Quick Draw and Iaijutsu, a rant Options

[mmmkay]

Both of these skills do as advertised for SMGs, swords, arrows, etc. To my disappointment after carefully reading both the power and the maneuver do not grant ready weapon and throw weapon in a single simple action. You literally can only pick up only one throwing weapon and throw it in a simple action. In my mind, I thought you could ready a few throwing knives and then toss one in a simple action. You'd have to have a pretty high reaction + weapons skill to never fail the quick draw test, I was working out some numbers for it and especially iaijutsu makes the error rate pretty high. My original thoughts on quick drawing was that it'd be good because you could basically do it on the first IP of combat and repeat it every 3 IPs or so, but having to do it every simple action is asking for failure.

Random Aside: Does a specialization factor into weapon skill? For the example specializations I'd imagine shuriken when you're quick drawing shurikens and throwing knife when you're quick drawing throwing knives would be the only specializations that factor in, if they did. The other specializations under handed and over handed don't have anything to do with quick drawing, so they wouldn't apply, but it's never been crystal clear to me if you couldn't make up your own specializations. I suppose in Missions they don't allow creating your own and at other games the default answer is ask your GM...

So basically after realizing this, the krav maga specialty where you can ready weapons as a free action seems ideal, because you can arm yourself with agi/2 weapons and then each simple action until you run out of goodies you just throw. This does have a downside of not being able to use some of the more unique thrown weapons twice a turn, but it is reliable. I suppose if your reaction + weapon skill is high enough, then you can reliably attempt to quick-draw your way to victory and it does save you a free action every pass. On the other hand if you are an adept that is a specialist in thrown weapons then presumably you are counted on to to be a reliable source of damage and maybe I'm risk averse, but I can imagine choking too easily on a quick draw attempt.

Forgive me if this out of place, but I kind of wanted to rant on this because one of my pet projects was working on different forms of a throwing adept and massaging the build until it wasn't just junk at everything but throwing stuff and then I run into this mess. A discussion or new thoughts on throwing adepts would be appreciated. Also note that my realization applies to bow adepts, but those have fallen out of style.

[Medicineman]

Does a specialization factor into weapon skill?

I doubt it because the spec. does NOT raise the Skill.Its just a modifier !
thats a big difference to SR2 & 3 where a spec. was just another Skill/part of the Skill that could even be raised seperately.
Lots of People still think of the spec. as a Kind of Skill which it ain't (anymore)!

So basically after realizing this, the krav maga specialty where you can ready weapons as a free action seems ideal,

There are some that want to use Krav Maga to fast Draw Bows& Arrows (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) So You should be careful with that

HougH!
Medicineman

[mmmkay]

I doubt it because the spec. does NOT raise the Skill.Its just a modifier !
thats a big difference to SR2 & 3 where a spec. was just another Skill/part of the Skill that could even be raised seperately.
Lots of People still think of the spec. as a Kind of Skill which it ain't (anymore)!

Thank you, I need to be whacked over the head a few times to be reminded.

There are some that want to use Krav Maga to fast Draw Bows& Arrows (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) So You should be careful with that

HougH!
Medicineman

Well, I'm not sure I understand this, but I was thinking in the context of readying throwing weapons like shuriken and throwing knives. I assume the point you are making is that ready weapon can either be used to ready the bow or nock an arrow, but not both? Is that what I'm supposedly being careful with? I guess I did off-handedly mention bow adepts, but they are a bit weirder than throwing adepts I suppose.

Also why'd you capitalize the last H in HougH!? I would like to trade my guttural nonsense for a dance please. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Medicineman]

Well, the point is that there is no Regiment of Longbow Archers in the Israeli Defense Force
So they don't teach to fast draw an Arrow with Krav Maga
It simply "clashes " with may sense of reality/ of Martial Arts.
I wouldn't mind a separate Martial Arts with Bows (You might call it Dai-Kyutsu or whatever) that teaches You to fast draw with Arrows .I'd even like it ,but Not Krav Maga....
Its like getting the Kick Maneuver and tying a monowhip to Your Legs to get a Reach of 3 with Whips..... Gnarghh (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

And the H....sometimes its because my Fingers are to fast and it happens by accident when I "capitalize " the !

Hough
Medicineman

[The Jake]

You know, after playing this game for over 20 years (WTF, that long???) a complaint about thrown weapons has never come up. Probably because HMGs, explosives, rockets, spells and spirits just own face. So I can't really relate to this one.

If it bothers you, just house rule it and call it a day?

- J.

[mmmkay]

I don't disagree. It is also like using the full offense maneuver with guns. Or Focus Will to summon spirits.

@J - I suppose it boils down to a love of complaining and a joy of trying new ideas.

[Medicineman]

Or Focus Will to summon spirits.
Wait a Sec ! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/upsidedown.gif)
Focus Will to resist Drain (from Summoning) Is perfectly OK ImO
I use it with my Astral Adept ("Mo Ri" surged Orkish buddhist Monk with Martial Arts)

with a Shaolin Dance
Medicineman

[Grinder]

Ok, you using it at your table totally justifies it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[mmmkay]

Focus Will to improve drain resistance is about as seemingly out-of-place as it gets. I mean I suppose RAW it's fine.

[UmaroVI]

Uh, that's pretty much what focus will is for. It's really hard to do anything else with it, and there's at least one martial art that specifically mentions that Awakened people find it useful (Kiai). I see no problem here.

[Dakka Dakka]

I doubt it because the spec. does NOT raise the Skill.Its just a modifier !
thats a big difference to SR2 & 3 where a spec. was just another Skill/part of the Skill that could even be raised seperately.
Lots of People still think of the spec. as a Kind of Skill which it ain't (anymore)!

