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> Inhabitation for PCs, Rules for inanimate vessels
The Jake
post Feb 4 2012, 05:08 AM
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Hi there

Under the rules for Inhabitation it says they use the standard rules for prepared vessels. Now prepared vessels can be Inanimate or Living. Inhabitation rules read as though they presume that a living host is used but doesn't state it explicitly. To add to the confusion, the prepared vessels rule read quite clearly that they apply for both Possession and Inhabitation. AFAIK, the only rules that specifically state living vessels MUST be used for Inhabitation is for Insect Shamans. But no such prohibition exits elsewhere.

So for example, if I decide to create an ally spirit that uses Inhabitation, there's nothing to stop me from using an inanimate vessel, have the spirit possess it and add my dice to the roll to make the spirit become a True Form merge? I've read and re-read the rules here and I'm pretty sure there is nothing illegal by RAW about that.

- J.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 4 2012, 05:27 AM
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Yeah, it's almost like PCs aren't supposed to get access to that power, and they didn't bother making sure the rules worked. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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The Jake
post Feb 4 2012, 05:43 AM
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Look, my GM will probably deny me this one. But I'm definitely going to try it on....

This is for my Pueblo shaman. I want to create a kachina doll and get the ally to inhabit that, stack the dice so that it becomes a True Form. Boom. Job done. I just see it as an Object Resistance test instead of Willpower.

Also, there's no requirement that I can see for the minimum amount of resources per point of Force, unless I'm using a Homunculus vessel (which I'm not, it would be an Object Vessel). So principally, I can have a teeny, tiny wooden doll (the kachina doll) and get the ally to inhabit the thing and convert it to a True Form like its nothing, effectively making it no different to a materialised spirit at that point.

- J.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 4 2012, 05:47 AM
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Makes sense, as long as that 'I see it as OR' bit isn't just a house rule. The True Form result is random, right? Otherwise, you're stuck with a crappy doll, hehe. Hope those dice are well stacked.
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The Jake
post Feb 4 2012, 05:52 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 4 2012, 05:47 AM) *
Makes sense, as long as that 'I see it as OR' bit isn't just a house rule. The True Form result is random, right? Otherwise, you're stuck with a crappy doll, hehe. Hope those dice are well stacked.


It's an opposed test. The vessel vs the spirit. I'm aiming for a Force 8 spirit, so the spirit gets 16 dice against whatever the vessel is (Inhabitation rules state Willpower + Intuition assuming a living vessel). Caster can then add Binding dice to either the host's roll or the spirit's rolls to skew the probability of getting the merge that you're after.

WORST case, even if I'm unable to use an unliving vessel like I assume, I can still capture a small animal and have the spirit Inhabit the bird and given the Willpower + Intuition of the animal, the net effect will still be the same.

- J.
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pbangarth
post Feb 4 2012, 08:47 AM
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QUOTE (The Jake @ Feb 4 2012, 12:52 AM) *
It's an opposed test. The vessel vs the spirit. I'm aiming for a Force 8 spirit, so the spirit gets 16 dice against whatever the vessel is (Inhabitation rules state Willpower + Intuition assuming a living vessel). Caster can then add Binding dice to either the host's roll or the spirit's rolls to skew the probability of getting the merge that you're after.

WORST case, even if I'm unable to use an unliving vessel like I assume, I can still capture a small animal and have the spirit Inhabit the bird and given the Willpower + Intuition of the animal, the net effect will still be the same.

- J.

Well, you could capture a pixie, surgically remove the wings, Inhabit it with your ally spirit, and then dress/paint it up as a Kachina doll. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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The Jake
post Feb 4 2012, 09:11 AM
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QUOTE (pbangarth @ Feb 4 2012, 08:47 AM) *
Well, you could capture a pixie, surgically remove the wings, Inhabit it with your ally spirit, and then dress/paint it up as a Kachina doll. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


LOLLLLL.... that's just awesome.

- J.
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The Jake
post Feb 4 2012, 09:26 AM
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Also, is there any way to guarantee a Hybrid Form merge? The only way I can see is if you split the dice pools as evenly as possible between Vessel and spirit (assuming you know what the Vessel is rolling) and autobuy successes - assuming your GM allows that to occur.

- J.
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Udoshi
post Feb 4 2012, 11:01 AM
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QUOTE (The Jake @ Feb 4 2012, 02:26 AM) *
Also, is there any way to guarantee a Hybrid Form merge? The only way I can see is if you split the dice pools as evenly as possible between Vessel and spirit (assuming you know what the Vessel is rolling) and autobuy successes - assuming your GM allows that to occur.

- J.


Give a spirit a spell that can be sustained.

