If a TM using this power hits a mage who's currently astrally projecting, what happens?

The valid options seem to be (And by all means, add others if they dont fit)

1. Nothing. The power doesn't work because the mind isn't there.
2. The Mage is snapped back into reality and fights against the TM in the Matrix
3. The TM has free reign to nuke the defenseless mage.

Interesting idea.

I'd vote for option 3, sort of like if a shedim finds the body of a currently astral mage. There is no mind (defenses) there, so the TM is free to do whatever damage they like. Tabula rasa.

I'd go for number 3 as well.


Or, she could just shoot the defenseless mage. Of course, that would be less personal fun.

Well, if #3 is what would happen, then yeah, shooting the mage, or plonking the mage's head with a nearby object would do, but if it forces the mage to snap back out of astral, that's got loads of interesting consequences attached.

I still say that no one knows how Resonance Trodes works (/what it does). What does 'drag their mind into VR' even mean? Are they inside the TM's node (i.e., a separate persona running on it, like a nexus)? If so, how is that possible, what stats do they have, etc.?

I think it's the Resonance version of Shade ("force the taker to astrally project").

The way I would work this is that the Resonance Trodes is giving the Person temporary access to Resonance and that their Stats should be built as one would a Living Persona.
With a limit on the Stats equal to the Resonance of the Technomancer using Resonance Trodes. They would also be within that persons Bionode and not the Bionode of the Technomancer.
So Response = Intuition +1, Firewall = Willpower, System = Logic, Signal = non-existant (has to use the Technomancers Signal), Biofeedback Filter = Charisma, Initiative = Intuition x2 +1, 3 passes.

Another way to look at it is to think of how regular trodes work. They are connected to a commlink. That commlink has stats, the persona gets it's stats from that commlink.
Resonance Trodes are also linked to something that acts like a commlink. That being the Bionode. The Bionode has stats, via the stats of the Living Persona.
So a person brought into VR via Resonance Trodes should have stats based on the Bionode and Living Persona.

Since the person also has a Resonance of Zero one could also argue that their Stats should be Zero.
Which would mean nuking would be just straight damage, no resistance.

So you'd put that under #3? Or a subset of 3 where the mage snaps back to the body, defenseless?

Yeah, it is kind of tricky. Your second suggestion is what I meant by 'nexus' (mundane uses the bionode as a 'shared' commlink). The problem there is the canonicity of 'sharing' Resonance, and their access to 'programs' and things. The 'temporary techno' method is a distinct concept, and yeah, Resonance 0 is kind of an issue.

For me, I feel like this is basically an attack skill; it's be much simpler to just give it a damage effect.

It does have non-attack uses, as well; for those, it might again be easier to just say 'the techno sends a simsense feed' and/or 'the techno emulates a commlink'.

The sticky bit is the whole 'drags into VR' part. The actual *effects* are pretty okay… except for the OP question.

Well, if they are a non-TM, they have no stats in VR; That is what a comlink is for, after all. At least they can apply their Willpower to soak that Blackhammer Damage. Sucks to be them...

Yes. If that's the case, though, it'd be so much simpler to just say, 'Resonance Trodes allows to you apply black effects directly.'

This is compatible with the first part of the rules: "provide simsense signals or even share his perception of the Matrix". (In this case, provide *dangerous* simsense.)

So, that's my conclusion. Ignore the 'drag into VR' bit entirely, and say that RTrodes does exactly this: send (but not receive!) simsense (chosen by the user, inc. black effects, BTL, or just 'screen sharing') to a willing/unwilling subject.

Incidentally, this solves the OP question, because we know how trodes function on projecting mages, right?

I think that if the mage's mind is not there then what is there to bring into the VR environment?
If your view is that Resonance Trodes allows the Technomancer access to the persons Bionode equivalent, then they end up in an empty room with no persona there to attack.
The only thing they could do is crash the node, and make the mage end up dealing with what is listed in Unwired.


That to me says the mage ends up back in hisor her body once the node is rebooted.

As an attack you do the touch attack. If they succeed in touching, then do the forced connection attack they have listed. If the connection is forced then do either a Black Hammer, Blackout attack with the resistance being zero. Standard Attack program should probably do something to. I wouldn't have a problem in this being unresisted, just look at the number of rolls needed to make this work.

Doing just a touch attack means that contact is broken as soon as the attack is over. If you want it to last then you would need a standard unarmed attack, or better grapple/subdual attack.
Atlhough I would think both bodies would go limp into VR. Having Mesh Reality would make keeping contact easier.

