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snowRaven
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Mar 7 2012, 11:47 PM) *
Take this example: a Mage (witz 0 edge left) will be killed in the nex turn, he has an active pain editor, a full stun track and one box left on his physical track - if he gos astral, he will (probably) be alive for another few hours, and can wreak havoc with spirits or warn others. If he suffrs zero wound modifiers, this will seriously change his abilities to do things.


Nope. The astral form has any wounds that were present before the mage goes astral (SR4 is clear on that; pg. 193 Astral Forms), so he'd retain all those modifers.


QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 7 2012, 11:50 PM) *
So, our two choices seem to be: (crippled astral form), or (separate astral condition monitor without damage sharing). I'm throwing snowRaven's solution under the latter, though it's a little different. Yes?


I'd say mine is a third choice, and more than a little different - the consequences of two separate tracks is much more convoluted, with damage merging when you get back to your body and 6 boxes on each side suddenly killing the poor body 2 mage, but if he stays astral he can arrange for someone to heal him (a summoned spirit of man with Innate Spell (Heal) for instance) and avoid death. Well, it's that or having astral damage magically disappear when you go back - a big no-no, imo. Such things won't work under my 'same track - separate penalties' solution.

Once you fill up on physical, you die in one form but stick around in the other.
Once you merge with your body, you get all your penalties.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Mar 7 2012, 03:16 PM) *
*shrug* the original scenario was a TM, right? I'm having trouble seeing how they'd go about slipping around an Alarm Ward. A mage could do it, but probably not while also remaining unseen by any spirits working for the target mage. I mean, every Mage I've seen in play makes use of Watcher Spirits, at the very least...if they were going Astral, it follows that they'd make better preparations than that.


I'm just saying, kidnapping a mage's body doesn't seem nearly as cost/time-effective as simply killing the body.


An Alarm Ward ONLY is only affected by a Magically Active presence. Mundanes Can IGNORE THEM COMPLETELY.
EDIT: Ooops, Someone already caught that. Sorry. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
I see, snowRaven. Still, it's nearly as bad as a separate track in terms of complexity; you do have to tell the difference between both kinds, etc. Messy. :/

Can you run me through it again? So Mage goes astral with 3 boxes of Stun already on him; his astral form has those 3 boxes, and their concomitant -1 Wound Penalty. Now, he takes 3 more on the astral (6 boxes of Stun, total -2 Wound Penalty?). Then, his body gets smacked for another 3 Stun. So, he now has 9 boxes of Stun, but no extra wound penalties? If he takes one more box in either plane (assume 10, I guess), he'll have a full stun track and his astral form will be KOd, jumping straight from -2 Wound Penalty straight to KO? (And ask, hmm, I wonder why I'm KO even though I only have 7 boxes?) But if he returned to his body, he'd suddenly have the full -3? Unless he has a pain editor, in which case he'll still have 9 boxes but no wound penalty.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 8 2012, 01:05 AM) *
I see, snowRaven. Still, it's nearly as bad as a separate track in terms of complexity; you do have to tell the difference between both kinds, etc. Messy. :/

Can you run me through it again? So Mage goes astral with 3 boxes of Stun already on him; his astral form has those 3 boxes, and their concomitant -1 Wound Penalty. Now, he takes 3 more on the astral (6 boxes of Stun, total -2 Wound Penalty?). Then, his body gets smacked for another 3 Stun. So, he now has 9 boxes of Stun, but no extra wound penalties? If he takes one more box in either plane (assume 10, I guess), he'll have a full stun track and his astral form will be KOd, jumping straight from -2 Wound Penalty straight to KO? (And ask, hmm, I wonder why I'm KO even though I only have 7 boxes?) But if he returned to his body, he'd suddenly have the full -3? Unless he has a pain editor, in which case he'll still have 9 boxes but no wound penalty.


Not much messier than having damage compensators (or even high pain tolerance) really. Once the mage is KO'd he can't ask himself silly questions as 'why' anyhow grinbig.gif

If he goes back to his body, he will suddenly be flooded with very real pain which only a moment ago just felt like a whisper: 'Pain rushes through you as your mind reconnects with your body, making you gasp for air - and the resulting cough brings a taste of blood to your mouth. "Welcome back, wizboy" a deep voice says, and as you open your eyes you see a very big smiling troll raise his fist for what you can only assume is his second punch to your gut...'

If I know the PC will get knocked out by the attack, I usually don't inform them of exactly how much damage they took anyway. They don't know, and unless there's a friend nearby who can see more or less how damaged he is (I'll describe the situation as: 'Carver gets hit in the face, goes down, and his nose is gushing blood' or 'Carver gets hit in the face, you can hear a sickening 'snap' and his body goes limp. As the Troll turns your way you notice that Carver's head is in a very unnatural position.' - or whatever else is suitable for the damage...)

