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mmmkay
Both of these skills do as advertised for SMGs, swords, arrows, etc. To my disappointment after carefully reading both the power and the maneuver do not grant ready weapon and throw weapon in a single simple action. You literally can only pick up only one throwing weapon and throw it in a simple action. In my mind, I thought you could ready a few throwing knives and then toss one in a simple action. You'd have to have a pretty high reaction + weapons skill to never fail the quick draw test, I was working out some numbers for it and especially iaijutsu makes the error rate pretty high. My original thoughts on quick drawing was that it'd be good because you could basically do it on the first IP of combat and repeat it every 3 IPs or so, but having to do it every simple action is asking for failure.

Random Aside: Does a specialization factor into weapon skill? For the example specializations I'd imagine shuriken when you're quick drawing shurikens and throwing knife when you're quick drawing throwing knives would be the only specializations that factor in, if they did. The other specializations under handed and over handed don't have anything to do with quick drawing, so they wouldn't apply, but it's never been crystal clear to me if you couldn't make up your own specializations. I suppose in Missions they don't allow creating your own and at other games the default answer is ask your GM...

So basically after realizing this, the krav maga specialty where you can ready weapons as a free action seems ideal, because you can arm yourself with agi/2 weapons and then each simple action until you run out of goodies you just throw. This does have a downside of not being able to use some of the more unique thrown weapons twice a turn, but it is reliable. I suppose if your reaction + weapon skill is high enough, then you can reliably attempt to quick-draw your way to victory and it does save you a free action every pass. On the other hand if you are an adept that is a specialist in thrown weapons then presumably you are counted on to to be a reliable source of damage and maybe I'm risk averse, but I can imagine choking too easily on a quick draw attempt.

Forgive me if this out of place, but I kind of wanted to rant on this because one of my pet projects was working on different forms of a throwing adept and massaging the build until it wasn't just junk at everything but throwing stuff and then I run into this mess. A discussion or new thoughts on throwing adepts would be appreciated. Also note that my realization applies to bow adepts, but those have fallen out of style.
Medicineman
QUOTE
Does a specialization factor into weapon skill?

I doubt it because the spec. does NOT raise the Skill.Its just a modifier !
thats a big difference to SR2 & 3 where a spec. was just another Skill/part of the Skill that could even be raised seperately.
Lots of People still think of the spec. as a Kind of Skill which it ain't (anymore)!

QUOTE
So basically after realizing this, the krav maga specialty where you can ready weapons as a free action seems ideal,

There are some that want to use Krav Maga to fast Draw Bows& Arrows ohplease.gif So You should be careful with that

HougH!
Medicineman
mmmkay
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Feb 21 2012, 01:25 AM) *
I doubt it because the spec. does NOT raise the Skill.Its just a modifier !
thats a big difference to SR2 & 3 where a spec. was just another Skill/part of the Skill that could even be raised seperately.
Lots of People still think of the spec. as a Kind of Skill which it ain't (anymore)!


Thank you, I need to be whacked over the head a few times to be reminded.

QUOTE
There are some that want to use Krav Maga to fast Draw Bows& Arrows ohplease.gif So You should be careful with that

HougH!
Medicineman


Well, I'm not sure I understand this, but I was thinking in the context of readying throwing weapons like shuriken and throwing knives. I assume the point you are making is that ready weapon can either be used to ready the bow or nock an arrow, but not both? Is that what I'm supposedly being careful with? I guess I did off-handedly mention bow adepts, but they are a bit weirder than throwing adepts I suppose.

Also why'd you capitalize the last H in HougH!? I would like to trade my guttural nonsense for a dance please. nyahnyah.gif
Medicineman
Well, the point is that there is no Regiment of Longbow Archers in the Israeli Defense Force
So they don't teach to fast draw an Arrow with Krav Maga
It simply "clashes " with may sense of reality/ of Martial Arts.
I wouldn't mind a separate Martial Arts with Bows (You might call it Dai-Kyutsu or whatever) that teaches You to fast draw with Arrows .I'd even like it ,but Not Krav Maga....
Its like getting the Kick Maneuver and tying a monowhip to Your Legs to get a Reach of 3 with Whips..... Gnarghh sarcastic.gif

And the H....sometimes its because my Fingers are to fast and it happens by accident when I "capitalize " the !

Hough
Medicineman
The Jake
You know, after playing this game for over 20 years (WTF, that long???) a complaint about thrown weapons has never come up. Probably because HMGs, explosives, rockets, spells and spirits just own face. So I can't really relate to this one.

If it bothers you, just house rule it and call it a day?