I would go with option one.
The description is your really seperate your soul from your body.

sure, the soul is in the astral - but black hammer kills neurons, and these are still in your head. It would be easier to just shoot the mage though.

ShadowWalker brings up the other point.

You could go total inception on the mage, presumably. Edit up a VR environment that perfectly matches their room and all that. From there, the possibilities are endless.

Using Edit and Reality Filter on a person's Bionode is just nasty!
Although VR still looks virtual and not real.

I'd say it would have the same effect as applying a set of trodes linked to a commlink, only the technomancer is in charge and the subject is just hitching along. It would be using the technomancers brain as a commlink you can't control, basically?

You sure on that buddy?

The problem with ShadowWalker's characterization is that I don't think we have any grounds for assuming a bionode on the part of the *subject*. At most, the techno is pulling the subject into the techno's bionode. So, there's no concept of the subject's 'empty bionode' or 'crashing the subject's bionode' at all.

I'm also not sure there's any game/world reality of 'their mind isn't present' or the correlation between the astral and matrix rules here. Like I said, I thought it was a known situation for trodes on a mage: while projecting, the mage gets zero input from their 'meat' senses. This includes 'natural' senses (sight, hearing, etc., *and* injury) and simsense (whatever form). So, if injury effects affect the projection, then neural damage would too… but the mage wouldn't *feel* it (or see, or hear, or simsense).

@NiL_FisK_Urd
A bullet in the head also kills neurons. Does not force you back from the astral plane. You won't have a body to go back to thought.
But the technomancer will have a very pissed off mage on his ass...

And the techno will be 100% immune to anything the mage does.

Except the OP spirits the mage can summon.

If I were that TM, I'd take the first flight to space and wait that bitch out.

Yup yup.

Why? Why would the projecting mage even have any idea who just screwed him over into death?
His body just.... Dies...

Psychometry. Spirits. pre-run Divining. Witnesses. Cpovering himself in astrally luminescent invisible paint before going out.

Take your pick

In the very few hours he actually has left? Not likely.

Hard to psychometry a body you cannot find, don't you think?

What do you expect a Spirit to tell you, especially one that may or may not have actually been there? Not like spirits go around assensing everyone that they see for their signature, and many spirits will likely have an issue gaining the requisite number of successes to actually pick up a signature anyways.

Pre-Run Divining will like as not not give you ANY information, bnecause you have yet to be killed, and you likely would never thgouht to have asked that particular question in the forst place.

Hard to find Witnesses, especially when you are an Astral Ghost...

Pah. It should be the first question any self-respecting runner asks before a run

I thought the first question was "At what point in the run will the Johnson screw us?"

Well, you know when your body dies/is attacked, and at that point you should hurry back. Now just kill the creep touching your dead body...

Hehe. Focus, gentlemen.

I feel like we have a principled consensus of the following points:
1. ResTrodes act just like normal trodes, and they allow the techno complete control to *send-only* arbitrary simsense to the subject (blackhammer, AR/VR info, 'everything I see', etc.); no 'drag into VR' or 'temporary Resonance-user' effects, nor even 'guest bionode user status'.
2. Projecting mages are not affected by meat sensory information, including simsense.
3. Projecting mages are affected by damage (right?) to their body, even though they don't feel it; this *doesn't* mean they're pulled back/etc.

This creates a simple and coherent, balanced effect. So. This corresponds roughly to OP's option #3, though a knife or gun might often be easier.

Indeed. I would always opt for the Gun in this circumstance. "That Resonance Trode thing is just wierd. Damned Technomancers out to be shot."

@Yerameyahu
Can only speak for myself, but I agree too.

Anyhow, I would have loved if their would be but more effort in explaining how existing stuff works than in bringing in new stuff in the books.
Espacially the area Cyberware+Astral space(Or in general attributes and Astral space), differances in physical and manaspells and several aspects of BC (astral hazing description Vs normal BC, adding BCs, generating BC, Types of BC and aspecting BC(Which can be aspected, which can't), dropping rates of natural BC..)

I would also add that should the projecting mage return and reenter his body while under the effects of the Resonance Trode that it would immediate get the roll to resist like most characters get.

Well, I know what my Technomancer is getting in a couple of Submersions. : )

But this would work against anyone, wouldn't it? I mean, the only person who would be able to fight back after being forced into the Matrix this way would be another Technomancer or an Emerged animal.

