Where does it say you can?

If there is an alarm system then it can be turned off, that is somewhat axiomatic...

That doesn't look much like a page number to me.

It's true you can't turn off something that isn't on, but you can remove the triggering conditions. Whatever you did is in the access log and can be removed (UW p.65). If it's not there when the mute runs out then there's nothing to alert people about. Simples.

That does have a page number, however, there's a problem with that line of reasoning.

"A hacker’s actions will not evident in the access
log of a node for at least a number of Combat Turns equal to the
System of the node"

So, first, alerts can't be dependent on the Access Log, because alerts normally go off before the access log even records the action that set the alert off. Second, even if it were dependant, Muted alerts trigger before the information in the access log shows up to be edited (one combat turn vs. System combat turns).

Wait.

So a better node (i.e. System 6) won't see the hacker's actions for six whole turns while a shitty node (System 1) will see it almost immediately?

Does that sound backwards to anyone?

Maybe better nodes are more complex. Besides, they should also have other defenses, heh.

In unrelated news, the matrix rules were cobbled together by monkeys who were busy huffing glue at the time.

Harsh. *goes, looks at rules for sprites that cannot perceive their environment or defend themselves* ...but possibly accurate.

Your characters must be suffering from sleep deprivation quite often. Or do you have a page reference where it says lights can be switched off?

I still believe that a hacker can be just as efficient than a technomancer at chargen, even if we're looking at a level of system mastery more in line with your sample characters than with the SR4A sample characters.

I'll cede that technomancers have more room to grow than hackers after chargen for the same reason that mages have more room to grow than Samurai; Resonance like Magic is ultimately uncapped.

The point he is making is that is is extremely difficult (Read impossible) to turn off a light that is already off. Maybe you know a way that us mere mortals have missed?

Thanks for the responses everyone.

5 IP for Hackers in the Matrix? O_O. How is that possible mechanically? (Only have SR4A and have not read through Unwired yet). And are custom commlinks explored more in depth in Unwired?

PoliteMan explained the necessary equipment for 5 IP; and yes.

I'm AFB so can't quote, but you've missed out a key line. The data is in the access log immediately but takes System turns to become readable. I take this to mean that the node is aware from when it happens since the alternative, as you pointed out, does not make sense.

Why couldn't you just Issue Command (p229) the node to "not activate any alerts for five minutes" or "cancel all delayed alerts"? That's always seemed the simplest way to me.

Backing up though, I've been thinking about Y's suggestion of looking at the different abilities of hackers and technos and here's what I think make hackers unique:

#1 High Dicepools in everything. Even a hacker with basic ware should be running a +4 to every roll without drugs and as the campaign goes on that will get higher. A hacker can confidently make any roll on the Matrix with enough ware, even if he only has an R3 program. Even at high karma levels I can't see technos catching up to the raw DPs of hackers, since hackers at that level can usually afford high levels of Edge that technos can't spare the karma for.

#2 Actions. Whether it's running around with 5 IPs or running a horde of replicating worms with hundreds of actions a turn, hackers simply do more on the matrix.

#3 Customization. Hackers and their programs allow for a lot more tinkering than technos. Program options, agent autosofts, and malware allow a ton of customization and lets you make some truly unique creations. This isn't just for optimization, it can be a lot of fun. A Blackhammer program with the Area option feels very different from one with the Psychotropic option and an agent with the replicate autosoft and a bunch of viruses feels very different from one with stealth and trojans. There's also a ton of hardware customization you can do, especially since basically every object is connected to the matrix.

Finally, although this one is a bit iffy because there might be a techno that's gotten around this,
4. Compatibility. Techno abilities are unique and generally only usable by that techno. Hacker programs and creations are easy to share with anyone with any Matrix capability. If you've got a Commlink, you hacker probably has a rating 6 Firewall he can copy for you. If you're running a drone network, your hacker can turn that network into a fortress. Hacker software isn't special but that means they've got a lot more synergy with their team members.

One quibble: technos can have the same agents and botnets if they want (plus, they might have more free cash?), so can't really mention that.

Yes but... it just doesn't feel very "techno-y" and I can't see it as a reason to play technos. That just feels more like a techno/hacker hybrid. And I though technos usually spent their money on gear to make them less useless outside the Matrix.