Players are much more keen on trying to get to a downed comrade if they are unsure of if he has 9 or 3 or 0 turns to live... vegm.gif
Yerameyahu
Makes sense. Was my characterization consistent with your concept?

In that case, we *do* have to abandon the idea that wounds are shared across the planes, but we're saying boxes still are. Okay. This honestly works better for my 'no real sensory info from the meat body' point. smile.gif This also basically chooses the 'crippled/KOd astral mage' option, which is fine.

I thought you said, though, that dying in the meat *wouldn't* kill your astral form. … Wouldn't it?
snowRaven
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 8 2012, 01:54 AM) *
I thought you said, though, that dying in the meat *wouldn't* kill your astral form. … Wouldn't it?

It wouldn't, simply because the rules say it won't.

If the body takes the killing blow, the astral form remains, and if the astral form takes the killing blow, the physical body becomes permanently comatose.

The 'mess' here happens when both forms are taking damage, and figuring out what wound modifiers would apply to the body once the astral form dies, and what wound modifiers apply to the astral form once the body dies.

I'd be tempted to say that once the link between the two is severed, the damage that belonged to the other form 'disappears', but RAW contradicts that and it reeks of 'two damage tracks' mentality. So instead, I'd probably say that you are left with whatever boxes weren't filled before the killing blow. Or that the surviving form is indeed 'maxed out' on boxes, but still alive (if it's the physical body, it doesn't matter - even if hooked up on life support he can never hope for anything better than becoming a vessel for a spirit of some sort, so it can be ignored - if it's the astral form...well, he has only a short while to 'live' anyway, so I'm fine with just keeping him at whatever wound penalties he had astrally before the body said goodbye and ruling that he can't take any more damage. He is dead, after all - more a ghost than a metahuman being...)

It's not quite possible to apply damage boxes to both forms up until death, but only have one form die - but RAW tells us that this is the case. So, like I said - no matter how you do it, there's a 'mess' somewhere... =/
Yerameyahu
But if a full meat physical track won't kill you in astral form, why does a full meat stun track KO you in astral form (or, sorry, does it not?)?

Agreed, ideally we'd edit out the mess somewhere (even if it means a small house rule). Hmm.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 8 2012, 02:21 AM) *
But if a full meat physical track won't kill you in astral form, why does a full meat stun track KO you in astral form (or, sorry, does it not?)?

Agreed, ideally we'd edit out the mess somewhere (even if it means a small house rule).


Well, by RAW it would knock you out...nothing is mentioned about that. A full overflow track won't kill you because RAW says so. You should(?) still be knocked out, though - dead in the meat and asleep in the spirit...life sucks.

Personally, I'd want say you won't suddenly fall unconscious in the astral if your meat body is being hammered on though, but that creates the problem of 'when do you fall unconscious' - if it's only when total astral damage fills up the stun track (pr physical track) we're almost back in 'two-track-realm'.

It does have the 'benefit'(?) of letting the body be pounded to ground beef and die with the mage still being conscious on the astral, though.

"If wound modifiers won't stack, then why does he fall unconscious?" is probably the right question to ask here... =/
Yerameyahu
Yeah. That's the same problem again. smile.gif You'd want some consistency and elegance, and a crippled-but-arbitarily-alive astral form is neither. I don't care too much about fixing bad RAW, so don't avoid that on principle (at least, not for my sake). biggrin.gif

Again, we're trying to resolve two desirable(?) concepts: damage sharing, and 'stranded astral form'. If they can't be resolved, alas, let's just rule that stranded astral form doesn't exist. frown.gif It's a much rarer and less important concept, after all. (The other choice, of course, was two-track; I honestly don't hate this option either, but I think people really like damage sharing, and the RAW is pretty insistent.)

If that's our choice, though, it's simpler to just go with full damage/wound sharing.
snowRaven
Doing full sharing and 'forbidding' one form to survive is all well and good.

I kinda like the 'dying astral mage seeking revenge' bit, though - there's a published adventure involving that which I want to run...

I'll probably handle unconsciousness the same as death - form receiving the damage falls unconscious - the other form just keeps pushing up boxes (of course, if the astral goes out the physical form is out no matter what...). That prevents the 'what the...I was undamaged, why did I go out' question, and lets a fully conscious astral mage go back into his body only to pass out when the pain hits him and he goes into shock. I may give him a brief second of awareness just to give him a glimpse of the trouble he's likely in...or at least I'll let him spend edge to invoke the 'dead man's trigger' rule: one simple action, then it's light's out... grinbig.gif


To avoid the mess entirely, just equip every character with maxed-out damage compensators or permanent Sideways infusions. :rolling:

Yerameyahu
Backing up a little bit, how did everyone feel about the question of 'can hot simsense damage the brain of a sleeping/comatose/astral subject?' I assume the answer is the same for stun and physical, because of rollover. I'm happy with either one, but I feel like blackhammer, etc., do direct neural damage, so it shouldn't matter. I feel like more people said 'only conscious people', though (does sleeping count?).
Irion
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Mar 7 2012, 11:02 PM) *
What is wrong with "your overflow box is full but you do not die for X hours" - this neither contradicts the rule in the box nor the general rule for dying - because it is a clearly stated exception.