Right, RdMarquis, which is why it's better to avoid calling it 'forced into the Matrix' (or 'dragged into VR'). IMO. It seems more useful to just say the techno is bombarding the subject with simsense (equivalent to a FlashPack, loud noise, etc.), or (in the case of a willing subject) 'sharing' simsense.

Their 'mind' doesn't go anywhere (which is the same as normal VR; matrix is not like projection), they just have new (possibly quite bad) sensory input. The techno can equally use this for 'touch telepathy' (one-way), etc.

You raise another good point: if a techno uses this on another Resonance entity, I assume it functions only to create a direct bionode-bionode connection. The relevant analogy, to me, is that it's the same as connecting a cable from my commlink to yours: a direct wired link is now available, for hacking/whatever. Anyone lacking a bionode (non-Resonance people) lack that defense, so the Trodes feed simsense straight to their brain.

Uhh, what? There is no consensus about the point you tacked onto #1, especially since the power *specifically* says that you drag the target into VR.

If you want to do something else for your homegame, have a blast, but the wording leaves no ambiguity. You drag the target into VR.

Having given it some further thought, I feel that the the mage would in fact be forced back into his body, the mind performing some sort of hard reset to snap the astral being back. If magic is hard to understand and define, then Technomancy is an obfuscated cloud of possibilities.

One of the main backing points this has going for it, is the reverse situation. If a mage forced a full VR TM to astrally project, it isnt as if the TM's soul isn't there because he's out in the Matrix.

As much as I think some fanboys would love it, I doubt the intention of these powers is to say "Mages are just better!" as feet are stomped. They're equal, and would have equal effects, regardless of how we currently interpret things.

Yes, it specifically says something that has no meaning. That's what this whole discussion is about. The rest of the rules block makes perfect sense, so it's easy to regard that one phrase as fluff nonsense.

There is definitely no reason that "the mage would in fact be forced back into his body", unless you can suggest one based on the rules? Given that, say, beheading wouldn't drag them back…

Astral and matrix are totally different. Forced projection *does* pull your consciousness out of your body. VR in no way does. There is no such thing as 'dragged into VR', because VR isn't somewhere you 'go'. In VR, you can still interact with your meat senses and do meat body actions (-6 for the *distraction* of the simsense input).

This is not at all about 'mages are better', but neither are these things *equal*. In fact, the only relevant distinction for Resonance Trodes, I think, it Resonance or non-Resonance. Mundanes and Awakened all behave one way (i.e., mages are not special or better), while it makes sense for Resonance entities to get the simple 'hard-wired connection' effect.

So. There's no such thing as 'drag a mind into hot VR'; what the rules describe is 'bombard their brain *with* hot VR'.

I still think its hilarious to flip the your team mage's body over so when he returns from projecting, he's momentarily all discombobulated from facing the wrong direction.



Also, drawing with permanent marker on the dude while he's out.

The meanest thing I remember from a home game was the street sam punching the projecting mage a few times in the butt and dropping a used condom into his pants. Fortunately the mage's player was a good sport about it, and did eventually get the sam back with a stunt involving a troll hooker.



-k

Again, if you want to ignore obvious rules text because you don't want to believe it has any meaning, go for it. The simple fact of the matter is that it isn't fluff, any more then the rules for astral projection are fluff. It's a rule. It's printed. Deal with it.



Ignoring your hyperbole, a suggested reason is the rule itself. It forces the targets mind into VR. Since Astral is an entirely mental process, having your mind yanked into another plane of existence is likely to have an effect.

Unless of course, you're suggesting that you rip the targets mind into VR, while another seperate yet equal mind continues flowing around in astral? The onus is on you to find that particular interpretation's support in the rules.





You say one thing, the rules say the complete opposite. I'll stick with the rules, thanks.

...

That's just cruel.

If you go RAW, the mage would not be a valid target to begin with. It would simply fail. Sorry, no mind here...
It would not work an a carrot, so why would it work on the mage's body?

But I agree with Yerameyahu that it (from a logical perspective) still does damage to the poor brain, the mage has left behind.


The point is, you fail to touch the mage, to begin with. He is NOT in his body. He is (well, we do not know and probably do not want to know) somewhere else.

Please display this written rule.

Again, almost normal, that phrase has no *meaning* in the SR4 rules. That's the whole problem, from the very beginning. There is no such thing as 'drag a mind into VR'; there is no such place as 'VR' and there is no such thing as 'a mind'. Neither the hacker not the technomancer 'sends his mind' anywhere; they connect to nodes via their persona, and their mind stays in their brain. We know this is the case, with one bit of evidence being the RAS Override rules.

