Dual Beings and astral combat, or, how can there even be shapeshifters? Options

[Chinane]

The way i'm reading astral combat for (non spellcasting/projecting) dual beings is, it is treated just like physical combat, using their physical stats and melee range?

Then how can there even BE non-magician shapeshifters?

They should all be extinct, as all it needs is ONE malevolent spirit with ranged combat capabilities to simply float out of range above them and kill them at its leisure. Surely every single shapeshifter should have encountered one of those at least once in his lifespan?

[Yerameyahu]

Yup. Same for ghouls, paracritters, etc.

[Chinane]

So, what's the solution? Infinite melee range?

[Yerameyahu]

Hiding in tunnels, and rare spirits.

[almost normal]

I get what you're saying, but at the same time, why do animals exist in SR, when all it'd take is some ticked off spirit to manifest?

There is a very fun side-effect though. Make a shapeshifter. Have the group mage go astral. Grab onto the astral mage tightly, and then have him fly off. Poof, you're moving at the speed of thought.

[The Jopp]

There is a very fun side-effect though. Make a shapeshifter. Have the group mage go astral. Grab onto the astral mage tightly, and then have him fly off. Poof, you're moving at the speed of thought.

There is a problem with that logic.

1: There is nothing in the rules that say that mages on the astral can affect physical objects
2: Neither can an astral form move a another astral form tied to a physical object (body).

This can on the other hand be a good thing for shifters and ghouls who could in that case grab the annoying astral form and pummel it into the astral ground until it is lying in its little puddle of mana.

[Elfenlied]

There is a very fun side-effect though. Make a shapeshifter. Have the group mage go astral. Grab onto the astral mage tightly, and then have him fly off. Poof, you're moving at the speed of thought.

Have fun while the DM describes all the flies and other insects entering your various cavities. And friction might be a *female dog*.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, we have to presume that dual-natured forms are 'infinitely heavier' than astral forms. Astral forms *can* interact with each other 'physically' (they can't occupy the same space, etc.), but we shouldn't assume an astral-only form can move a dual-natured one. If you're dual-natured and get punched by an astral form, I assume a bruise just appears on your face 'magically'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes, dual-natured beings should be able to potentially grab and hold an astral form.

Besides friction, what about G-forces? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) This would be stronger as a weapon.

[almost normal]

Have fun while the DM describes all the flies and other insects entering your various cavities. And friction might be a *female dog*.

I respect my GM far too much to interrupt a story by intentionally trying to bend the universe. It's just interesting to me that it's theoretically possible. Another piece on the table to solve some future puzzle. Hopefully while wearing a full motorcycle helmet.

[almost normal]

Besides friction, what about G-forces? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) This would be stronger as a weapon.

That's the other part. I'm not certain Astrals have inertia. If they decide to go from standstill to top speed, they might just remove a few limbs from the hapless shifter, who's now thankfull that he can regenerate.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, it's impossible anyway, by my view. (How much can an astral form lift? There is no answer.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) We barely even know 'how big is a spirit?'.

But yeah: were it possible, the problems would be significant. And hilarious! On the other hand, there also aren't rules for air friction damage, G-force damage, or even 'ripping off an arm' damage, AFAIK? There *is* ramming damage, so what you really need is a mage going kamikaze with a dual-natured payload.

[Daylen]

That's the other part. I'm not certain Astrals have inertia. If they decide to go from standstill to top speed, they might just remove a few limbs from the hapless shifter, who's now thankfull that he can regenerate.

The fact that Astral forms don't have acceleration, only a top speed implies they are a massless wavefunction; meaning if interaction is possible the dual natured being would remain still and be able to pummel the astral form and the astral form could not move the dual natured being, not enough momentum. Astral forms are like photons, it would take ridiculous amounts of them to slightly move anything with rest mass.

[Yerameyahu]

Right, except without all the pseudophysics. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) It's magic.

[snowRaven]

Well, there IS an 'astral strength' attribute...so in theory we could 'just' apply the standard lifting rules to charisma...

As for the original problem, it exists to a lesser degree for everything - how can there be any normal people left when all it takes is one malevolent free spirit with a decent ranged combat spell/power to kill them? (or influence them, etc).

[Yerameyahu]

Because that spirit has to be materialized, and people have guns. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[thorya]

Well, there IS an 'astral strength' attribute...so in theory we could 'just' apply the standard lifting rules to charisma...

As for the original problem, it exists to a lesser degree for everything - how can there be any normal people left when all it takes is one malevolent free spirit with a decent ranged combat spell/power to kill them? (or influence them, etc).