I disagree. It is a conditional modifier. If you quickdraw shuriken and have the shuriken specialization, you use the thrown weapon skill with shurikens so the condition is met and it should apply.

[UmaroVI]

I just ran the numbers, and actually, I think Quickdraw is fine for this. An adept who wants to focus on throwing weapons (see for example the Former Neoprimitive archetype in my sig) can quite reasonably get the odds of failing quickdraw down under 2%.

[Yerameyahu]

Spec should not count. Or, rather, it *should*, because it *shouldn't* be a DP modifier. But it is. That's why people are always abusing spec for multi-actions; you can't have your cake and eat it too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dakka Dakka]

Spec should not count. Or, rather, it *should*, because it *shouldn't* be a DP modifier. But it is. That's why people are always abusing spec for multi-actions; you can't have your cake and eat it too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It isn't abuse, if you make something even remotely viable. If you have your adept with two force +x weapon foci and specialization hacking at the opposition in broad daylight (i.e. no negative modifiers), the opposition is doing something wrong. Even then, the adept probably has a smaller dice pool than he would if he attacked only once. Two-weapon style is much more overpowered in melee.

If you consider specialization an augmentation to the skill, how would you handle the use of a specialized weapon and an unspecialized one? Are those two different skills i.e. the smaller one is used and the specialization is wasted? Or can the player "abuse" the system in giving the unspecialized weapon a larger dice pool?

[Paul]

Maybe I'm just being too reasonable but in real life the pucker factor means you often, even after relentless practice in dynamic training scenario's, don't do it right. The game isn't a perfect emulation, and I'm good with that.

[Neraph]

Well, the point is that there is no Regiment of Longbow Archers in the Israeli Defense Force
So they don't teach to fast draw an Arrow with Krav Maga

It should be noted that you only have 1 Free Action per Initiative Pass... otherwise, using quick movements intended for daggers and assault rifles is little different than moving around bows and arrows - you just need to move them quickly into different positions.

[Yerameyahu]

Dakka Dakka, I was talking about abusing DP-mods for multi-actions in general. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But the point is that you have to pick one: either Spec is skill, or it's DP-mod.

[UmaroVI]

Yerameyahu, I'm not following why you think Specialization being a dice pool modifier (which, I agree, it is) would mean it doesn't apply on Quickdraw? Quickdrawing is a test using Reaction+Skill. The rule says that "Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill". You are making a test for that skill. So you add +2 dice.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not talking about that. Someone said that Spec counts as skill; it doesn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

On the other hand if you are an adept that is a specialist in thrown weapons then presumably you are counted on to to be a reliable source of damage and maybe I'm risk averse, but I can imagine choking too easily on a quick draw attempt.

I dont really see a combat adept specialising on the weapon type he's trying to quick draw failing often.
After all a skill of 6 alone will succeed on that test every time on avarage, a reaction of 6(that you should easily have) means you on avarage get twice the amount of successes you need.

I'm not talking about that. Someone said that Spec counts as skill; it doesn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Actually some one said that it doesn't count as a skill and based on that said it's not added to the quick draw test, witch ofcource make no sense as you add modifiers to that test just like you do for all other tests.

[Medicineman]

and someone (me) said/wrote that a Spec is not a skill but a Modifier
and that this is a big difference to SR2 & 3
....maybe my Post started this Avalanche of Misunderstandings ....?
We'd better "reboot "

JahtaHey
Medicineman

[Trigger]

We'd better "reboot "

I thought you were talking about skills and modifiers, not awesome TV shows about the matrix (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Medicineman]

sometimes I'm talking about 2 or 3 Things/Items/Topics at the same time
and my Dance is about a fourth one



with 4 different Dances and none goes back to Topic
Medicineman

[UmaroVI]

So how 'bout them Barghests?

[mmmkay]

I just ran the numbers, and actually, I think Quickdraw is fine for this. An adept who wants to focus on throwing weapons (see for example the Former Neoprimitive archetype in my sig) can quite reasonably get the odds of failing quickdraw down under 2%.

I checked your signature. Neat character. I'm pretty sure obtaining 9 in throwing weapons and 7 in reaction is not the norm for a throwing adept, but I suppose I can still work out my point. Yes the odds of failing on a single quick draw test is low in this case. Partially because your character has a high throwing weapons + reaction, but also because you're using the adept power quick draw. The odds of failure are closer to 6% if you were using Iaijutsu. I suppose my complaint was that you have to quick draw every simple action, because you're not readying more than one item per simple action. Although this is a moot point with your character because you toss around crazy sauce like combat axes and nets, which cannot be readied in multiples. So for instance your chance of imperfection in quick drawing in a single IP is 2.7% and your chance of imperfection over all 3 IPs is 7.9%, which is still low. Your character is reliable. The equivalent failure chances for a 6 reaction, 6 throwing weapons, and using the quick draw adept power is nearly 10% and nearly 26%, respectively. Those are not reliable odds.

Note your damage codes were incorrect: You should be doing 9 P with throwing knives and 11 P with combat axes. Also where did you get -4 for the concealability for throwing knives?

At any rate, the better the build then the better the quick draw reliability and the worse the build then krav magaing throwing knives is better. Since "A character can ready a number of small throwing weapons, such as throwing knives or shuriken, equal to one-half his Agility (round down) per Ready Weapon action." - SR4a p. 147, does that mean if you had the Missile Mastery adept power you could pull one-half agility pencils or coins from your pocket in a ready weapon action? How small is small? Throwing knives and shuriken are small throwing weapons and throwing knives have concealability -4... so ask your GM...

So how 'bout them Barghests?

lol, btw I refer to your archetypes all the time, especially your transhuman mystic... so good, but so ugly