It's not a reason to play technos. It's just not a reason to play a hacker (except if you're coding them yourself, of course).

Technos are quite good, untill the point the hacker finds the rules to code his own programms, which are (due to handwavium) not degrading...
Now your Techno is sitting there with his raiting 6 (or only 5) komplex forms and the hacker is throwing raiting 8 programms at you.
You can't (due to the rule changes) not thread every programm for the throw you need it from 0 to 6 now.

So I honestly do not see, how you could stand a chance anymore... Sprites could be a solution...

The rules for coding your own programs in Unwired work well, except for one thing. The rules in WAR! that introduce Military grade programs (rating 6-10) states that they degrade no matter what, even if you code them yourself, due to the bleeding-edge of technology technobabble stuff. Hmm, now that I look up a page reference to quote, I can't seem to find the passage that I was thinking of. So military grade programs are just that easy to keep, huh? That's powerful.

Well, for starters you have obviously missed the context: The question was whether a hacker can shut down an alert before it goes off.
So the more fitting comparison would be whether a light switch can be rendered unusable when the light is off, or whether the light needs to be on for that. And the hypothetical worker would be able to see perfectly well in the dak.

A hacker can generally keep up about 1 R10 hacking program, higher level hackers can add in 1 R10 Common Use program.

Let me see if I can remember this...

You'll generally need a nexus and around 20-30 dice for coding rolls. Assuming a fairly average mil grade hacker, we're looking at a dicepool of Logic 7+skill 5+software 5+ logic boosters 4 for a DP of 21. We need to hit a threshold of 20 to code an R10 Stealth (2 week increments coding in nexus) then patch in an Optimization program option (so we can actually use it). The theory here is that you can't simply buy and swap program options in and out, especially not for mil-grade stuff, so we have to code it ourselves. The big problem is we can't patch it, so we consistently have to code the whole thing from scratch. Degradation rules come from p144 of War!, or -1 every two months.

So we start coding, assuming average luck on rolls, though you probably want a slightly higher DP.

1st month: We start coding a new R10 Stealth program, lets call it Stealth A, rolling twice and get seven hits and seven hits on StealthA.
2nd month: We roll six hits to code StealthA, finish it, then spend another 2 weeks coding in Optimization R4, which we easily make. We now have a usable Stealth program.
3rd month: Right now we're running with StealthA but start coding a new R10 Stealth program, StealthB, we roll seven hits and seven hits.
4th month: We're running with StealthA at R10, later this month it degrades to R9, but we finish coding StealthB and and our R4 optimization. At the end of this month StealthA is at R9 and StealthB is at R10.
5th month: Now we delete StealthA, use StealthB, and start coding StealthC. Continue ad infinitum.

Quick edit: So yeah, milgrade software is very doable but it is very time intensive, time a hacker might want to spend building a botnet or spoofing lifetyle or building hardware. For somebody who want to do it, you probably want to wait a few sessions and put together anything you might need long-term before consigning the rest of your free time to coding this stuff.

One more note, there's a strong temptation to sell those R9 optimized Stealth programs instead of just deleting them, especially since your customers will keep coming back every few months. The general assumption here is that bad things happen to people who traffic in mil-grade hacking programs; they're either killed by GOD or "aggressively recruited" by one of the megas.

Bullshit. If you're going to quote that, quote the full section.

I'm fairly sure its possible to intercept the memory log storage before its actually written to the access log.

I just searched Unwired for "Access Log" and found nothing about intercepting the memory log storage or any indication that you can edit the access log of things that have not yet been written to it, or any indication that for ordinary nodes (as compared to ones with passkeys that work differently), Alerts and Access Log are connected.

When the book says "evident" in the access log, does that mean that it's there, and can't be seen, or that is isn't actually there? In the former case, the hacker should be able to edit the information out of the access log, and then there isn't anything to worry about. In the latter, the hacker's just going to have to wait for the alert to sound, and then shut it off.

I do not understand what you want to say?
You think it should be possible to have your own military grade programm for "NOTHING". Just in 4 month of downtime the others need to learn one or two skills?

I think those programms should degrade, because first off all it is logical to assume so. Nobody is updating them, so they degrade.
Second off all military stuff would be too easy to get.

