It an extreme example.

If you want to have an effective technomancer, you have to min-max, especially if you want that character the have enough points to have a personality reflected in the stats(or use karmagen).
If you min-max a hacker, to the same or similiar degree as the techno, you blow everyone out of the water.

As for Sprites: A technomancer is limited to Charisma +1 total sprites(counting unregistered). To match that, all a hacker needs is 5bp for restricted gear, and 18,000Y(sorry, 1800) for a cracked rating 6 mook agent.(availability 20 exactly), and, oh, a nexus or something. The total cost for that is less than it costs a technomancer to get Compiling. Even if you throw out the stupid-ass unwired 10% piracy rules, they are STILL cheaper and just as good.

1) First, keep in mind that crashing someone's analyze program only works IF you get past the initial test to get it without being caught. Second, keep in mind it's still not super great - there's a big difference between "nobody knows I'm here" and "they know someone is hacking them because their program just crashed, they just can't actually find me in particular."

2) The idea is that you pick sprites that don't suck, so you don't have Tank sprites at all. Yeah, some sprites can't Decrypt. Several, including Machine - one of the strongest anyways - can. You don't need 5 types that can decrypt, you need 1 type.

Yeah, it's funny (=sad) how uneven the sprites are.

Anyway, it seems like the operative point is whether technomancers are 'better than a hacker could ever hope' at chargen. Surely that's not an important point to hold on to?

Don't forget Edge, good for both hackers and technos! Could be worth going human with Edge soft-capped at 6 for those times you need to get into the high security node in one pass, although orks are also good if you want to skimp BP on the P characteristics and still be pretty tough.

Technos are already practically overspent on stats and skills and other abilities. They don't have the BP to spare.

And certainly not on a race with 2 mental caps, either.

This is pretty much 4A's fault, and something that is pretty easy to work around once you're aware of it.

But at the same time its part of the core book and that shit should be straight by now, and basically not something that should have to be houseruled.


I can speak for the effectiveness of a high edge on a hacker/rigger. Its basically amazing. In my long-running game, edge is basically the reason we were able to take a great dragon down. I got surprise (with edge on the initiative test) so no twist fate, edged the gauss rifle shot, and landed 15 damage after the soak. That -5 to everything it did basically tipped the scales into winnable.

I think the big point where me and Udoshi disagree is how good I think sprites are.

Now, I know that some sprite types are worthless crap - those being Data, Courier, and Tank. No argument there, all three of those are about as useful as Clippy. The others are all good to great.

First, note that registering sprites is free. There's no reason you shouldn't have all the services you need fairly quickly, so that shouldn't really be an issue. Why sprites are good:

1) Sprites allow you to "outsource" some skills, by which I mean that you just accept that you blow chunks at something, don't even try, and rely on sprites. A good example is Browse. This compensates for the lack of breadth technomancers have.

2) Sprites come with quite a few abilities that are very useful, widely helpful, and not duplicatable by hackers. A good example is the Traceroute power of Sleuth sprites (which is so much better than Trace it isn't even funny, since you can defend against Trace).

3) Assist Operation from high-rating sprites does a lot to compensate for not having a huge pile of programs. AO is enormously powerful and lets you go from 0 to a high-rated complex form quickly.

I haven't really elaborated on my opinion of sprites. I think that in general they are incredibly useful - they offer capabilities and useful powers that a techno can't normally have, and some of them are incredibly useful.

No, what i hate about them is that the ones in the core book are just kind of shitty, and they aren't elaborated on enough - the classic 'machine sprite as a pilot' debate. They are incredibly useful, but at the same time, not as useful as spirits for the same bp cost and time investment. Another pet peeve is the 'standardized skills thing' - all spirits come with a certain list of skills to look around, interact, dodge and fight within their native environment. Sprites, on the other hand, have no such considerations - they exist on the matrix, but none of them have all the skills/programs they need to LIVE on the matrix. Its yet another case of Catalyst not reading their own rules, forgetting that if you don't have a program, you can't do it on the matrix, and letting the customer pick up the broken pieces.

Sprites are good. They are hella good. I've basically broken tutor sprites before. But that doesn't mean they don't have shitty rules and/or could be better.

You will get no argument from me that the rules are shitty and poorly written, and that sprites often make little or no sense.




This I actually do disagree with, because of the fundamental difference between Registering and Binding. Binding costs money (binding materials) and you lose the money if you lose the test. Registering costs only time. A mage who uses a bunch of bound spirit services goes through huge amounts of cash - a technomancer doesn't. This means that Technos can afford to, for example, Assist Operation much more freely than mages can use the equivalent Aid Sorcery.

Sez who?