Resonance Trodes VS Astral, Who wins? Options

[Yerameyahu]

The trick does work badly. *rimshot*

[snowRaven]

The trick does work badly. *rimshot*

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Quoting myself just because I can't find a 'neat' way to solve this, and I would really like an opinion from those wanting to use a separate astral track:

Also - new can of worms with two damage tracks:
- You have 6 boxes of damage, and project. On the astral you use a Heal spell while someone on the physical plane applies First Aid - each side heals 3 boxes of damage, but when the bodies merge they get 6 boxes again?
- You have 6 boxes of damage and project. On the astral you heal 3 boxes. On the physical, someone shoots you and does 4 boxes of damage. In the astral you take 2 boxes of damage in astral combat. How many boxes of damage do you have when you merge, and how many of those could be healed?
- You have 6 boxes of damage and project. A heal spell heals 6 boxes on your astral form. You merge. How much damage do you have? Can it be treated with first aid?
- You have 5 boxes of stun. You project. Your body is comatose and should heal stun damage because it's resting - can you add Willpower to that roll (or even make it?) Assuming you can make it, you rest away 2 boxes of stun while you are out. Your astral form isn't resting and doesn't heal - how many boxes do you have when you merge?

Oh, another interesting situation, kind of related to the partially de-railed original thread: If you rule that the astral and physical bodies are so separate as to have different tracks, what happens if you hit the body with a manabolt? Can it still resist with Willpower even though the mind is 'out', or does it become immune?

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, it's tricky. Good scenarios. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't know if you can manabolt a comatose person, but I assume so. I don't know if an 'empty' mage is distinct from a comatose person, nor even if an 'empty' mage has an aura at all. My guess is 'yes', a 'blank' one?

Other options are to say that astral form inherits body damage, but not the reverse; or that the total damage is split on split, and merged on merge (come what may). All obviously house rules.

[phlapjack77]

Could you treat manabolt on a projecting mage's body as an "inanimate object"? So beat the OR etc...

As far as damage tracks, could we say that the astral form shares the stun track with the body? Or even, while projecting, the physical body has no stun track. While projecting, all attacks against the body are physical damage, or something like that...

While astrally projecting, I would say any mental stats aren't available to the physical body. So healing stun from resting is possible, but no adding Willpower or whatever.

[snowRaven]

Could you treat manabolt on a projecting mage's body as an "inanimate object"? So beat the OR etc...

...except that Manabolt is a Mana spell and can't affect non-living things. It's resisted with Willpower, so if you rule that the mind is entirely separate from the body...does it have Willpower?

[Yerameyahu]

That's an interesting, weird idea: the astral form takes the stun track away with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Hmm. … That could actually work, I think? So you'd keep all the stun you had before projecting, naturally, and you'd get knocked back to your body when it was filled (on the astral). In the meantime, your body… what, goes straight to physical overflow? (This makes the mage a bit more vulnerable, which is honestly fine with me.) This also allows for a non-KOd stranded astral form (if the body is killed), and there's no problem with Irion's 'keep First Aiding' issue. Right? Also, it means the astral form is more 'fragile', because it has only one (small) track (again, oh well, poor mage!).

As for manabolt, I'm still not sure. I think the safest, simplest assumption is to say that a living body always has a 'base' aura, even when the mage is projecting. So it remains a mana target, just as a comatose or sleeping person is. Might as well just use their base Willpower, unless you're feeling particularly cruel. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (Again and as always, this is all house rules, cuz the book doesn't seem to explain any of it.)

[snowRaven]

That's an interesting, weird idea: the astral form takes the stun track away with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Hmm. … That could actually work, I think? So you'd keep all the stun you had before projecting, naturally, and you'd get knocked back to your body when it was filled (on the astral). In the meantime, your body… what, goes straight to physical overflow? (This makes the mage a bit more vulnerable, which is honestly fine with me.) This also allows for a non-KOd stranded astral form (if the body is killed), and there's no problem with Irion's 'keep First Aiding' issue. Right? Also, it means the astral form is more 'fragile', because it has only one (small) track (again, oh well, poor mage!).

As for manabolt, I'm still not sure. I think the safest, simplest assumption is to say that a living body always has a 'base' aura, even when the mage is projecting. So it remains a mana target, just as a comatose or sleeping person is. Might as well just use their base Willpower, unless you're feeling particularly cruel. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (Again and as always, this is all house rules, cuz the book doesn't seem to explain any of it.)

Might almost just go the SR1/SR2 route then - the astral form takes both tracks with it, and any significant wound kills the body.

