Resonance Trodes VS Astral, Who wins? Options

[Yerameyahu]

Hey, everyone contributes to the discussion in their own way, Irion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[almost normal]

Yep. Some people do it by reading through several pages of information and finding some true gems and pointing them out.

Others do it by pretending to form a consensus and ignoring several instances of printed text that contradicts them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

If there are any points you'd like to revisit, I'm happy to tear them up again. It's better to ignore the single phrase that doesn't fit, than the entire matrix and magic systems.

[CanRay]

Yep. Some people do it by reading through several pages of information and finding some true gems and pointing them out.

Others do it by pretending to form a consensus and ignoring several instances of printed text that contradicts them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And some just make smart ass remarks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

But that's why we like you, CanRay! That, and the sweet bitterness.

[almost normal]

The problem lies with trying to smash preconceived notions of how things should work into the rule which says how things do work.

There's a very strong argument that a Technomancer's persona is the modern version of the magician's astral-form. It seems odd that someone could so readily accept the "reality" of an astral projection being created, but then they try to claim a matrix persona being created "doesn't fit."

Seems obvious that there's an agenda clouding reality.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't see that the living persona (nor the normal persona, which it's supposed to mirror) is analogous to an astral form. Personas don't leave the body, and there's nowhere for them to go. The matrix is made of connections. On the other side, there are extensive rules about the astral form being separate from the body.

I can't imagine that this is personal for anyone, that anyone has 'an agenda'. Certainly not a 'pro-mage' one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Everyone hates mages, and this interaction barely seems relevant to mage power in the first place. The odds of a technomancer using Resonance Trodes on a projecting mage are so remote.

[almost normal]

Personas don't leave the body, and there's nowhere for them to go.

The resonance realms called. They say you're full of it.

[Yerameyahu]

That's quite a special case. Yes, you're right there; sorry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I thought, though, that we were talking about the matrix.

Are you suggesting that Resonance Trodes drags the subject to the resonance realms? If so, we're back to the problem that the rules give zero guidance about how that works (do they share the techno's resonance, do they become temporarily Emergent, etc.). Things that the equivalent astral/magic effects describe in detail.

[almost normal]

That's quite a special case. Yes, you're right there; sorry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I thought, though, that we were talking about the matrix.

Sorry for the confusion. I thought by referencing only technomancers, as opposed to hackers, for the entire thread would lead you to believe we were still talking about TMs.

Are you suggesting that Resonance Trodes drags the subject to the resonance realms?

Possibly, but unlikely. It's the TM's perception of the Matrix that the target becomes subjected to. Perhaps that itself is caused by taking the target to a resonance realm where such laws are in place?

[CanRay]

The resonance realms called. They say you're full of it.

They also ordered a Chicago Deep Dish All-Meat Soyza, a twelve pack of Mountain Dew, and the destruction of every CommLink in existence in exchange for Cyberdecks.

...

I think Bull hacked the Resonance Realms!

[Yerameyahu]

Well, you thought wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I thought I was talking about the matrix every time I mentioned the matrix; technomancers are basically just weird hackers. The resonance realms (and bionode immunities) are indeed an exception to that.

I agree. The most coherent and simple way to model "the TM's perception of the Matrix that the target becomes subjected to" is that, like trodes, the techno is sending simsense. If this simple task requires the mundane subject be somehow granted a living persona, I would still expect there to be some pretty clear rules about that. It also has a side effect: if their mind (in the form of a living persona) is no longer in their body, the subject should also go comatose (right?). This makes the power significantly stronger (basically, paralyzing touch), but it also is the kind of detail you'd expect the rules to mention.

[almost normal]

The rules already mentioned it. It's in the appropriate VR section.

[Yerameyahu]

Specifically? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Like I said, my understanding is that VR (which term I'm not sure even includes resonance realms?) does not involve leaving the body, nor going comatose (which is why there's the RAS Override question in the first place).

Don't forget about how the subject has to become temporarily Emergent, or by some other means enter a Resonance-only place.

[almost normal]

Huh? You keep injecting that last part and expect me to defend against it like its my point. Total strawman fallacy.

[snowRaven]

I wish we had rep scores. Your precise, logical, and rules-backed argument has clearly won here. Well done.

Heh...I wouldn't say I 'won' in any way besides proving that it used to be RAW that astral and physical damage shared one track. I don't think we can claim that separate tracks is RAW in any way, actually - but they might be RAI as of SR4. I don't think so, but I can certainly see where Irion comes from on that. But thank you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

But that's why we like you, CanRay! That, and the sweet bitterness.

