Free Spirit 'Realistic Form', Are there any limitations? Options

[Aria]

Warning: I've not read the rules recently so this may all be clearly stated there, so appologies if it is...

So can a 'realistic form spirit' manifest as anything it wants? Are there limitations on scale / looks / etc...

For example could they manifest as a dragon? An aircraft carrier? A city? Ok, the last two are silly but still, you get my point? I guess a reasonable thing to do would say it has a maximum area equal to the spirit's force?

Thanks

[Yerameyahu]

AFAIK, the rules are totally vague. It gives a couple examples (car, toaster?), but even those might be problematic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Neraph]

Realistic Form only allows it to look real. Mutable Form would be needed to make it look like anything. The two would make the spirit not only look like a toaster, but be able to be plugged in and actually toast toast also. While RAW there is no size limit for spirits, there should be some sort of logical endpoint - as always, your GM is the final arbitrator in that matter.

[The Jopp]

Realistic Form only allows it to look real. Mutable Form would be needed to make it look like anything. The two would make the spirit not only look like a toaster, but be able to be plugged in and actually toast toast also. While RAW there is no size limit for spirits, there should be some sort of logical endpoint - as always, your GM is the final arbitrator in that matter.

Would be kinda hilarious if someone electrocutes a manifested toaster spirit by plugging it into an outlet.

[Jhaiisiin]

I'd allow for a spirit to have a single set realistic form for them to manifest into. That form would work exactly as desired. If they wanted to change to another form, that's what you'd need mutable form for.

[The Jake]

A spirit with Materialisation has one designated form. Allies for example can have multiples. Where it all breaks down for me is how people can tell a form is 'magical' based on the Force. Doesn't sound like Realistic Form actually offers that much to me...

- J.

[pbangarth]

Would be kinda hilarious if someone electrocutes a manifested toaster spirit by plugging it into an outlet.

The example in the book actually allows the spirit materialized as a toaster to be used to toast bread. It just can't be controlled electronically. In our home campaign, the GM put a limit on Mutable Form, saying the forms allowable must conform to the BOD restrictions for Shapechange, ie. +or - 2.

[pbangarth]

A spirit with Materialisation has one designated form. Allies for example can have multiples. Where it all breaks down for me is how people can tell a form is 'magical' based on the Force. Doesn't sound like Realistic Form actually offers that much to me...

- J.

Realistic Form gives the physical shape, and overcomes the 'spirit mask' effect on that shape. To cover the aura, Aura Masking is needed.

[Yerameyahu]

Even in a limited version, it seems nutty that a spirit can just become arbitrary *functional* things: people, objects, tech (and vague on the limits).

[The Jake]

Realistic Form gives the physical shape, and overcomes the 'spirit mask' effect on that shape. To cover the aura, Aura Masking is needed.

I'm talking physical appearance only. See Street Magic. What I am talking about are embedded rules which are entirely self defeating.

- J.

[Irion]

The major issue is, they do not change his "armor" or resistance to anything.
So lets say the spirit is a toaster. Hope the DV of beeing "electrocuted" is lower than your ItNW...
(So if you disguise as a toaster make sure to check your countries potential of the outlets.)

Same thing applys for beeing a gun.

So my take is the spirit has to take the punishment. The resistance of a brick of steel againts electricity is sky high...Thats not true for the spirit.

So yes, a small force spirit would be electrocuted. (And no, this is not contradicting RAW, it is just applying ALL rules.)
And yes, a high force spirit could be used for toasting bread. But I would say his force needs to be at least 8. (Unless you do not allow AP to apply for immunity)

An other question would be, how does a human form react to physical damage.
I would rule as a normal human does. Only thing is, if you cut off his arm, it disappears. and the blood you spill disappears too.
(Well, the range here is questionable. The arm could be lying on the floor if it still in the "form area" of the spirit)
But the spirit would not take damage. He could go T-1000 on you afterwards.

A question would be, if he could change his natural damage value with his form or for this he needs the natural weapon power...
(Because actually no matter how spirits look, they do the same damage. So I guess RAW you could have a bladearm and you would still do stundamage.)