[Yerameyahu]

Heh. I dunno, I kinda like this. The astral form is mental, the body is physical, each gets one, no fuss. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) phlapjack may be a mad genius!

[snowRaven]

Heh. I dunno, I kinda like this. The astral form is mental, the body is physical, each gets one, no fuss. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) phlapjack may be a mad genius!

So how would you treat physical damage inflicted on the astral form?

Rule away physical attacks on the astral entirely, have all damage affect the stun track regardless of type, or apply it to the body?

This would have the side-effect that it is impossible to kill a mage on the astral - you can only disrupt the astral form and send it back to the body.

[Yerameyahu]

I'd apply all to stun. And yes, that's definitely what would happen. I think that's fine. It indeed depends on whether you want astral forms to be disrupted (like the inverse of spirits), or for mages to actually die there. As a tradeoff, they'd be very fragile there, and their body would be taking physical damage from all attacks.

Like I said, we're definitely talking about a whole reinterpretation, and not everything can be integrated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I guess you could indeed say that astral physical damage gets shunted straight to the body (physical) track, in which case you could die on the astral. That brings us back the issues of Irion's 'cross-plane healing' and the lack of 'stranded astral mage' (which is so niche that I don't care too much). It's slightly more complex.

[snowRaven]

I'd apply all to stun. And yes, that's definitely what would happen. I think that's fine. It indeed depends on whether you want astral forms to be disrupted (like the inverse of spirits), or for mages to actually die there. As a tradeoff, they'd be very fragile there, and their body would be taking physical damage from all attacks.

Like I said, we're definitely talking about a whole reinterpretation, and not everything can be integrated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I guess you could indeed say that astral physical damage gets shunted straight to the body (physical) track, in which case you could die on the astral. That brings us back the issues of Irion's 'cross-plane healing' and the lack of 'stranded astral mage' (which is so niche that I don't care too much). It's slightly more complex.

It has the side-effect of making mages much weaker on the astral vs spirits...and while I'm all for weakening mages, I'm not fond of empowering spirits in the process (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif) (quite the contrary)

[Yerameyahu]

Only on the astral though; I don't care what they do as long as they're not on the physical plane bothering decent people, with their dirty ITNW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I guess the flipside of being 'weaker' vs. spirits is being immortal vs. spirits. Hm.

[phlapjack77]

...except that Manabolt is a Mana spell and can't affect non-living things. It's resisted with Willpower, so if you rule that the mind is entirely separate from the body...does it have Willpower?

Doh! You're right. So manabolt would have no effect. But I'm ok with that - just like a "control actions" spell wouldn't really affect the comatose body either...

Heh. I dunno, I kinda like this. The astral form is mental, the body is physical, each gets one, no fuss. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) phlapjack may be a mad genius!

Hehe - at least a better idea than the auto-hits one, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So how would you treat physical damage inflicted on the astral form?

Rule away physical attacks on the astral entirely, have all damage affect the stun track regardless of type, or apply it to the body?

This would have the side-effect that it is impossible to kill a mage on the astral - you can only disrupt the astral form and send it back to the body.

Can you do physical attacks on the astral? Or is everything "astral", and only interpreted in ways "we" understand, like a "melee attack" which isn't really melee at all. You can't even use Physical spells on the astral.

I would see the "mage killing" the same as disrupting a spirit - the spirit isn't dead, it's just sent back to it's home plane. A disrupted astral mage returns to it's home plane (body).

I'd apply all to stun. And yes, that's definitely what would happen. I think that's fine. It indeed depends on whether you want astral forms to be disrupted (like the inverse of spirits), or for mages to actually die there. As a tradeoff, they'd be very fragile there, and their body would be taking physical damage from all attacks.

Exactly. This is how I would see it working.

I guess you could indeed say that astral physical damage gets shunted straight to the body (physical) track, in which case you could die on the astral. That brings us back the issues of Irion's 'cross-plane healing' and the lack of 'stranded astral mage' (which is so niche that I don't care too much). It's slightly more complex.

If my line of reasoning above is correct, there is no "astral physical" damage. Maybe stun-overflow from astral would appear on the body, showing what a powerful attack / massive amount of damage was sustained. I don't think there are any cross-plane healing issues with astral / physical track separation?

[Yerameyahu]

Not physical (vs. astral), but physical (vs. stun); there's definitely non-stun damage on the astral (just cast manabolt). This setup would certainly change that (converting it all to stun, effectively).

Yeah, that last bit is a distinct variant. I don't prefer it, but it's interesting to brainstorm.