It would be nice though to show me your made up exceptions concerning astral projection + wound modifiers and the made up astral damage track - because i cannot find it in the books.

If you cannot provide me with actual quotes, i will assume you cannot find any.

Alright, for the thired time:
First off all, it is mentioned nowhere.
Second of all, it is a general statement, so what would happen if the astral form has already taken some damage.
Third point would be, that if the astral form dies, the mage is dead. So there is no (I have overflow and sill can live)

The problem is, you can't just apply modifiers as you see fit. If you want to apply a modifier, there has to be a rule about it.
If you want to fill somebodys condition monitor, it has to be mentioned. In this case it isn't. You start assuming additional rules, which clearly are not in the book. And those additional rules would work only for very few cases. To link two condition monitors is a silly idea to begin with. You just make everything more complicated than it allready is...

@snowRaven
The two sperated independent tracks are the only worrking solution. This ain't some special circumstances rule. This is canon for quite a long time. Going astral seperates the body from the mind. If the body dies you may spend X hours on the astral(as normal). After that your astral form starts resolving, unless you got the inhibitation-power from somewhere...

QUOTE
You should(?) still be knocked out, though - dead in the meat and asleep in the spirit...life sucks.

No, raw states you are active...


Sorry, but if you open hundreds of cans of worms if your ruling would be true, it probably ain't.
(Not to mentionen every bit of fluff points in the other direction too.)

@Yerameyahu
Two seperated damage tracks, are really not that hard to use.
You just need to consult on how making it one is resolved, since they forgot to mention it in RAW. (The problem is, if we would assume it is the same or some sort of combination, they would not need to mention that damage is carried over when astral projecting.
pbangarth
Holy shit. I come back 22 hours after I last popped into this thread, and there are three pages of new posts! I'll just live with missing them, I guess, but...

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where do you guys find the time? frown.gif
snowRaven
QUOTE (Irion @ Mar 8 2012, 08:14 AM) *
@snowRaven
The two sperated independent tracks are the only worrking solution. This ain't some special circumstances rule. This is canon for quite a long time. Going astral seperates the body from the mind. If the body dies you may spend X hours on the astral(as normal). After that your astral form starts resolving, unless you got the inhibitation-power from somewhere...

@Yerameyahu
Two seperated damage tracks, are really not that hard to use.
You just need to consult on how making it one is resolved, since they forgot to mention it in RAW. (The problem is, if we would assume it is the same or some sort of combination, they would not need to mention that damage is carried over when astral projecting.

There's the a much worse can of worms here:

If you have two separate tracks, but all damage taken is carried over to the other - why have two separate tracks? They are always going to be filled equally anyway.

If you are saying that damage isn't carried over - how are you explaining away the part of RAW that clearly states that it is?

2 separate tracks RAW for a long time? I beg to differ...

SR2, pg.147: "A magician's enemies could simply kill the physical body. Almost any wound to the comatose form will drive it into fatal shock. A magician in astral space knows at once if his body dies. The astral form survives until its Essence is used up, at which point it evaportates."
and
"Because of the occult phenomenon of "repercussion," the physical body manifests the damage. That means that if a magician is wounded in astral space, the physical body is wounded at the same moment. If killed, the astral and physical bodies die at the same moment. Healing techniques used on one body also heal the other, whether the healing is magical or mundane."
(SR1 has the above text pretty much identically written on pg. 90-91)

SR3, ppg.173: "You know instantly if it suffers any damage, but you are otherwise unaware of what happens to your body while you're "out"." and "Enemies can also simply kill your body. Your physical form is helpless, and can easily be dealt a Deadly wound. You know at once if your body dies. Your astral form survives until it would have normally used up its Essence, at which point it evaporates."
and pg.176: "The physical body manifests any damage inflicted on the astral form and vice versa. If you are wounded in astral space, the wounds appear on your physical body at the same moment. If your astral form is killed, your physical body dies as well. Fortunately, healing techniques used on one body also heal the other, whether they are magical or mundane.
An astral form suffering Deadly stun damage is disrupted. A disrupted astral form immediately disappears from the astral plane: astrally projecting characters return to their physical bodies (regardless of any barriers separating them), while spirits vanish entirely. The character is unconscious (at Deadly stun damage) and must recover normally"

- In every earlier edition it states that damage applied to the astral form appears on the physical body.
- In two editions, the physical body dies from fatal shock on 'almost any wound'. (nice and vague)
- In one edition, it clearly states that damage applied to the physical body appears on the astral (and vice versa above) and that a comatose body is 'easily dealt a Deadly wound' - which would mean that the astral form also just took a Deadly wound - but from the looks of it still remains conscious (though there is no clarifying text on that anywhere).