- J.
mmmkay
I don't disagree. It is also like using the full offense maneuver with guns. Or Focus Will to summon spirits.

@J - I suppose it boils down to a love of complaining and a joy of trying new ideas.
Medicineman
Or Focus Will to summon spirits.
Wait a Sec ! upsidedown.gif
Focus Will to resist Drain (from Summoning) Is perfectly OK ImO
I use it with my Astral Adept ("Mo Ri" surged Orkish buddhist Monk with Martial Arts)

with a Shaolin Dance
Medicineman
Grinder
Ok, you using it at your table totally justifies it. grinbig.gif
mmmkay
Focus Will to improve drain resistance is about as seemingly out-of-place as it gets. I mean I suppose RAW it's fine.
UmaroVI
Uh, that's pretty much what focus will is for. It's really hard to do anything else with it, and there's at least one martial art that specifically mentions that Awakened people find it useful (Kiai). I see no problem here.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Feb 21 2012, 09:25 AM) *
I doubt it because the spec. does NOT raise the Skill.Its just a modifier !
thats a big difference to SR2 & 3 where a spec. was just another Skill/part of the Skill that could even be raised seperately.
Lots of People still think of the spec. as a Kind of Skill which it ain't (anymore)!
I disagree. It is a conditional modifier. If you quickdraw shuriken and have the shuriken specialization, you use the thrown weapon skill with shurikens so the condition is met and it should apply.
UmaroVI
I just ran the numbers, and actually, I think Quickdraw is fine for this. An adept who wants to focus on throwing weapons (see for example the Former Neoprimitive archetype in my sig) can quite reasonably get the odds of failing quickdraw down under 2%.
Yerameyahu
Spec should not count. Or, rather, it *should*, because it *shouldn't* be a DP modifier. But it is. That's why people are always abusing spec for multi-actions; you can't have your cake and eat it too. smile.gif
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 21 2012, 03:12 PM) *
Spec should not count. Or, rather, it *should*, because it *shouldn't* be a DP modifier. But it is. That's why people are always abusing spec for multi-actions; you can't have your cake and eat it too. smile.gif
It isn't abuse, if you make something even remotely viable. If you have your adept with two force +x weapon foci and specialization hacking at the opposition in broad daylight (i.e. no negative modifiers), the opposition is doing something wrong. Even then, the adept probably has a smaller dice pool than he would if he attacked only once. Two-weapon style is much more overpowered in melee.

If you consider specialization an augmentation to the skill, how would you handle the use of a specialized weapon and an unspecialized one? Are those two different skills i.e. the smaller one is used and the specialization is wasted? Or can the player "abuse" the system in giving the unspecialized weapon a larger dice pool?
Paul
Maybe I'm just being too reasonable but in real life the pucker factor means you often, even after relentless practice in dynamic training scenario's, don't do it right. The game isn't a perfect emulation, and I'm good with that.
Neraph
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Feb 21 2012, 03:23 AM) *
Well, the point is that there is no Regiment of Longbow Archers in the Israeli Defense Force
So they don't teach to fast draw an Arrow with Krav Maga

It should be noted that you only have 1 Free Action per Initiative Pass... otherwise, using quick movements intended for daggers and assault rifles is little different than moving around bows and arrows - you just need to move them quickly into different positions.
Yerameyahu
Dakka Dakka, I was talking about abusing DP-mods for multi-actions in general. smile.gif But the point is that you have to pick one: either Spec is skill, or it's DP-mod.
UmaroVI
Yerameyahu, I'm not following why you think Specialization being a dice pool modifier (which, I agree, it is) would mean it doesn't apply on Quickdraw? Quickdrawing is a test using Reaction+Skill. The rule says that "Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill". You are making a test for that skill. So you add +2 dice.
Yerameyahu
I'm not talking about that. Someone said that Spec counts as skill; it doesn't. smile.gif
Mäx
QUOTE (mmmkay @ Feb 21 2012, 10:07 AM) *
On the other hand if you are an adept that is a specialist in thrown weapons then presumably you are counted on to to be a reliable source of damage and maybe I'm risk averse, but I can imagine choking too easily on a quick draw attempt.

