House Rules : Programs not replacing attributes Options

[Yerameyahu]

JonathanC, I said you were lying, not that you're a liar. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) And you were: deliberate falsehoods to support your position.

You can do what you want, HaxDBeheader, but I'm just telling you what I understand the consensus to be. Your position requires the assumption that the matrix stats for various nodes are riddled with errors, which is indeed a possibility. *shrug* I rate that as a less likely explanation. In addition, many of those examples have (as I said) Firewall > System, so the nexus proviso doesn't make sense as an argument against them; it's not a question of Response capping System, but System capping Firewall.

Incidentally, this exact question is answer in the FAQ (as I have relayed). I should've mentioned it before, but some people dislike the FAQ.

[thorya]

You have 3 months of downtime between runs? I mean, unless you optimized purely for Software (in which case, why isn't this guy working for a corp?), you're probably looking at around 10 dice or so for this test. 10 dice, to get 20 hits for your rating 10 stealth program, with an interval of 1 month. Let's say you get an average of 3 hits per test; that's 7 months. For one program. You could rush the job, but then you increase your chance of glitching (glitches now occur with 1s AND 2s), and glitches undo your work, so it wouldn't be much of an improvement.

Now, lets say you pick up an Encephalon or something, or maybe pick up a specialization in hacking programs. So you're hanging around 12 dice. That's an average of 4 hits per test, so you're down to "only" 5 months, on average, per program. What game are you playing in that has 5 months of downtime between runs? Even if you just take a week here or there, that's still 5 months of in-game time before you're seeing any sort of benefit.

And who says that Herpa Derp can't buy programs? You think he didn't spend some of those 40 points he saved on contacts?

Except, again, you did not actually read what I wrote. I was proposing a month and a half between runs. I said a rating 8 program and with 10 dice. Increased chance of glitch is not that big a deal, you glitch 1/6 of the time on your check and it sets you back one interval on average. So if you rush the job, you cut the time in half and add 2 weeks to the test. But I wasn't even suggesting that you rush it.

If you're runners go out and pull a job every week, then it's true that no skill that is used in downtime will be useful. Just because your runners perform more high stakes corporate crime in a month than most crime syndicates do in a year doesn't mean everyone does. It all depends upon your game. And everyone needs downtime. To heal. To learn new skills. To track down expensive gear. To have their arm cut off and have a shiny new metal one put in its place. Just waiting for the next job to come in. To enjoy the money they risk their lives for on a yearly, monthly, weekly, daily, hourly (take your pick) basis.

And again, I did not say that Herpa Derp couldn't buy programs, just that a hacker that had written his own would be better than him in the long run. Herpa Derp doesn't have any growth potential in his specialization.

[HaxDBeheader]

Well... In actuality, Firewall IS uncapped from Response. THE ONLY Matrix Attribute that is so limited is System. And again, MANY of the example Nodes in Unwired are showing a Firewall higher than System/Response. The Matrix Attributes are all Attrributes, not Programs, per se. System and Firewall may be "Programs" but they are not PROGRAMS.

It is not a position that "there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with the rules, because they're the rules" so much as that they are the RULES, and if you dislike them, there are OPTIONAL RULES to address what you do not like. You continue to argue that the book is wrong, and that is the disconnect. They have explained WHY they chose to go the route they did with Hacking. They then provided Options in the Advanced Book (Unwired) for those that would prefer a different take on the issue. It is you that continues to tout the rules as Broken, even when others have pointed out the areas where you are mistaken. Not sure where to go from here, actually. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I've addressed your first comment in the message posted just before this. I beleive there is pretty good evidence that you are mistaken although I would be happier if you were not (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As for your second paragraph, your final sentance is a good summary of my opinion. They seem to be talking past each other rather than to each other. Contentious concepts are not clearly defined so staw men can easily arise. Some things that are gaming style preferences are not identified as such so personal taste becomes a point to argue over (innately unresolvable argument). Spiraling into uselessness.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* My position is eminently reasonable: the book does things one way, it works fine, and has fluff rationale behind it. There is also another way, equally valid, not morally superior (hehe), and fully a matter of personal taste, which is available from Optional Rules.

His position is that the book is wrong and broken, that the numerous people who disagree are stupid, and that skills he values are the only thing anyone values.

[HaxDBeheader]

JonathanC, I said you were lying, not that you're a liar. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) And you were: deliberate falsehoods to support your position.

You can do what you want, HaxDBeheader, but I'm just telling you what I understand the consensus to be. Your position requires the assumption that the matrix stats for various nodes are riddled with errors, which is indeed a possibility. *shrug* I rate that as a less likely explanation. In addition, many of those examples have (as I said) Firewall > System, so the nexus proviso doesn't make sense as an argument against them; it's not a question of Response capping System, but System capping Firewall.

The general principle of "can break the rules" means that it is not a good measure of the rules even by extrapolation so nodes not limiting firewall by system is irrelevant.