...and the fact that he's Canadian. Don't forget that part. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Not at all, almost normal. Your position is that the 'mind is dragged into VR' (right?), so you have to support that. The rules give no explanation for what either 'mind' as a separable object WRT the matrix is, or where is 'VR'; so I've been asking you.

You suggested that resonance realms were an example of the living persona being separable; I agree, but I think it's the only one, and an extremely special case. The rules support this:

Breaking through the Event Horizon brings about major changes to the Living Persona and the technomancer’s Matrix connection. There is no recognizable data trail between the technomancer and the resonance realm, and the technomancer’s body remains in a vegetative state, unable to interact with his environment, as long as he is in contact with the resonance realm.

In addition:

Non-technomancers may only access the resonance realms via a resonance rift (p. 172) or with the help of a free sprite (p. 157).

So, I'm asking how you can get the mundane's (non-techno) mind out of their body, and where it goes. If the suggestion is it's via the sole example of non-magical mind-body separation (resonance realms), then the rules seem to say no.

If not this, then you still have to give something else. From the very first, this is the problem I described: we don't know the nature of the dragged mind, its stats, etc., nor do we know where it's going. Bionodes are off-limits to anything non-Emergent, so that's why I gave (as one suggestion) that some kind of shared or temporary Emergence would have to take place.

The 'it's just trodes to send simsense one-way' solution is so much simpler, avoids the paralyzing touch, more directly matches the rest of the Resonance Trodes rules (which repeatedly say 'functions as trodes to send simsense'), and importantly avoids this whole unspecified-in-the-rules issue. It also has nothing to do with mages, which I guess is a major flaw? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[snowRaven]

@snowRaven
First of all I think heal is a mana based spell. (But I have to check the books)
Second of all, of course can astral based damage be healed by first aid, if you find a way.
Thats why I am against OPENING such a way...

If a damage track is shared between body and astral form, you might just heal or stabalize the body. (Heal would be unable ot heal drain damage per RAW, thats why you have to use first aid!)

What you say has just no bases in RAW. You are jumping from one houserule to the next to get around the partially horrible implications of the previous houserule.

Since the attributes are replaced it would be based on willpowe either way. One other point, why your interpretation is in conflict with RAW.

Well, how about like said in the rules?
You zoom out, both parts keep the damage already done. (RAW)
If merge again I would add any additional damage together, because no damage was healed/should be lost or duplicated.
So there is no "mess". If you bring a messed up mind in a messed up body you are in for acardiac arrest.
But in the love of good: How often does this happen? And how often can I afford drones healing up my body....

Being able to use First Aid on the astral plane is out, I'd say. Heal is a mana spell nowadays, though - I stand corrected (I was in a real hurry when I wrote that previous post - sorry about all the chaos there). So even with two tracks, all you need is a Spirit of Man with Heal to tag along and play 'WoW-priest' on the astral.

If you base the astral physical damage track on Willpower, you can also end up with the situation where your astral damage is enough to kill your body if you merge - even if the body is undamaged (if you have a low body and high will). Inelegant.

Also - new can of worms with two damage tracks:
- You have 6 boxes of damage, and project. On the astral you use a Heal spell while someone on the physical plane applies First Aid - each side heals 3 boxes of damage, but when the bodies merge they get 6 boxes again?
- You have 6 boxes of damage and project. On the astral you heal 3 boxes. On the physical, someone shoots you and does 4 boxes of damage. In the astral you take 2 boxes of damage in astral combat. How many boxes of damage do you have when you merge, and how many of those could be healed?
- You have 6 boxes of damage and project. A heal spell heals 6 boxes on your astral form. You merge. How much damage do you have? Can it be treated with first aid?
- You have 5 boxes of stun. You project. Your body is comatose and should heal stun damage because it's resting - can you add Willpower to that roll (or even make it?) Assuming you can make it, you rest away 2 boxes of stun while you are out. Your astral form isn't resting and doesn't heal - how many boxes do you have when you merge?

I find the whole idea of introducing a separate astral track to be quite inelegant since it has no precedence in any pre-existing rule, creates a situation where a being may take nearly twice as much damage as before and still live (only in very rare situations, I know), is the exact opposite of how it worked in previous editions, and opens a can of tangled worms when you can apply healing separately to the same pre-existing damage on different forms...

Oh, another interesting situation, kind of related to the partially de-railed original thread: If you rule that the astral and physical bodies are so separate as to have different tracks, what happens if you hit the body with a manabolt? Can it still resist with Willpower even though the mind is 'out', or does it become immune?

I think we can all (?) agree on a few RAW-supported statements though:
- Damage modifiers won't cross from physical to astral unless the damage existed prior to projection.
- The astral body can die while the physical lives on, and vice versa.
- Both forms react when either is damaged.

