The way i'm reading astral combat for (non spellcasting/projecting) dual beings is, it is treated just like physical combat, using their physical stats and melee range?

Then how can there even BE non-magician shapeshifters?

They should all be extinct, as all it needs is ONE malevolent spirit with ranged combat capabilities to simply float out of range above them and kill them at its leisure. Surely every single shapeshifter should have encountered one of those at least once in his lifespan?

Yup. Same for ghouls, paracritters, etc.

So, what's the solution? Infinite melee range?

Hiding in tunnels, and rare spirits.

I get what you're saying, but at the same time, why do animals exist in SR, when all it'd take is some ticked off spirit to manifest?

There is a very fun side-effect though. Make a shapeshifter. Have the group mage go astral. Grab onto the astral mage tightly, and then have him fly off. Poof, you're moving at the speed of thought.

There is a problem with that logic.

1: There is nothing in the rules that say that mages on the astral can affect physical objects
2: Neither can an astral form move a another astral form tied to a physical object (body).

This can on the other hand be a good thing for shifters and ghouls who could in that case grab the annoying astral form and pummel it into the astral ground until it is lying in its little puddle of mana.

Have fun while the DM describes all the flies and other insects entering your various cavities. And friction might be a *female dog*.

Yeah, we have to presume that dual-natured forms are 'infinitely heavier' than astral forms. Astral forms *can* interact with each other 'physically' (they can't occupy the same space, etc.), but we shouldn't assume an astral-only form can move a dual-natured one. If you're dual-natured and get punched by an astral form, I assume a bruise just appears on your face 'magically'.

Yes, dual-natured beings should be able to potentially grab and hold an astral form.

Besides friction, what about G-forces? This would be stronger as a weapon.

I respect my GM far too much to interrupt a story by intentionally trying to bend the universe. It's just interesting to me that it's theoretically possible. Another piece on the table to solve some future puzzle. Hopefully while wearing a full motorcycle helmet.

That's the other part. I'm not certain Astrals have inertia. If they decide to go from standstill to top speed, they might just remove a few limbs from the hapless shifter, who's now thankfull that he can regenerate.

Well, it's impossible anyway, by my view. (How much can an astral form lift? There is no answer.) We barely even know 'how big is a spirit?'.

But yeah: were it possible, the problems would be significant. And hilarious! On the other hand, there also aren't rules for air friction damage, G-force damage, or even 'ripping off an arm' damage, AFAIK? There *is* ramming damage, so what you really need is a mage going kamikaze with a dual-natured payload.

The fact that Astral forms don't have acceleration, only a top speed implies they are a massless wavefunction; meaning if interaction is possible the dual natured being would remain still and be able to pummel the astral form and the astral form could not move the dual natured being, not enough momentum. Astral forms are like photons, it would take ridiculous amounts of them to slightly move anything with rest mass.

Right, except without all the pseudophysics. It's magic.

Well, there IS an 'astral strength' attribute...so in theory we could 'just' apply the standard lifting rules to charisma...

As for the original problem, it exists to a lesser degree for everything - how can there be any normal people left when all it takes is one malevolent free spirit with a decent ranged combat spell/power to kill them? (or influence them, etc).

Because that spirit has to be materialized, and people have guns.

Or for that matter, how can there be really any animals left? Humans have guns, poisons, and traps, we should be able to just cruise around the world in attack helicopters blowing the shit out of things until there's nothing left. It's possible, why hasn't it happened?

Oh, right, there isn't a big motivation to do that. When there is, I'm sure paracritters get owned just as hard as ducks when they're in season. And for the few random anti-animal guys going around just killing things for fun, usually they can't find all of the little fuzzy critters or if they try to scale up other people take notice and put in laws like "hunting seasons" and "discharging a firearm within city limits" and "animal cruelty" and "child endangerment". Maybe spirits do the same thing? Or Dragons. For all we know, 2076 might be the year that the spirits start rounding up and toasting people until they reach their 1,000 person bag limit and they have to wait for the next time the stars alignment for the next hunting season. Until then, maybe they're screaming to themselves "he's coming right at me!" every time they toast a runner or guard, just so that everyone knows it was self defense and not sport. Hell, maybe that's why magic failed thousands of years ago, all the bad karma from a genocide perpetuated by spirits, just for the hell of it, and now they're hesitant to just kill things at random.

That is my take on it. If the Astral strength of an entity is enough to lift/carry the physical weight of a dual natured item/creature, it works for me. However, because of inertia of the physical item, the Astral entity cannot fly at the speed of thought while carrying the physical item/creature - it is restricted to normal movement, albeit with 4IPs.

And yes, that does make careless mages with active foci and no Astral protection vulnerable. Laugh as the mage screams as his earring flies off into the sky

No, it still doesn't work, because of all the other 'physics' stuff.

… This did happen. A lot. Everywhere.

Still happens.

I like the way you think...

Running Wild Pg 205:

I fail to see the relevance to the dual being/critter being completely helpless against a spirit floating above it out of melee range.

or
the beast can grow eerily still as it thrusts its mind into
the attacker.

Counted the american bison population lately? Or the african rhinoceros?

And that's with regular greedy and stupid humans, not spirits specifically described as malevolent (for example shadow/toxic spirits). Which can't be THAT few, at least not if you're going by the background books.

So willpower attacks are LOS ?

that is what I am reading by RAW. Your damage would be Charisma/2 or the standard physical damage a critter with the natural weapon power does automatically if it scores a hit with Willpower + Astral Combat.