[Dakka Dakka]

It is more than appearance. functionality is also gained by the spirit in realistic form. This means that the plugged in toaster spirit will not be electrocuted nor will the gun spirit be blown up if a bullet is shot from it. The only restriction to functionality is the lack of matrix connection.

No, Irion electrocuting the toaster spirit is not using all the rules, it is ignoring the rules of realistic form:

A spirit that appeared as an object mimics the object’s normal functionality; for example, a toaster could be plugged into the wall to toast bread (though it would have no Matrix link, making it an antique toaster).

Being damaged by electricity (normal current and voltage of course) is not part of the normal functionality of a toaster. So the toaster spirit should be really immune (in the normal sense of the word not hardened armor) against that. The same goes for guns. Normal wear and tear would of course apply.

[Irion]

@Dakka Dakka
And how is it contradicting?
He could do that, but if he is fried by electricity...
I can jump down the top from the empire state building, does not mean I survive it...

If this would work, it would mean the spirit gets immunity to electricity or at least the resistance to deal with it for free.

So no, I do not think it should work like that and neither do I think it is logical to work like that.
Even as a realistic form spirits still just emulate the properties or the material by mana. So if you want heating coils inside of you, you should be resistant to heat and electricity to begin with. Everything else is silly.

Think of a spirit transforming into a cube/spheare of steel.
Electricity? No damage.
Acid? Neither, if you take the right steel.
Fire? well, a simple flamethrower won't do.
Bullets? Well, after the rules for barriers their DV is cut down to 2 the immunity should do the trick but if you really stick to your argument he would at least get one time the armor raiting of steel...

Anyway: My interpretation does not stop a spirit from doing it. (Not contradicting the rules)
I just apply the rest of the rulebook and not handwave.

[The Jake]

So what spirit type would mimic the effects of a toaster?

- J.

[Irion]

@The Jake
It is a power for free spirits. So every free spirit type could do it.
The problem is not really the toaster, but if you let it fly, where does it end?

The question is, does the spirit need the attributes to bull of this stunt?
For example: A spirit transforms into an F-15.
Can he fly? How fast can he go? Can he use jet fuel?

If you allow it, there is no limitation on what could be done.

[Yerameyahu]

Which is why the whole rule should be scrapped. There's no reason I see for spirits to be able to turn into functional things. Appearing as nonfunctional things is totally fine; all other applicants may go possess a toaster. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Irion]

Which opens the same problems, again.

Now the toaster has a stun monitor. So if you annoy it with a taser it would "die" but not problem sticking (whatever it might be) in the outlet...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Or, you know, you go by what the actual rule states and ignore any real world comparisons.
Realistic Form allows you to assume a functional shape. Whether it be a Toaster, a Sword, a Yacht, or a Motorcycle. Some may want to include some sort of Body Restrictions, but really, it is not that necessary. Hell, there is even an in-Canon Ally spirit that takes the form of a Super Yacht, in one of the Novels. Is it really going to be that devastating to your campaign to allow such a thing?

It is a novel idea, I know, and groundbreaking to boot, but really, why must it be analyzed to death and then beat again and again?

[Yerameyahu]

Sigh. Your solution is *always* 'I'm sure no bad things could ever happen'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The point is that the power is so vague that it allows nearly unlimited functionality.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sigh. Your solution is *always* 'I'm sure no bad things could ever happen'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The point is that the power is so vague that it allows nearly unlimited functionality.

So what? Who cares? That is a discussion between the GM and the Player. The fact that it allows near unlimited functionality is irrelevant. It is there to allow you to create interesting ideas and run with them. If you were to demand absolutes all the time, your rule book would be 10" think and still not cover everything; and the game would be absolutely no fun to play, because you would be buried in minutia to the point of non-functionality. If you cannot come to a consensus between GM and the player, on something so trivial, then you are not trying hard enough.