The closest thing is the consciousness that goes astral projecting, but astral and matrix are utterly different and separate. There certainly is no single mind that goes from astral to VR, as you suggest. Don't even pretend that your position is rules based.

I admitted from the very start that you have to assume that single phrase out of the whole rules block is, at best, figurative. I can't see any way to give it literal meaning within SR4, which I've already discussed at length (starting with my first post). Ignoring it (as figurative), everything else makes sense, both internally and with respect to the rest of the SR4 rules as we understand them.

For your position, you have to posit that this power creates a matrix-based mental transfer (that exists nowhere else), and interacts with magic in a way that we know doesn't work (mage/resonance don't play nice) to affect an *astral* projection not present in the body/brain (you can kill the body without affecting the astral projection). As if that weren't enough, you then have to invent rules out of whole cloth to let the subject enter the bionode (otherwise impossible), share the techno's powers, and/or be a temporarily Emergent being (which is definitely incompatible with magic).

Even if you could do any of that, you just end up with a vastly more complex system to accomplish 2 things: deal neural damage (blackhammer, etc.), or share sensory info. Even ignoring all the rules mess, it's just simpler to say 'the techno can send hot VR simsense'.

Where are you getting all this from?

Seriously, your argument holds no water. You're suggesting that since this power isn't mirrored elsewhere, it should be ignored? So the Adept power that allows you to punch folks from a distance, that should be ignored?

If the book says there's a way to drag someone into VR, and this power does it, then guess what? THIS POWER DOES IT.

To argue otherwise for anything then a homebrew game in which you ignore sections of canonical material is stupidity.

Not at all. The problem is that all of this novel content has to be *inferred* from a single phrase (one which isn't even consistent with the rest of the rules block; everything else says 'act as trodes', but trodes don't and can't 'drag minds'). If it actually described the whole concept of 'there is a mind-object and this power does X to it and moves it to Y place', that would be fine. It doesn't do any of that, though.

So. Where are *you* getting this 'snap back from astral' stuff from? If killing their body can't do it, and meat sensory input can't do it, where does this novel (and, again, useless) power come from? Etc. I think I've clearly outlined many of the problems, so if you can address them in ways that are internally and externally consistent and rules-based, I'd be happy to read that.

There is no inference. There is stated fact. There is no ambiguity. It says it can be done, it can be done. This is the last time I'm going to repeat myself on that issue. You're in the wrong here.

I will admit that the snapping back of astral is supposition, if only because it's the only part of the subject that is ambiguous. My understanding comes from balance of the astral rules. If you don't wish to accept that, that's fine, it's pure supposition. That the power rips a mind into VR, and that astral powers are based off the mind, is not supposition, as much as you might claim otherwise.

The problem is, when you experience VR, your mind doesn't "go" anywhere. You get sensory data delivered TO your mind, your mind doesn't actually go into the Matrix.

This has been a constant across four editions of Shadowrun.




-k

Oops, double post.

The more I think about it, the more I think that there is no real effect. As Irion pointed out earlier, the mage's consciousness is out and therefore not being touched. The damage done via things like blackout is thru simsense overload, but there are no senses to overload on a mages body while they are projecting.

Can you affect a body that is brain dead thru trauma? The body of a projecting mage is no different than that.

I would say that a TM could touch the body and have it sort of setup so that when the mage returns he is instantly forced to make the resistance roll. Given the circumstance I may even give the tm a bonus, or the mage a penalty to the roll.

You can repeat yourself all you want, almost normal, and in whatever hyperbolically stark terms you like. That's not argument, and you haven't supported anything you've presented.

If the distance strike adept power just said, 'he can hit people from far away', we'd have no reason to assume that meant his arms stretch out like Mr. Fantastic. Luckily, that power (and basically everything else in the game that introduces something new) explains how it works. The one phrase 'drag his mind into VR' doesn't.

--
Caadium, I'm not sure that's the case. AFAIK, you *could* do brain damage to a comatose patient through something like blackhammer (basically, dangerous *levels* of neural input). It's not like your senses or neurons are 'gone', there's just no one listening. The projecting mage is comatose (right?), not dead (nor brain-dead), and his consciousness has magically wandered away. It seems to me that if you can damage his body (you can), then you can damage his neurons. I do agree that non-damaging simsense (delivered by this power or real trodes) has no effect, because the projecting mage has no access to sensory information of any kind (from his body).