It does not require any matrix nodes stats to be in error other than the ones that I explicitly called out (4 instances spread over the entire book Unwired). Of those 4 instances, 3 of them are clearly and explicitly in error with the direct rules from SR4A page 222 regarding system <= response.

On the other hand, if we go to example characters using commlinks of which there is a huge variety in both the core and unwired a general patter is quite clear: Firewall <= System <= Response. Even for hackers/riggers who would want as large a firewall as possible they cap their firewall at their system.

To clarify, I do not see this as an adversarial discussion I am merely uncertain where you have derived your position from. For now I will presume this discussion has hit an impasse and shelve it. Thanks for your input & happy running.

[Yerameyahu]

Do note the FAQ reference I edited in. Again, some people like the FAQ, others don't. But I'm just explaining that this isn't 'my' position, it's the prevailing and uncontroversial one I've heard on Dumpshock for years. You should certainly use whatever rules you prefer for your own game, because there is no RPG police to stop you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't agree that 'System ignores Response-capping' invalidates the 'Firewall ignores System-capping', but whatever. Examples + SR4A rules + FAQ + public opinion = truth, for me, but to each his own.

[JonathanC]

Well... In actuality, Firewall IS uncapped from Response. THE ONLY Matrix Attribute that is so limited is System. And again, MANY of the example Nodes in Unwired are showing a Firewall higher than System/Response. The Matrix Attributes are all Attrributes, not Programs, per se. System and Firewall may be "Programs" but they are not PROGRAMS.

It is not a position that "there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with the rules, because they're the rules" so much as that they are the RULES, and if you dislike them, there are OPTIONAL RULES to address what you do not like. You continue to argue that the book is wrong, and that is the disconnect. They have explained WHY they chose to go the route they did with Hacking. They then provided Options in the Advanced Book (Unwired) for those that would prefer a different take on the issue. It is you that continues to tout the rules as Broken, even when others have pointed out the areas where you are mistaken. Not sure where to go from here, actually. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If there was an explanation of "why" by the developers, I must have missed it.

[HaxDBeheader]

Hero Lab shows firewall as being upgradable but limited to 2 higher than the system, IIRC.

Interesting. That would be cool. Curious where it came from if accurate but cool either way. Hmmm, isn't there a commlink/program mod that lets you exceed system by 2? Wonder if that's what it is from. I'll have to check. I'll try to start another thread on the topic when I get a chance.

[JonathanC]

*shrug* My position is eminently reasonable: the book does things one way, it works fine, and has fluff rationale behind it. There is also another way, equally valid, not morally superior (hehe), and fully a matter of personal taste, which is available from Optional Rules.

His position is that the book is wrong and broken, that the numerous people who disagree are stupid, and that skills he values are the only thing anyone values.

This is, as you might say, a lie.

1. It does not necessarily "work fine", because it creates a disparity between builds. Playing a smart hacker is objectively, demonstrably inferior to playing a dumb one.

2. I *do* value the Logic-based skills (Chemistry, in particular, is a favorite), but that doesn't mean that they give an objective, mechanical advantage when hacking (they don't, unless you use the option rules in Unwired, and even then the benefit of having a high Logic is questionable).

3. I have no idea why you insist on framing this in terms of what is morally superior. Do you really believe that you are morally superior for defending a bad ruleset that happened to make it into print?

4. I have never called anyone stupid; when the namecalling ("liar") began in this thread, you were the one who started it.

[HaxDBeheader]

Do note the FAQ reference I edited in. Again, some people like the FAQ, others don't. But I'm just explaining that this isn't 'my' position, it's the prevailing and uncontroversial one I've heard on Dumpshock for years. You should certainly use whatever rules you prefer for your own game, because there is no RPG police to stop you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't agree that 'System ignores Response-capping' invalidates the 'Firewall ignores System-capping', but whatever. Examples + SR4A rules + FAQ + public opinion = truth, for me, but to each his own.

FAQ? Cool, I must have missed that edit. I'll go dig through it. As I said earlier I'm just interested in clarity and have no strong investment in either position.

Note: I have a similar opinion of the evidence chain that you do but my understanding of examples and rules both say firewall is limited by system. I am not familiar with either the FAQ or public opinion as I just joined the board (playing since 1st edition was brand new, took hiatus from 2001-2009). I have read a few threads on it over the years but never in enough depth to be able to gauge 'public opinion'.

Regardless, thanks for feedback.

[Yerameyahu]

I mentioned it a good 3+ times. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Technology has created computer interfaces that allow the user to move through the Matrix at the speed of thought. However, being made of optical chips and electromagnetic waves, the Matrix moves at the speed of light. The body and the brain are slower than even the lowliest program, and as such a hacker’s attributes are less important than his software and hardware.
Some attributes are important for Matrix-related tasks. Logic is vital when writing programs, hacking hardware (such as locks and other devices), and building or modifying drones. Willpower is extremely useful when dealing with feedback and dumpshock, two situations that all too often affect the Matrix specialist.