Or for that matter, how can there be really any animals left? Humans have guns, poisons, and traps, we should be able to just cruise around the world in attack helicopters blowing the shit out of things until there's nothing left. It's possible, why hasn't it happened? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Oh, right, there isn't a big motivation to do that. When there is, I'm sure paracritters get owned just as hard as ducks when they're in season. And for the few random anti-animal guys going around just killing things for fun, usually they can't find all of the little fuzzy critters or if they try to scale up other people take notice and put in laws like "hunting seasons" and "discharging a firearm within city limits" and "animal cruelty" and "child endangerment". Maybe spirits do the same thing? Or Dragons. For all we know, 2076 might be the year that the spirits start rounding up and toasting people until they reach their 1,000 person bag limit and they have to wait for the next time the stars alignment for the next hunting season. Until then, maybe they're screaming to themselves "he's coming right at me!" every time they toast a runner or guard, just so that everyone knows it was self defense and not sport. Hell, maybe that's why magic failed thousands of years ago, all the bad karma from a genocide perpetuated by spirits, just for the hell of it, and now they're hesitant to just kill things at random. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Zoot]

Well, there IS an 'astral strength' attribute...so in theory we could 'just' apply the standard lifting rules to charisma...

That is my take on it. If the Astral strength of an entity is enough to lift/carry the physical weight of a dual natured item/creature, it works for me. However, because of inertia of the physical item, the Astral entity cannot fly at the speed of thought while carrying the physical item/creature - it is restricted to normal movement, albeit with 4IPs.

And yes, that does make careless mages with active foci and no Astral protection vulnerable. Laugh as the mage screams as his earring flies off into the sky (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

No, it still doesn't work, because of all the other 'physics' stuff.

Or for that matter, how can there be really any animals left? Humans have guns, poisons, and traps, we should be able to just cruise around the world in attack helicopters blowing the shit out of things until there's nothing left. It's possible, why hasn't it happened?

… This did happen. A lot. Everywhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[snowRaven]

No, it still doesn't work, because of all the other 'physics' stuff.

… This did happen. A lot. Everywhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Still happens.

[snowRaven]

For all we know, 2076 might be the year that the spirits start rounding up and toasting people until they reach their 1,000 person bag limit and they have to wait for the next time the stars alignment for the next hunting season. Until then, maybe they're screaming to themselves "he's coming right at me!" every time they toast a runner or guard, just so that everyone knows it was self defense and not sport. Hell, maybe that's why magic failed thousands of years ago, all the bad karma from a genocide perpetuated by spirits, just for the hell of it, and now they're hesitant to just kill things at random. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I like the way you think... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif)

[Magus]

Running Wild Pg 205:

Astral Combat
When dual-natured critters engage astral forms in
combat, they must use astral combat. Visually, it can
appear that the critter is fighting invisible assailants, or
the beast can grow eerily still as it thrusts its mind into
the attacker. Presuming the critter does not have powers
or spells to use on the astral, it engages with tooth, claw,
and mind.
After Initiative is rolled, the dual-natured creature will
attack on its action. Attacks are made using Willpower +
Astral Combat.
Damage can either be the physical damage
that the critter would normally do with an unarmed attack
or Charisma ÷ 2 (round up). Venom, disease, or other physical
accompaniments to the critter’s attacks are not used in
astral combat.
Purely astral beings are capable of using the heightened
speed available on the astral plane to break combat,
though moving at the speed of thought is not viable in
astral combat. The astral presence of the dual-natured
individual is able to block an astral form, the same way that
a physical body stops a physical person.

[Chinane]

Running Wild Pg 205: [...]

I fail to see the relevance to the dual being/critter being completely helpless against a spirit floating above it out of melee range.

[Magus]

I fail to see the relevance to the dual being/critter being completely helpless against a spirit floating above it out of melee range.

or
the beast can grow eerily still as it thrusts its mind into
the attacker.

[Chinane]

Or for that matter, how can there be really any animals left? Humans have guns, poisons, and traps, we should be able to just cruise around the world in attack helicopters blowing the shit out of things until there's nothing left. It's possible, why hasn't it happened? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Counted the american bison population lately? Or the african rhinoceros?

And that's with regular greedy and stupid humans, not spirits specifically described as malevolent (for example shadow/toxic spirits). Which can't be THAT few, at least not if you're going by the background books.

[Chinane]

or
the beast can grow eerily still as it thrusts its mind into
the attacker.

So willpower attacks are LOS ?