*Sigh* It has nothing to do with "No bad things can ever happen" and you know it. I do not argue from that perspective very often (Even if at our table those "Bad Things" do NOT happen, because the players are mature enough to discuss it and come to a compromise). It has to do with cooperation in having a fun game to play. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If you are having issues with that, maybe it is not the rules at fault... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

The toaster spirit would be immune to standard wall socket electricity applied to it's electrical plug.

It's probably also immune to the heating effect of it's internal toasting coils.

It would not be immune to any other application of electricity or heat that a normal toaster would not be, beyond what ItNW provides.

I don't see how this is that complicated.


I would say, just because it's funny, that sticking a metal fork into the toaster would cause it to short circuit and possibly fry just like a normal toaster - it's outside the "normal" functioning of a toaster, so it would be treated as an elemental electricity attack at that point.




-k

[Yerameyahu]

My point is, TJ, that you argue from free-form: everything is okay, because the GM and players will just work it out. That's not what rules-based RPGs are for. The rules are there so the players and GM know the expected envelope for how any given thing functions. We might well say that guns do 'some amount of damage', and let the table wing it every time.

The GM can always fix anything. He shouldn't have to fix *anything*. All the rules in SR4 except the one (maybe hyperbole) under discussion follow this principle, so it's the odd man out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My point is, TJ, that you argue from free-form: everything is okay, because the GM and players will just work it out. That's not what rules-based RPGs are for. The rules are there so the players and GM know the expected envelope for how any given thing functions. We might well say that guns do 'some amount of damage', and let the table wing it every time.

The GM can always fix anything. He shouldn't have to fix *anything*.

Not Free-Form, as I do use the rules, and I am sure that you know that. I argue from the position that the GM has a job to do and he should do it. The problem is that you CANNOT Detail EVERYTHING in the rules, which is WHY you have a GM. There are plenty of vague rules in Shadowrun, and I often believe that it is by design, for a reason. To do otherwise is to never actually produce a rules system. You cannot cover everything in the excruciatingly detailed descriptions and rulings you say that you require. Thus, some guidelines for the GM and the players to come to a consensus upon.

Realistic Form is one of those guidelines. You cannot ask for detailed descriptions of how it is to function, and in what circumstances and situations, because they would STILL be providing them, 6+ years later. Better to provide a guideline and let the individual tables work them out. And No, I have NEVER seen Realistic Form cause the problems that you are indicating MAY occur in-game. NOT ONCE. Maybe that should tell you something. You say to get rid of it... which is interesting to me. I say use it and don't worry so much about every last little detail. Document your decision and move along.

Having a GM make decisions is what he is there for. Otherwise, why would you even need a GM? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The toaster spirit would be immune to standard wall socket electricity applied to it's electrical plug.

It's probably also immune to the heating effect of it's internal toasting coils.

It would not be immune to any other application of electricity or heat that a normal toaster would not be, beyond what ItNW provides.

I don't see how this is that complicated.


I would say, just because it's funny, that sticking a metal fork into the toaster would cause it to short circuit and possibly fry just like a normal toaster - it's outside the "normal" functioning of a toaster, so it would be treated as an elemental electricity attack at that point.


-k

Exactly. I agree with you KarmaInferno. Not sure why that is so complicated or difficult to understand. *shug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein

Exactly. I agree with you KarmaInferno. Not sure why that is so complicated or difficult to understand.

As is as Yerameyahu says. You may always argue, that everything is OK. There will never be a problem until there is a problem.

The point is, if you argue that way, you do not need rules in the first place. There will never be problems.

Rules are to fast check if something works or if something does not work. If everything works, you do not need rules.
Of course, the second somebody brings up crazy shit, you do not want it to work. So you only have a problem if people bring up crazy shit.
So you have a rule system which should tell you, that crazy shit does not work. (Why isn't it just consense? Well, simple: Not everybody agrees on what is crazy and what is not.)

@KarmaInferno
Why? If you have a good old metal toaster, simple design he is "immun" to any kind of electricity (Short of real lightning or the kind). Do not believe me? Shoot an old toaster with a teaser gun. He won't explode.