[phlapjack77]

Sorry, yeah - I see that. I also don't like the mana / physical spell divide. I would do away with that too, if I could (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[pbangarth]

Sorry, yeah - I see that. I also don't like the mana / physical spell divide. I would do away with that too, if I could (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

A bit of an aside:

Yet this divide is a major barrier to my FSPC being able to carry all kinds of cool spells into the astral with him, eg. spells that beef/speed him up. I'm happy to live with this limitation.

[phlapjack77]

Yet this divide is a major barrier to my FSPC being able to carry all kinds of cool spells into the astral with him, eg. spells that beef/speed him up. I'm happy to live with this limitation.

What kinds of spells?

[phlapjack77]

Wrong. Completely wrong. The RAW clearly states there is.

I'm still waiting for this too.

The RAS override thing seals the deal, I think (in addition to everything said before, of course!). When astrally projecting, your body is limp, a meat-bag. When in cold/hot full VR, your body is still functional, but with large penalties (by bypassing the RAS override). That says that in VR, you don't go anywhere, but rather, signal is coming to you. So Resonance Trodes is a way of bringing a VR signal to someone who wouldn't normally be able to (or might not want to) receive VR in the first place.

[Irion]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Quoting myself just because I can't find a 'neat' way to solve this, and I would really like an opinion from those wanting to use a separate astral track:

I wrote you a formula. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif)


@phlapjack77

What kinds of spells?

Increase attribute for example. But there is no reason why it should not be a mana spell. (Actually it should be a mana spell, unless it grows you a bigger brain or more muscles.)
And yes, it is not said that physical spells carry over. And again we have the whole issue of Cyberware in the body of the mage and spells cast on the body of the mage...


(And to add insult to injury: The mage is projecting and you are implanting cyberware. Does he loose magic? It is actually cybermancy, without cybermancy.)

Like I said, the whole astral thing is written poorly for beeing such a major part of SR

[phlapjack77]

Increase attribute for example. But there is no reason why it should not be a mana spell. (Actually it should be a mana spell, unless it grows you a bigger brain or more muscles.)
And yes, it is not said that physical spells carry over. And again we have the whole issue of Cyberware in the body of the mage and spells cast on the body of the mage...

If I were king for a day...Doing away with the mana/physical divide - yeah, increasing a mental attribute would carry-over to the astral, while a physical increase would not.

(And to add insult to injury: The mage is projecting and you are implanting cyberware. Does he loose magic? It is actually cybermancy, without cybermancy.)

Like I said, the whole astral thing is written poorly for beeing such a major part of SR

In this situation, it seems that adding cyberware damages the aura, and so it would definitely affect the projecting mage. Magic loss and everything. This works with the weird Essence rules, where cutting off your arm doesn't cause Essence / Magic loss, but then adding cyberware to replace the arm does.

OR maybe if we really want to make the physical / astral divide wider, then no, whatever you do to the body (short of killing it) doesn't affect the astrally projecting mage, until the mage returns to his body, then all effects take place immediately. Blammo!

[pbangarth]

Others have answered for me, phlapjack77, but for another example, the one spell so many like to keep sustained on them is Increase Reflexes. Also a physical spell.

[Yerameyahu]

It's usually not that the mana/physical divide itself is the main issue, but that specific things seem incorrectly assigned to mana or physical. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) A lot of it could be solved, perhaps, by making many things 'both'. But that's another whole discussion.

But, I wanna say that, assuming all the other house rulings, the *living* body of an 'absent' mage retains an aura. This could be a pale shadow of the real one (dim, but still unique), or it can be some kind of 'blank living thing' aura, or whatever. But as long as the living body has an aura, and a mystic connection to the astral form, I think we can handle any weird issues of mana spells, Willpower resistance, and (seriously?) simultaneous cyberware implantation.

[pbangarth]

The discussion of Shedim in Street Magic tells us that they can treat a magician's vacated body as a prepared vessel for possession. So they still have to overcome the magician's Mental Attributes, but with an advantage. Seems like that could apply to other attempts to mess with the mind of a magician's vacated body.

[Yerameyahu]

Nice! So that supports the idea that it's still got the mage's normal aura and/or Mental Attribs? Maybe some kind of penalty due to the 'absence' or 'distance'? I'd still say that mental manipulations, illusions, etc. would have no effect, but for the purposes of manabolt, Heal, Increase X, etc.?

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu
Sounds good right now.
Can't see any problems with it, but I wouldn't be surprised if there would be a hand full.