Nowhere is it ever suggested that there are two separate tracks, and on no official character sheet has there ever been a separate 'astral damage track'. There's no point in having two tracks since all damage is applied to both forms...
Irion
@snowRaven
QUOTE
If you are saying that damage isn't carried over - how are you explaining away the part of RAW that clearly states that it is?

There ain't a part in RAW. It says the damage affects me. Thats not saying anything on the "HOW" question. The only effect mentioned is, that you would feel a distant pain.
Let me put it like that, getting kicked in the balls does not feel like a distant pain.

Well, fortunatly this direct link was cut!
The abuse potential... I mean honestly: You may have your body taken care of by a drone/or worse task spirit, which heals any kind of damage right away. And thanks to the first aid rules...

This would mean the "I drop a big spirit on your head"-tactic gets even worse. Oh, the force 10 spirit rolled good and I took 6 physical. Wait! Oh, now they are gone!
Yerameyahu
Irion, I agree (… cuz that's what I said smile.gif ). You either have to have separate non-shared tracks (which requires ignoring all the RAW that implies astral/meat damage is shared, and adds the complexity of another track); or you have to ditch the idea that the astral form can live while the body is dead/KO (which, too, has been a RAW concept for a long time). These two options seem totally incompatible, and we'll have to give up *something*. Either sacrifice is fine with me, and I noted that giving up the 'stranded astral mage' is probably the easier option (because how often does a character die?). smile.gif

So. It sounds like Irion chooses 'separate astral damage track'. That's fine, but it requires positively choosing it. NiL expressed some abuse potential, though it didn't seem much to me.
snowRaven
QUOTE (Irion @ Mar 8 2012, 12:39 PM) *
@snowRaven

There ain't a part in RAW. It says the damage affects me. Thats not saying anything on the "HOW" question. The only effect mentioned is, that you would feel a distant pain.
Let me put it like that, getting kicked in the balls does not feel like a distant pain.

Well, fortunatly this direct link was cut!
The abuse potential... I mean honestly: You may have your body taken care of by a drone/or worse task spirit, which heals any kind of damage right away. And thanks to the first aid rules...

This would mean the "I drop a big spirit on your head"-tactic gets even worse. Oh, the force 10 spirit rolled good and I took 6 physical. Wait! Oh, now they are gone!

Well no, any type of healing except regeneration takes time...your 6 physical healed by magic would take 4 combat turns to cast, so if you want to heal it all in a single turn you need 9 successes, and therefore a Force 9 Heal spell. (6 for the DV, 3 for reducing time).

You could have a spirit along that heals your astral form instead...no wait - you can't: Heal is a physical spell...First Aid can certainly not be applied to astral forms...so in fact, if what you say is true Astral damage can't be healed! To heal naturally you have to roll Body+Willpower(1 day). Even if you rule that we use astral body for this, there's no way to heal because you can't be on the astral that long. Stun damage may work.

So, how would you merge tracks? Do you get to heal astral damage once you're back in your body? Does it disappear (ouch, I got hit - zoom, back into body - zoom out - voila!)? Does it add to your physical damage (I mean, does your astral physical damage add to your physical physical damage - and if your body was healed magically, is the extra astral physical a separate set of wounds for purposes of healing? Does sores and internal bleeding magically appear once you enter your body? Or do the tracks remain separate? If so, do they heal separately? See the mess here?

So, since there was not even a hint of it in previous editions - if the authors of SR4 wanted a separate astral damage track...how come they didn't introduce one? Are you suggesting they decided to completely change the rules from earlier editions and then just...didn't bother to actually make any rules that fit what they wanted to change, and didn't bother to include it any reprints, faqs, erratas or supplements?

If they ment for there to be a separate track, shouldn't there have been a mention somewhere of a separate damage track, or damage from different tracks merging, etc. Two tracks for one being would be a completely new concept for SR - the only thing that's ever had separate tracks are matrix personas, and that's been explicitly mentioned.

Plus, if you had separate astral tracks, would the Physical track be based on Physical Body or Astral Body(Willpower)?
Yerameyahu
I thought he was suggesting you could project, leaving your body in the care of First Aid (that's why he said drone/Task spirit) and/or Heal, and then easily have astral damage healed on the physical side (because damage is fully shared). Makes sense, though I'm not sure it's a huge problem.