I mean having logic 9 for a month of downtime is not much of a big deal if you have some mage in the group.

@PoliteMan
The question here is: Should you have access to "higher than top of the art programms" at a fingertip?

The next thing would be you force your programm to stay at a the starting level.
Make it one level higher R11 or even 2, it will take 2 weeks longer.
Now you just let it degrade from 11 or 12 down to 8. Still top of the Art, but you have 3 or 4 month for the next program.

As the section states, "the information is there, but it is in the form of raw data and has not yet been processed into a readable format". The question is what is meant by the "breathing room" this allows for hackers. A spider won't see it during this period, but if the hacker is able to remove it before it becomes 'readable' (Data Search and Edit) then a spider should equally be able to find it. I guess the reason they don't is that they don't know what they're looking for and continually searching a log they can just read with a little lag is not the best use of their time. So I think it works to allow a Browse program to find the raw data so that it can be erased if you read 'readable' as '...to users'.

Except that patching, once you have that Rating 10 Program is a very simple thing to do, as it only takes 1-4 Hits (Usually 1-3, unless you are playing with Viruses and other Malware) to do so (The Difference between the rating you had, and the rating point you lost, which is only 1, Multiplied by your threshold, which will be 1-4, dependant upon program type), and One Base Week. Using all you have, that divides into a 5-10 hour patch job. Easy Peasy. If you have a Sleep regulator, it makes it even easier.

You are correct, though, in the assumption that once the Powers that Be know you are that skilled as a programmer, they will likely pull out all of the stops to "Recruit" you.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Well, not to mention, that the powers to be would have no problem making such a skilled programmer out of nearly everybody...

Depends upon what optional rules you are using, but yes, it is possible.
But why would they spend the time and Money MAKING someone that good (High Skills are not something you can just program. After all. Skillsofts only go to Skill Rating of 4) when all they have to do is kidnap someone? *Shrug*

It is Shadowrun, after all, and that is a common theme in Shadowrun

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
And a skillsoft raiting 4 would not be enough, why?

The point is, as soon as you start using the rules given as simulation, SR starts to break.

The Whizkid with skill 6 instead of 4 or 5 would be in the real world someboday you want to have in your line of work. After the rules, it really is not that much. Same with logic.
As soon as you start using ware or even magic, they will both end up at the high cap..
The smarter guy is actually more expensive...

What I wanted to say is: As soon as you let the NPC-World work after the same rules. There wouldn't be any firewall below 8.

R10 is the max you can buy, so I assume it's the max you can code.

Quick edit on getting R10 programs for "free": Also, that's always been a strength of the INT/LOG crowd, they can improve using time to construct things, instead of just using karma and nuyen. You pay the points up front for the skills to build, you get the pay off down the line. SR4 has actually really wrecked them because coding is (I think) the only area where clear build times are established.


Can't patch mil-grade stuff (p 144, WAR!), which is why you have to keep coding from scratch.
Arguably Firewalls don't degrade (Firewalls appear to be matrix programs but not Matrix Programs, so eh.) which makes them doable with edge or rushed jobs. Other than that, everything degrades, which means everything requires being programmed from scratch.


Depends on your campaign. I can't see many situations where rushing an R10 program a few sessions after chargen is necessary but as campaigns go longer and power levels build (especially among the awakened) it may become more appropriate.

Except that military grade programs can't be patched, according to page 144 or WAR!
So either just stick to rating 6 programs, or constantly code rating 10 programs.

Ahhh... Gotcha. That does make sense.

If you are using the Optional Rules (which we do) Progream rating only caps hits, and does not add to dice pools, so It is never that big of a deal. But yes, I see your point. Of course, Using Program Caps, you generally do not need anything above a 6-7, so *Shrug*

If you use any of those optional rules, it so dramatically alters the entire hacker/techno discussion that we're not even talking about the same thing, though.

It might be the a more interesting discussion, since I think almost everyone agrees that under the standard rules techno's are screwed.

Maybe, but it's one we've had a few times before, and it alters hackers at least as much as technos.

And I don't see people agreeing that, I see people saying technos are wonderful. They are, in some ways. Like I said, I know Udoshi was talking about some techno-revamp rules to make them 'better' (!=stronger) in the game, so there's always that.