Both of these are outside the realm of Astral Combat as a melee skill, and are much more of the "with snipers around why isn't everyone dead?" thought process. Dual-Natured is a NEGATIVE Quality, there are drawbacks to it. Some aspects can be circumvented, others can't.

… Is Dual-Natured a negative quality? I didn't think it was a Quality at all.

There are no known ranged weapons that function in Astral Space (SR4A, p. 193). Astral Combat functions as an Unarmed Attack, and can be either lashing out with fists and claws, or they stand still and lash out with force of will--either way, it still functions as a melee attack.

I don't believe this to be correct. I'm pretty sure you're reading too much into the fluff description of what a dual-natured critter's Astral Combat might look like on the real world (where you can't see the action). There's nothing there that specifically mentions ranged combat is possible, and SR4A p. 193 heavily implies that ranged combat is not, except through the use of spells: "...unarmed attacks, active weapon foci, and mana spells are the only options for astral combat."

I think a dual-natured critter standing stock-still and just lashing out (at melee range) with the force of its personality is a neat mental image, but I don't think it's meant to imply that they can do so at LOS range.

But Bishop that quote I found directly in Running Wild in the Powers section says that Astral Combat could be mental for dual natured beings ie hellhounds as it reads in the entire segment on pg 205

Yes, Magus. As Critias mentioned and I tried to clarify, it is a style choice. Nowhere does it say the Hellhound can send it's mind at LOS. When the Hellhound sees an astral instruder it can bite the intruder. Animals without a natural weapon lash out with their will.

Exactly, we use to be able to kill the shit out of things because we like the way their horns looked on our wall and then some higher powers like governments stepped in and made us stop. Sooner or later, shadow/toxic spirits are going to get put down by something, whether a more powerful Spirit or a Dragon. Sure you will still have toxic spirit poachers, but hunting all awakened creatures to extinction probably won't happen.

Hmmm. I guess I will have to rethink my Wolf Shifter on his Astral Combat skill

IIRC, in YotC (SR3) it was a changeling flaw. As of SR4a it is listed as a critter power, not a critter weakness, and not listed as a changeling quality as far as I've seen. There was a thread some time ago about the BP cost/gain for changelings and being dual natured that seemed to have stirred some very strong opinions one way or the other on that subject.

I'm not talking about hunting, i'm talking about randomly passing a spirit that will simply attack anything that approaches its 'lair' on the astral plane. Which statistically has to happen eventually, given their frequency in the rulebooks.

Unless the spirit kills the shapeshifter on the first attack, chances are the shifter will run and the spirit will stay behind. Few beings will kill trespassing intruders by default; they'll try to drive them away. There's nothing in fluff or rules that suggests spirits will be any different - or even that they have astral 'lairs' (and if they do, most spirits are intelligent enough tp ick a spot where astral intruders are less likely). Plus, the shapeshifter will be just as likely to see the spirit first and stay clear.

If anything, the prevalance of shapeshifters and other dual natured beings clearly suggest that such malevolent violent spirits would be very rare, if they exist at all.

Isn't this just the reverse argument? 'If violent spirits can so easily kill D-Ns, the fact that D-Ns exist must mean there aren't violent spirits?'.

Shhh!

(Yes, it is - since we have clear evidence in the rules of shapeshifters, ghouls etc surviving and thriving, but no clear evidence of any significant prevalence of violent dualicidal spirits, this can be taken as evidence that the latter barely exist (at least not in areas populated by dual natured beings))

Hehe. I think that conclusion assumes the game world/rules *aren't* messed up. That's quite an assumption for SR4, and I think it's exactly what the original question was actually asking.

there's also the possibility, that the rate of Adepts and Magicians among DNs is very high. Those can learn Masking and/or Stunbolting (for protecting their pack).

Well, my question originated from the thought that DNs need to be mystic or full magician in order to survive floaters.

I'm not sure where the masking comes into play, though. AFAIK masking doesn't suppress being astrally active.

It doesn't, and yes they would have to be spellcasters in order to do distance attacks on the astral.

I'm not at all convinced that there would have to be malevolent spirits targeting dual beings, though. You can apply this to any being without distance attacks, even in the real world. All it takes is one malevolent materialized free spirit with some distance attack to commit massmurder in mundane populations without a nearby mage or really heavy guns. Or a mage with invisibility and manabolt. Or someone with a military armor and heavy firepower.

Chances are that even if a spirit would go on a rampage, those targeted would call in help. For every crazy astral killer spirit there's probably a spirit willing to counter it, or a capable conjurer who summons up a bunch of spirits to go out and look for the offender and stop it once it's killed a certain number of the conjuror's friends.

Digital Grimoire says, most spirits aren't malevolent:

Yeah, I mean, it's not like anyone has a reason to send spirits on ghoul hunting missions. I mean, if there were bounties on ghouls, or, you know, some good reason for a decent number of people to want them all exterminated, or something like that, it would be different.

I take that to mean mass-produced.

Seriously, shoot a bee-hive out of a sabot while the spirit's entangled in a black vine. BLAMM-O.

If that's how you'd like to house rule it for your own game, that's a fair way to take it. But, canonically, you're pretty much incorrect, here. Ranged combat just doesn't work on the Astral, barring specific metaplane weirdness.

But metaplanes aren't the astral, so... =)

However, an angry dual being in a catapult could be used as an astral ranged weapon of sorts...not very effective, and a b*tch to reload, but still...

Well, there are actually bounties on ghouls (and other infected) in some countries. The CAS & UCAS both pay 1,500 nuyen a head for a ghoul (RW, page 64).

Which was UmaroVI's actual point...