The only question is how much house ruling should be done to try and merge those statements with the rules.
- One track, full modifers for both, yet only one form at a time can die. (contradicts one RAW statement, and not especially pretty)
- Two tracks, separate modifiers; whenever the forms merge so does the damage. (house rule, but possibly RAI; new mechanic)
- One track, but separate modifiers, yet only one form at a time can die. (house rule, but possibly RAI; variant of existing mechanic)

All versions create their own problems, none of them is strictly RAW, and all have their own unique brand of abuse.

[Irion]

Are we back to this topic again?
The point is there is no use jumping from RAI to RAW and back. It only will lead to confusion.

I guess it is time for a rule quote...

The technomancer gains the ability to use his touch as trodes
for another person to provide simsense signals or even share his perception
of the Matrix. If used against the receiver’s will (for instance,
to drag a person’s mind into hot VR and nuke it with Black IC),
it requires a touch-based unarmed attack to apply the trodes, and
maintaining the grip may require a successful subduing attack (p.
152, SR4). If resisted, the technomancer must also beat their victim
in an Opposed Test, pitting Resonance + Willpower against the target’s
Intuition + Willpower. If successful, the technomancer’s touch
act as trodes until he stops or physical contact is broken.

I mean your hands work as trodes. What so hard not to get there? What happens if you apply trodes to a brain without a mind. Well, I do not know. But I suspect it is what Yerameyahu suggested.
An NO, hot VR is not a place. The MIND stays in the brain of the affected guy. It is only as if he would have hot VR active.

@snowRaven

- You have 6 boxes of damage, and project. On the astral you use a Heal spell while someone on the physical plane applies First Aid - each side heals 3 boxes of damage, but when the bodies merge they get 6 boxes again?

No, 3 as I wrote before. The injury you brought along + new once. If the one you brought along is healed on both sides, it is healed.

- You have 6 boxes of damage and project. On the astral you heal 3 boxes. On the physical, someone shoots you and does 4 boxes of damage. In the astral you take 2 boxes of damage in astral combat. How many boxes of damage do you have when you merge, and how many of those could be healed?

10.

- You have 6 boxes of damage and project. A heal spell heals 6 boxes on your astral form. You merge. How much damage do you have? Can it be treated with first aid?

First of all I would be very carfull with the healspell on the astral plane, for it tells to only heal physical injuries. (Thats why healing the body is so great!)
6 and Yes.

- You have 5 boxes of stun. You project. Your body is comatose and should heal stun damage because it's resting - can you add Willpower to that roll (or even make it?) Assuming you can make it, you rest away 2 boxes of stun while you are out. Your astral form isn't resting and doesn't heal - how many boxes do you have when you merge?

Interesting Point. Yes I assume you can rest. The astral form could not. And again 5. (And no, you could not add Willpower)

Really none of this situation was hard to solve.
A:Damage when seperated
B:Damage of Astral Form (time of merge)
C:Damage of Body (time of merge)
D:Damage after merge

D=A+max{(B-A),0}+max{(C-A),0}

If you rule that the astral and physical bodies are so separate as to have different tracks, what happens if you hit the body with a manabolt? Can it still resist with Willpower even though the mind is 'out', or does it become immune?

No it can't resist. It would not be immune, since it still lives. (Would be unaware of attack anyway)

[snowRaven]

I mean your hands work as trodes. What so hard not to get there? What happens if you apply trodes to a brain without a mind. Well, I do not know. But I suspect it is what Yerameyahu suggested.
An NO, hot VR is not a place. The MIND stays in the brain of the affected guy. It is only as if he would have hot VR active.

Yup.

Likely, the only effect of connecting the mage to Hot VR while he is out is that he's going to get a suprise when he comes back to his body...

[almost normal]

An NO, hot VR is not a place.

Wrong. Completely wrong. The RAW clearly states there is.

[Yerameyahu]

Where?

[snowRaven]

Wrong. Completely wrong. The RAW clearly states there is.

Ummm...could you quote where you find that?

Afaik, hot VR is still just "you experience the electronic simulation of the Matrix as your persona's icon" becaues your senses are overridden. Barring Resonance realms at least, your mind doesn't 'go' anywhere.

[Irion]

@almost normal
I am under the impression you just want one trick to work badly.

I somehow dislike the idea, because it would basicly mean you can drag anything in VR. Would be a great way to get rid of free spirits...
Still, it would just be wrong, since they do not even have brains...

[snowRaven]

@almost normal
I am under the impression you just want one trick to work badly.

I somehow dislike the idea, because it would basicly mean you can drag anything in VR. Would be a great way to get rid of free spirits...
Still, it would just be wrong, since they do not even have brains...

Yeah, no trodes on spirits.