I think it's clear that separate tracks isn't a RAW position, but that doesn't mean it's not an option. Presumably, it'd be based on Astral 'Body', and yes, all damage would get merged upon merging (come what may), and any 'set of wounds' may be healed once. None of these concerns are insurmountable, but they all require houseruling.

The 'no (functional) astral stranding' option seems more RAW (or, less not-RAW smile.gif ), but it seems to really depend on which you/your group prefers.
Irion
@snowRaven
First of all I think heal is a mana based spell. (But I have to check the books)
Second of all, of course can astral based damage be healed by first aid, if you find a way.
Thats why I am against OPENING such a way...

If a damage track is shared between body and astral form, you might just heal or stabalize the body. (Heal would be unable ot heal drain damage per RAW, thats why you have to use first aid!)

What you say has just no bases in RAW. You are jumping from one houserule to the next to get around the partially horrible implications of the previous houserule.
QUOTE
Plus, if you had separate astral tracks, would the Physical track be based on Physical Body or Astral Body(Willpower)?

Since the attributes are replaced it would be based on willpowe either way. One other point, why your interpretation is in conflict with RAW.

QUOTE
So, how would you merge tracks? Do you get to heal astral damage once you're back in your body? Does it disappear (ouch, I got hit - zoom, back into body - zoom out - voila!)? Does it add to your physical damage (I mean, does your astral physical damage add to your physical physical damage - and if your body was healed magically, is the extra astral physical a separate set of wounds for purposes of healing? Does sores and internal bleeding magically appear once you enter your body? Or do the tracks remain separate? If so, do they heal separately? See the mess here?

Well, how about like said in the rules?
You zoom out, both parts keep the damage already done. (RAW)
If merge again I would add any additional damage together, because no damage was healed/should be lost or duplicated.
So there is no "mess". If you bring a messed up mind in a messed up body you are in for acardiac arrest.
But in the love of good: How often does this happen? And how often can I afford drones healing up my body....

@Yerameyahu
Well, I am always for the seperation of the planes.
(There are some things, you do not even need to think about or know the rules to see that there is huge abuse potential...Ways to get around the seperation of planes is a big one. Possession spirits are a fine example of that. They can attack a physical target (possess it) from the astral plane...)

QUOTE
The 'no (functional) astral stranding' option seems more RAW (or, less not-RAW smile.gif )

Well, I have to disagree. It is contradicting a direct RAW statement. So less RAW is quite impossible...

QUOTE
I thought he was suggesting you could project, leaving your body in the care of First Aid (that's why he said drone/Task spirit) and/or Heal, and then easily have astral damage healed on the physical side (because damage is fully shared). Makes sense, though I'm not sure it's a huge problem.

You thougth correctly. It is a problem, since it makes it possible to heal off drain very fast, beeing astral.
Yerameyahu
There are multiple RAW statements and they disagree, that's the whole point. smile.gif I guess I don't worry too much about what is RAW, just what is right and/or good. biggrin.gif Pick the side you/your table likes.

Because house rules are perfectly fine, you could always say that (within the 'fully shared damage' option) astral damage can't be physically healed. This is an extra complication, but it seems pretty manageable (typically, you're only taking damage from the astral or the physical at a given time). It just depends on what you want. (Personally, I don't think Drain should be healable by First Aid in the first place. nyahnyah.gif )
Irion
@Yerameyahu
QUOTE
(Personally, I don't think Drain should be healable by First Aid in the first place. nyahnyah.gif )

Who would I be to disagree...
Yerameyahu
You'd be dirty mage-lover! biggrin.gif
Irion
Can't argue with that.
But you have to admit, the rulebook seems to be a dirty mage-lover.
almost normal
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Mar 8 2012, 07:12 AM) *
...


I wish we had rep scores. Your precise, logical, and rules-backed argument has clearly won here. Well done.
Irion
@almost normal
And you were able to quote ... as prove to that.
Yerameyahu
Hey, everyone contributes to the discussion in their own way, Irion. wink.gif
almost normal
Yep. Some people do it by reading through several pages of information and finding some true gems and pointing them out.

Others do it by pretending to form a consensus and ignoring several instances of printed text that contradicts them. smile.gif

Yerameyahu
If there are any points you'd like to revisit, I'm happy to tear them up again. It's better to ignore the single phrase that doesn't fit, than the entire matrix and magic systems.
CanRay
QUOTE (almost normal @ Mar 8 2012, 02:21 PM) *
Yep. Some people do it by reading through several pages of information and finding some true gems and pointing them out.