You can manipulate dice pool penalties as you need to, to get what you want.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 4 2012, 03:58 PM
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That'd be a very inappropriate place to use autobuy (I'd go so far as 'wrong', but people get so sensitive). It *is* funny that the mage can give dice to either side, what real reason could there possibly be for that rule? (I'm assuming that manipulating the Inhabitation merge isn't a real reason, hehe.)
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Neraph
post Feb 6 2012, 05:04 PM
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QUOTE (The Jake @ Feb 4 2012, 03:26 AM) *
Also, is there any way to guarantee a Hybrid Form merge? The only way I can see is if you split the dice pools as evenly as possible between Vessel and spirit (assuming you know what the Vessel is rolling) and autobuy successes - assuming your GM allows that to occur.

- J.

Mind Control.

Control Thoughts the spirit to buy successes and make sure your dicepool is similar in size. That removes the ability of the GM to "thwart" your Hybrid form.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 6 2012, 05:07 PM
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You can't mind control someone to 'buy successes'. It's not an in-game choice.
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Neraph
post Feb 6 2012, 05:07 PM
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"Do this as routinely as you can."
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 6 2012, 05:22 PM
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They still have to roll the dice. Nothing in-game gets to decide what their dice do, aside from using Edge. I mentioned above why the *GM* would be wrong to use hit-buying in this circumstance, but characters (or players, for that matter) have no say once the GM decides.
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The Jake
post Feb 6 2012, 11:19 PM
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IIRC, it is an optional rule but most GMs allow it. At least those I've played with. Given you control the spirit, you should be rolling, not the GM. He can roll for the host (therein lies the rub) but that's about it.

It'd be a kick in the balls from the GM to suddenly deny you a rule he's allowed you to use since day 1, all because he doesn't like how you're going to use it.

- J.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 6 2012, 11:26 PM
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You're not supposed to do hit-buying for things that really matter, is the point. In normal play, you can't just choose to use hit-buying any old time.
QUOTE
Gamemasters should only allow this when the character has an exceptionally large dice pool (and is unlikely to fail) or when the situation is non-threatening and non-stressful. If the character might suffer bad consequences from failing the test, then the gamemaster should require her to roll the test rather than buying hits.

And, more importantly, you can't mind control anyone to do things *they* can't do (like make out-of-character decisions). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If the GM has already set up the rules differently, then… yup, the rules are different. In that case, though, you wouldn't need Control Thoughts in the first place.
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Udoshi
post Feb 7 2012, 04:11 AM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Feb 6 2012, 10:04 AM) *
Mind Control.

Control Thoughts the spirit to buy successes and make sure your dicepool is similar in size. That removes the ability of the GM to "thwart" your Hybrid form.


I don't think control thoughts could do this. Theoretically ending up with a specific merge is in your spirits best interests, and you could probably convince it to spend some of its edge.

A speaker's way adept, though, ought to be able to allow buying hits.
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The Jake
post Feb 7 2012, 04:23 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 6 2012, 11:26 PM) *
You're not supposed to do hit-buying for things that really matter, is the point. In normal play, you can't just choose to use hit-buying any old time.
And, more importantly, you can't mind control anyone to do things *they* can't do (like make out-of-character decisions). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If the GM has already set up the rules differently, then… yup, the rules are different. In that case, though, you wouldn't need Control Thoughts in the first place.


Well you're doing it for the spirit. It's not harmful to the spirit -- either way, it's gonna win. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

- J.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 7 2012, 01:13 PM
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Hehe. That's not really the point: it's a critical moment, and the player (clearly!) has a preferred outcome. That mean no hit-buying. Control Thoughts was my real issue, though.
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The Jopp
post Feb 7 2012, 02:06 PM
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Hmm...Is it possible to inhabit a true-form flesh form insect spirit with your own spirit? After all,it is a LIVING creature (albeit spirit at the same time).
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Neraph
post Feb 7 2012, 04:51 PM
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No, spirits cannot be possessed or inhabited. AFB, but it's in there.
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The Jake
post Feb 8 2012, 01:50 AM
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No but you can use Vessel Trading on a hybrid or flesh form though. That's come up in our campaign just recently.

- J.
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Udoshi
post Feb 8 2012, 03:28 AM
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That is an incredibly scary combination.
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The Jake
post Feb 8 2012, 04:05 AM
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QUOTE (Udoshi @ Feb 8 2012, 04:28 AM) *
That is an incredibly scary combination.


It was funny, a Force 10 free spirit in our campaigned has that as one of her/its' free spirit powers. Used it to eject the shell of a Nymph spirit from a successful Flesh Form merge. Effectively insect spirit died, free spirit inhabits vessel.

Not sure what happens to the memories of both original host and spirit (given the two 'merged') but this free spirit is already incredibly bad arse. I assume it uses the F10 rating as standard posession. It already has Aura Masking so as far as anyone else knows (apart from us) it is the same walking, talking entity it was before. I'm just grateful she *seems* to be on our side...

- J.
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Yerameyahu
post Feb 8 2012, 04:18 AM
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Why would the vessel keep all the buffs, sans spirit? That's just begging for abuse. Don't the rules specifically say, 'this is identical to Possession', anyway?
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