I dont really see a combat adept specialising on the weapon type he's trying to quick draw failing often.
After all a skill of 6 alone will succeed on that test every time on avarage, a reaction of 6(that you should easily have) means you on avarage get twice the amount of successes you need.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 21 2012, 08:29 PM) *
I'm not talking about that. Someone said that Spec counts as skill; it doesn't. smile.gif

Actually some one said that it doesn't count as a skill and based on that said it's not added to the quick draw test, witch ofcource make no sense as you add modifiers to that test just like you do for all other tests.
Medicineman
and someone (me) said/wrote that a Spec is not a skill but a Modifier
and that this is a big difference to SR2 & 3
....maybe my Post started this Avalanche of Misunderstandings ....?
We'd better "reboot "

JahtaHey
Medicineman
Trigger
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Feb 21 2012, 02:51 PM) *
We'd better "reboot "


I thought you were talking about skills and modifiers, not awesome TV shows about the matrix grinbig.gif
Medicineman
sometimes I'm talking about 2 or 3 Things/Items/Topics at the same time
and my Dance is about a fourth one



with 4 different Dances and none goes back to Topic
Medicineman
UmaroVI
So how 'bout them Barghests?
mmmkay
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Feb 21 2012, 06:53 AM) *
I just ran the numbers, and actually, I think Quickdraw is fine for this. An adept who wants to focus on throwing weapons (see for example the Former Neoprimitive archetype in my sig) can quite reasonably get the odds of failing quickdraw down under 2%.


I checked your signature. Neat character. I'm pretty sure obtaining 9 in throwing weapons and 7 in reaction is not the norm for a throwing adept, but I suppose I can still work out my point. Yes the odds of failing on a single quick draw test is low in this case. Partially because your character has a high throwing weapons + reaction, but also because you're using the adept power quick draw. The odds of failure are closer to 6% if you were using Iaijutsu. I suppose my complaint was that you have to quick draw every simple action, because you're not readying more than one item per simple action. Although this is a moot point with your character because you toss around crazy sauce like combat axes and nets, which cannot be readied in multiples. So for instance your chance of imperfection in quick drawing in a single IP is 2.7% and your chance of imperfection over all 3 IPs is 7.9%, which is still low. Your character is reliable. The equivalent failure chances for a 6 reaction, 6 throwing weapons, and using the quick draw adept power is nearly 10% and nearly 26%, respectively. Those are not reliable odds.

Note your damage codes were incorrect: You should be doing 9 P with throwing knives and 11 P with combat axes. Also where did you get -4 for the concealability for throwing knives?

At any rate, the better the build then the better the quick draw reliability and the worse the build then krav magaing throwing knives is better. Since "A character can ready a number of small throwing weapons, such as throwing knives or shuriken, equal to one-half his Agility (round down) per Ready Weapon action." - SR4a p. 147, does that mean if you had the Missile Mastery adept power you could pull one-half agility pencils or coins from your pocket in a ready weapon action? How small is small? Throwing knives and shuriken are small throwing weapons and throwing knives have concealability -4... so ask your GM...


QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Feb 22 2012, 04:43 AM) *
So how 'bout them Barghests?


lol, btw I refer to your archetypes all the time, especially your transhuman mystic... so good, but so ugly
UmaroVI
Yeah, it's a lot harder with Iaijutsu. If you're an adept with Throwing Weapons, though, it isn't too hard to get into the very low failure rates. 6 skill + 7 reaction + 3 Improved Combat Ability + 2 specialization is 18 dice which is well more than enough. You're right, though, about there being a threshold below which throwing weapons kind of suck.

Crap, you're right, I seem to have done the damage codes wrong. Thanks for catching that.

The -4 concealability on the knives is after factoring in the Lined Coat (which gives -2 for objects hidden under it).

I'm glad you like the Neoprimitive. It's one of the stranger archetypes, but I still find the 200m-range boomerang of death immensely funny.
mmmkay
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Feb 22 2012, 08:18 AM) *
Yeah, it's a lot harder with Iaijutsu. If you're an adept with Throwing Weapons, though, it isn't too hard to get into the very low failure rates. 6 skill + 7 reaction + 3 Improved Combat Ability + 2 specialization is 18 dice which is well more than enough. You're right, though, about there being a threshold below which throwing weapons kind of suck.


So for the most part specializations for throwing weapons don't apply unless you're quick drawing throwing knives

QUOTE
Crap, you're right, I seem to have done the damage codes wrong. Thanks for catching that.


No problem. At first I thought you were wrong when I said the damage code for molotov cocktails, but missile mastery is magic.

QUOTE
The -4 concealability on the knives is after factoring in the Lined Coat (which gives -2 for objects hidden under it).


I suppose throwing knives and knives are nearly the same size. Makes sense.

QUOTE
I'm glad you like the Neoprimitive. It's one of the stranger archetypes, but I still find the 200m-range boomerang of death immensely funny.