Others do it by pretending to form a consensus and ignoring several instances of printed text that contradicts them. smile.gif
And some just make smart ass remarks. nyahnyah.gif
Yerameyahu
But that's why we like you, CanRay! That, and the sweet bitterness.
almost normal
The problem lies with trying to smash preconceived notions of how things should work into the rule which says how things do work.

There's a very strong argument that a Technomancer's persona is the modern version of the magician's astral-form. It seems odd that someone could so readily accept the "reality" of an astral projection being created, but then they try to claim a matrix persona being created "doesn't fit."

Seems obvious that there's an agenda clouding reality.
Yerameyahu
I don't see that the living persona (nor the normal persona, which it's supposed to mirror) is analogous to an astral form. Personas don't leave the body, and there's nowhere for them to go. The matrix is made of connections. On the other side, there are extensive rules about the astral form being separate from the body.

I can't imagine that this is personal for anyone, that anyone has 'an agenda'. Certainly not a 'pro-mage' one. smile.gif Everyone hates mages, and this interaction barely seems relevant to mage power in the first place. The odds of a technomancer using Resonance Trodes on a projecting mage are so remote.
almost normal
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 8 2012, 01:40 PM) *
Personas don't leave the body, and there's nowhere for them to go.


The resonance realms called. They say you're full of it.
Yerameyahu
That's quite a special case. Yes, you're right there; sorry. smile.gif I thought, though, that we were talking about the matrix.

Are you suggesting that Resonance Trodes drags the subject to the resonance realms? If so, we're back to the problem that the rules give zero guidance about how that works (do they share the techno's resonance, do they become temporarily Emergent, etc.). Things that the equivalent astral/magic effects describe in detail.
almost normal
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 8 2012, 01:50 PM) *
That's quite a special case. Yes, you're right there; sorry. smile.gif I thought, though, that we were talking about the matrix.


Sorry for the confusion. I thought by referencing only technomancers, as opposed to hackers, for the entire thread would lead you to believe we were still talking about TMs.

QUOTE
Are you suggesting that Resonance Trodes drags the subject to the resonance realms?


Possibly, but unlikely. It's the TM's perception of the Matrix that the target becomes subjected to. Perhaps that itself is caused by taking the target to a resonance realm where such laws are in place?

CanRay
QUOTE (almost normal @ Mar 8 2012, 02:47 PM) *
The resonance realms called. They say you're full of it.
They also ordered a Chicago Deep Dish All-Meat Soyza, a twelve pack of Mountain Dew, and the destruction of every CommLink in existence in exchange for Cyberdecks.

...

I think Bull hacked the Resonance Realms!
Yerameyahu
Well, you thought wrong. smile.gif I thought I was talking about the matrix every time I mentioned the matrix; technomancers are basically just weird hackers. The resonance realms (and bionode immunities) are indeed an exception to that.

I agree. The most coherent and simple way to model "the TM's perception of the Matrix that the target becomes subjected to" is that, like trodes, the techno is sending simsense. If this simple task requires the mundane subject be somehow granted a living persona, I would still expect there to be some pretty clear rules about that. It also has a side effect: if their mind (in the form of a living persona) is no longer in their body, the subject should also go comatose (right?). This makes the power significantly stronger (basically, paralyzing touch), but it also is the kind of detail you'd expect the rules to mention.
almost normal
The rules already mentioned it. It's in the appropriate VR section.
Yerameyahu
Specifically? smile.gif Like I said, my understanding is that VR (which term I'm not sure even includes resonance realms?) does not involve leaving the body, nor going comatose (which is why there's the RAS Override question in the first place).

Don't forget about how the subject has to become temporarily Emergent, or by some other means enter a Resonance-only place.
almost normal
Huh? You keep injecting that last part and expect me to defend against it like its my point. Total strawman fallacy.
snowRaven
QUOTE (almost normal @ Mar 8 2012, 04:41 PM) *
I wish we had rep scores. Your precise, logical, and rules-backed argument has clearly won here. Well done.


Heh...I wouldn't say I 'won' in any way besides proving that it used to be RAW that astral and physical damage shared one track. I don't think we can claim that separate tracks is RAW in any way, actually - but they might be RAI as of SR4. I don't think so, but I can certainly see where Irion comes from on that. But thank you smile.gif

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 8 2012, 07:32 PM) *
But that's why we like you, CanRay! That, and the sweet bitterness.


...and the fact that he's Canadian. Don't forget that part. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
Not at all, almost normal. Your position is that the 'mind is dragged into VR' (right?), so you have to support that. The rules give no explanation for what either 'mind' as a separable object WRT the matrix is, or where is 'VR'; so I've been asking you.

You suggested that resonance realms were an example of the living persona being separable; I agree, but I think it's the only one, and an extremely special case. The rules support this:
QUOTE
Breaking through the Event Horizon brings about major changes to the Living Persona and the technomancer’s Matrix connection. There is no recognizable data trail between the technomancer and the resonance realm, and the technomancer’s body remains in a vegetative state, unable to interact with his environment, as long as he is in contact with the resonance realm.
In addition:
QUOTE
Non-technomancers may only access the resonance realms via a resonance rift (p. 172) or with the help of a free sprite (p. 157).
So, I'm asking how you can get the mundane's (non-techno) mind out of their body, and where it goes. If the suggestion is it's via the sole example of non-magical mind-body separation (resonance realms), then the rules seem to say no.

If not this, then you still have to give something else. From the very first, this is the problem I described: we don't know the nature of the dragged mind, its stats, etc., nor do we know where it's going. Bionodes are off-limits to anything non-Emergent, so that's why I gave (as one suggestion) that some kind of shared or temporary Emergence would have to take place.

The 'it's just trodes to send simsense one-way' solution is so much simpler, avoids the paralyzing touch, more directly matches the rest of the Resonance Trodes rules (which repeatedly say 'functions as trodes to send simsense'), and importantly avoids this whole unspecified-in-the-rules issue. It also has nothing to do with mages, which I guess is a major flaw? smile.gif
snowRaven
QUOTE (Irion @ Mar 8 2012, 01:45 PM) *
@snowRaven
First of all I think heal is a mana based spell. (But I have to check the books)
Second of all, of course can astral based damage be healed by first aid, if you find a way.
Thats why I am against OPENING such a way...

If a damage track is shared between body and astral form, you might just heal or stabalize the body. (Heal would be unable ot heal drain damage per RAW, thats why you have to use first aid!)

What you say has just no bases in RAW. You are jumping from one houserule to the next to get around the partially horrible implications of the previous houserule.

Since the attributes are replaced it would be based on willpowe either way. One other point, why your interpretation is in conflict with RAW.

Well, how about like said in the rules?
You zoom out, both parts keep the damage already done. (RAW)
If merge again I would add any additional damage together, because no damage was healed/should be lost or duplicated.
So there is no "mess". If you bring a messed up mind in a messed up body you are in for acardiac arrest.
But in the love of good: How often does this happen? And how often can I afford drones healing up my body....


Being able to use First Aid on the astral plane is out, I'd say. Heal is a mana spell nowadays, though - I stand corrected (I was in a real hurry when I wrote that previous post - sorry about all the chaos there). So even with two tracks, all you need is a Spirit of Man with Heal to tag along and play 'WoW-priest' on the astral.

If you base the astral physical damage track on Willpower, you can also end up with the situation where your astral damage is enough to kill your body if you merge - even if the body is undamaged (if you have a low body and high will). Inelegant.

Also - new can of worms with two damage tracks:
- You have 6 boxes of damage, and project. On the astral you use a Heal spell while someone on the physical plane applies First Aid - each side heals 3 boxes of damage, but when the bodies merge they get 6 boxes again?
- You have 6 boxes of damage and project. On the astral you heal 3 boxes. On the physical, someone shoots you and does 4 boxes of damage. In the astral you take 2 boxes of damage in astral combat. How many boxes of damage do you have when you merge, and how many of those could be healed?
- You have 6 boxes of damage and project. A heal spell heals 6 boxes on your astral form. You merge. How much damage do you have? Can it be treated with first aid?
- You have 5 boxes of stun. You project. Your body is comatose and should heal stun damage because it's resting - can you add Willpower to that roll (or even make it?) Assuming you can make it, you rest away 2 boxes of stun while you are out. Your astral form isn't resting and doesn't heal - how many boxes do you have when you merge?

I find the whole idea of introducing a separate astral track to be quite inelegant since it has no precedence in any pre-existing rule, creates a situation where a being may take nearly twice as much damage as before and still live (only in very rare situations, I know), is the exact opposite of how it worked in previous editions, and opens a can of tangled worms when you can apply healing separately to the same pre-existing damage on different forms...

Oh, another interesting situation, kind of related to the partially de-railed original thread: If you rule that the astral and physical bodies are so separate as to have different tracks, what happens if you hit the body with a manabolt? Can it still resist with Willpower even though the mind is 'out', or does it become immune?

I think we can all (?) agree on a few RAW-supported statements though:
- Damage modifiers won't cross from physical to astral unless the damage existed prior to projection.
- The astral body can die while the physical lives on, and vice versa.
- Both forms react when either is damaged.

The only question is how much house ruling should be done to try and merge those statements with the rules.
- One track, full modifers for both, yet only one form at a time can die. (contradicts one RAW statement, and not especially pretty)
- Two tracks, separate modifiers; whenever the forms merge so does the damage. (house rule, but possibly RAI; new mechanic)
- One track, but separate modifiers, yet only one form at a time can die. (house rule, but possibly RAI; variant of existing mechanic)

All versions create their own problems, none of them is strictly RAW, and all have their own unique brand of abuse.
Irion
Are we back to this topic again?
The point is there is no use jumping from RAI to RAW and back. It only will lead to confusion.