Technically I said I like the Transhuman Mystic, but the Neoprimitive is pretty interesting. The Neoprimitive could be improved in terms of damage output and overall accuracy if you used a full cyberarm. You could maximize both agility and strength easily, but you would need restricted gear. I'm not sure if restricted gear is banned by missions or not. One of the things that is kinda lame on the style side is throwing a boomerang. Imagine the scenario: Super cool amazing throwing adept flicks a pair of coins through his fingers and in the blink of an eye pitches one through the skull of a nearby security guard. The coin landed face up, the bodyguard landed face down. The second coin pierces the throat of the second body guard as he comes to investigate the thump of his buddy's body hit the ground. He tries to call for help, but is silenced by the laminated ID card of Joe bodyguard. Later that day, there is a distant man lining up a shot on our fine upstanding gentleman adept. With a smirk Mr. Adept pulls out a blood stained boomerang and with a tremendous snap and crack the boomerang is nowhere to be seen. Mr. Sniper sees the rang protruding from his eye cavity and with a laugh says "he rang my bell".

Some cheesiness involved, but yea boomerangs being the ideal ranged weapon for a throwing adept is lulz. Let's see some monofilament discuses or fanged frisbees or something.
UmaroVI
It's definitely true that the cyberarm would (at least short term) pay off. I didn't go with one on that character because the only real advantage to being a throwing adept over just using a gun is the whole "not relying on the sort of weapons that scanners and stuff will find" angle, and having a cyberarm with restricted stuff in it really hurts that.
mmmkay
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Feb 22 2012, 02:02 PM) *
It's definitely true that the cyberarm would (at least short term) pay off. I didn't go with one on that character because the only real advantage to being a throwing adept over just using a gun is the whole "not relying on the sort of weapons that scanners and stuff will find" angle, and having a cyberarm with restricted stuff in it really hurts that.


The only restricted stuff in a cybearm that aims to increase strength and agility are the enhancements to strength and agility. Having a customized limb is not restricted, but adding enhancements to body, strength, and agility is restricted. Interestingly enough armor enhancements are not restricted. I'm not sure your average person would be put on high alert if someone had a cyberarm with enhancements any more than they'd be put on high alert if someone was a hulking troll.
UmaroVI
I'm assuming you would have Strength/Agility enhancements. The legality system is kind of a mess, but as-is, having an arm with Strength Enhancement is legally the same as having an AK-97.
Yerameyahu
QUOTE
I'm not sure your average person would be put on high alert if someone had a cyberarm with enhancements any more than they'd be put on high alert if someone was a hulking troll.
Meaning, yes in both cases? smile.gif
mmmkay
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 23 2012, 06:03 AM) *
Meaning, yes in both cases? smile.gif


Meaning that as I would imagine it: being a large troll puts people on alert as much as a cyberarm with enhancements does, but at the very least it takes some skill to determine if a cyberarm has enhancements.

It should be obvious someone is a gargantuan troll, but I'm not sure how obvious a highly customized or heavily enhanced cyberarm is differentiated from a basic cyberarm.
Yerameyahu
I think it's assumed you're walking through a scanner. That's what I took Umaro to be talking about when he highlighted the virtue of throwing adept not needing to carry weapons. smile.gif
UmaroVI
Right. If you're not walking through a scanner, it is simple enough to just be a street samurai and shove a machine pistol up your ass.
mmmkay
Ah I suppose I didn't get the argument. Cool cool. Well I suppose it's easy enough, just more expensive with higher availability to get a customized cyberarm that is unrestricted and optimally strong/agile.
UmaroVI
You can't exceed your (unaugmented) racial maximum without enhancements.
mmmkay
Oh right, UmaroVI you remember the rules very well.
Phatpug
QUOTE (mmmkay @ Feb 21 2012, 12:07 AM) *
Both of these skills do as advertised for SMGs, swords, arrows, etc. To my disappointment after carefully reading both the power and the maneuver do not grant ready weapon and throw weapon in a single simple action. You literally can only pick up only one throwing weapon and throw it in a simple action. In my mind, I thought you could ready a few throwing knives and then toss one in a simple action. You'd have to have a pretty high reaction + weapons skill to never fail the quick draw test, I was working out some numbers for it and especially iaijutsu makes the error rate pretty high. My original thoughts on quick drawing was that it'd be good because you could basically do it on the first IP of combat and repeat it every 3 IPs or so, but having to do it every simple action is asking for failure.


You can only quick draw and throw one weapon. It makes sense if you think about it. As soon as the weapon clears its sheath you are throwing it. You can take a Ready Weapon Action to ready one-half agility (rounded down) number of small throwing weapons. SR4A pg 147.


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