I guess it is time for a rule quote...
QUOTE
The technomancer gains the ability to use his touch as trodes
for another person to provide simsense signals or even share his perception
of the Matrix. If used against the receiver’s will (for instance,
to drag a person’s mind into hot VR and nuke it with Black IC),
it requires a touch-based unarmed attack to apply the trodes, and
maintaining the grip may require a successful subduing attack (p.
152, SR4). If resisted, the technomancer must also beat their victim
in an Opposed Test, pitting Resonance + Willpower against the target’s
Intuition + Willpower. If successful, the technomancer’s touch
act as trodes until he stops or physical contact is broken.

I mean your hands work as trodes. What so hard not to get there? What happens if you apply trodes to a brain without a mind. Well, I do not know. But I suspect it is what Yerameyahu suggested.
An NO, hot VR is not a place. The MIND stays in the brain of the affected guy. It is only as if he would have hot VR active.

@snowRaven
QUOTE
- You have 6 boxes of damage, and project. On the astral you use a Heal spell while someone on the physical plane applies First Aid - each side heals 3 boxes of damage, but when the bodies merge they get 6 boxes again?

No, 3 as I wrote before. The injury you brought along + new once. If the one you brought along is healed on both sides, it is healed.
QUOTE
- You have 6 boxes of damage and project. On the astral you heal 3 boxes. On the physical, someone shoots you and does 4 boxes of damage. In the astral you take 2 boxes of damage in astral combat. How many boxes of damage do you have when you merge, and how many of those could be healed?

10.
QUOTE
- You have 6 boxes of damage and project. A heal spell heals 6 boxes on your astral form. You merge. How much damage do you have? Can it be treated with first aid?

First of all I would be very carfull with the healspell on the astral plane, for it tells to only heal physical injuries. (Thats why healing the body is so great!)
6 and Yes.
QUOTE
- You have 5 boxes of stun. You project. Your body is comatose and should heal stun damage because it's resting - can you add Willpower to that roll (or even make it?) Assuming you can make it, you rest away 2 boxes of stun while you are out. Your astral form isn't resting and doesn't heal - how many boxes do you have when you merge?

Interesting Point. Yes I assume you can rest. The astral form could not. And again 5. (And no, you could not add Willpower)

Really none of this situation was hard to solve.
A:Damage when seperated
B:Damage of Astral Form (time of merge)
C:Damage of Body (time of merge)
D:Damage after merge

D=A+max{(B-A),0}+max{(C-A),0}
QUOTE
If you rule that the astral and physical bodies are so separate as to have different tracks, what happens if you hit the body with a manabolt? Can it still resist with Willpower even though the mind is 'out', or does it become immune?

No it can't resist. It would not be immune, since it still lives. (Would be unaware of attack anyway)
snowRaven
QUOTE (Irion @ Mar 8 2012, 11:10 PM) *
I mean your hands work as trodes. What so hard not to get there? What happens if you apply trodes to a brain without a mind. Well, I do not know. But I suspect it is what Yerameyahu suggested.
An NO, hot VR is not a place. The MIND stays in the brain of the affected guy. It is only as if he would have hot VR active.


Yup.

Likely, the only effect of connecting the mage to Hot VR while he is out is that he's going to get a suprise when he comes back to his body...
almost normal
QUOTE (Irion @ Mar 8 2012, 05:10 PM) *
An NO, hot VR is not a place.


Wrong. Completely wrong. The RAW clearly states there is.
Yerameyahu
Where?
snowRaven
QUOTE (almost normal @ Mar 8 2012, 11:21 PM) *
Wrong. Completely wrong. The RAW clearly states there is.


Ummm...could you quote where you find that?

Afaik, hot VR is still just "you experience the electronic simulation of the Matrix as your persona's icon" becaues your senses are overridden. Barring Resonance realms at least, your mind doesn't 'go' anywhere.
Irion
@almost normal
I am under the impression you just want one trick to work badly.

I somehow dislike the idea, because it would basicly mean you can drag anything in VR. Would be a great way to get rid of free spirits...
Still, it would just be wrong, since they do not even have brains...
snowRaven
QUOTE (Irion @ Mar 8 2012, 11:35 PM) *
@almost normal
I am under the impression you just want one trick to work badly.

I somehow dislike the idea, because it would basicly mean you can drag anything in VR. Would be a great way to get rid of free spirits...
Still, it would just be wrong, since they do not even have brains...


Yeah, no trodes on spirits.
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