In the Matrix, you leave your meat body behind and surf the wireless world with your mind, your intellect, and the programs you carry. Your attributes take a back seat to the programs (or complex forms) you run. Even Mental attributes like Logic are feeble before a three-million-to- one-or-better speed advantage and the need to compute thousands of operations with every action taken. Ultimately your mind is simply commanding your software and hardware to do things. You’re only as good as the programs and systems you use.

Again, combat skills don't give an "objective, mechanical advantage when hacking" either.

I'm saying neither is superior (morally or otherwise). You're the one repeatedly saying how wrong it is that script kiddies exist, how unacceptable the book's take on the matrix is, etc.

Again, I didn't call you "a liar". I said you were lying, and you were. I felt your argumentation has implied that the various people who disagree lack mental capacity, so I'm sorry if saying so bothered you.

[JonathanC]

I mentioned it a good 3+ times. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Again, combat skills don't give an "objective, mechanical advantage when hacking" either.

I never said that they did. But qualities do, and so does more starting money....both things that Herpa Derp has in spades over any intelligent Hacker.

I'm saying neither is superior (morally or otherwise). You're the one repeatedly saying how wrong it is that script kiddies exist, how unacceptable the book's take on the matrix is, etc.

When have I said that it was morally wrong that script kiddies exist? I said that it is unbalanced that they are the only type of hacker supported by the rules. "Smart" hackers are just pressing buttons as well, so basically all Hackers are script kiddies, which is quite a contrast to how Deckers used to work.

Again, I didn't call you "a liar". I said you were lying, and you were.

There, you did it again. You're calling me a liar, and then lying about not calling me a liar.

I felt your argumentation has implied that the various people who disagree lack mental capacity, so I'm sorry if saying so bothered you.

You don't get to "feel" about an argument: there's what I said, and then there's the bullshit that you claim that I said. This falls into the latter category.

[HaxDBeheader]

Exactly. So, does having that *option* make the game less fun, or more fun? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The single most important question for any game, IMHO.

[Yerameyahu]

JonathanC, you *repeatedly* said that getting combat skills made 'Herpa' a 'better' character than a high-Logic hacker having Logic-skills.

You said that it's 'not okay' for Logic not to be involved in hacking. You also frequently argued that script kiddies were wrong, that their rules were broken and bad, that they were replacing people with mere money (with the implication that this is bad, for some reason), etc. (Script kiddie means 'no Logic hacker', here.)

!! You just called *me* a liar! Someone alert the police. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If you're just dying to, we can go back and examine the false points you presented, but I doubt it's worth our effort.

I do, and I did. I'm sorry if I slandered you. You're right, though: what you said (and how, and how repeatedly despite facts) speaks for itself.

--
Indeed. Under the existing rules, you can be equally good at hacking, and choose to have Logic or not. And if you don't like it, you can use the Optional Rules. Nothing requires concluding that the default rules are broken or wrong for every player at every table.

[JonathanC]

You *repeatedly* said that getting combat skills made 'Herpa' a 'better' character than a high-Logic hacker having Logic-skills.

More useful to the group, because he had more points to put into hacking-related qualities, AND more points for combat survivability, which would make him less of a burden on the group when things got hairy.

You said that it's 'not okay' for Logic not to be involved in hacking. You also frequently argued that script kiddies were wrong, that their rules were broken and bad, that they were replacing people with mere money (with the implication that this is bad, for some reason), etc. (Script kiddie means 'no Logic hacker', here.)

How does this relate to moral wrongness again? This is a rules argument that sort of crosses over into a flavor argument ("what is a hacker like?"). I fail to see how this equates to any sort of moral crusade on my part.

!! You just called *me* a liar! Someone alert the police. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If you're just dying to, we can go back and examine the false points you presented, but I doubt it's worth our effort.

I do, and I did. I'm sorry if I slandered you.

Even if I was mistaken about the rules (and please, feel free to go back and find one of these "false points"), lying requires intent. You have *repeatedly* lied about calling me a liar; it is accurate for me to call you a liar then, because you are intentionally lying. Unless you wish to claim that you are ignorant of the meaning of the word liar, in which case I will gladly apologize, as I was unaware of your ignorance.

[HaxDBeheader]

FAQ? Cool, I must have missed that edit. I'll go dig through it. As I said earlier I'm just interested in clarity and have no strong investment in either position.

Note: I have a similar opinion of the evidence chain that you do but my understanding of examples and rules both say firewall is limited by system. I am not familiar with either the FAQ or public opinion as I just joined the board (playing since 1st edition was brand new, took hiatus from 2001-2009). I have read a few threads on it over the years but never in enough depth to be able to gauge 'public opinion'.

Regardless, thanks for feedback.

OK, found it explicitly called out in the FAQ on Catalyst's website. Cool. My group will be happy we don't have to buy maxed commlinks to have good security. Would still need a high system to run a good Encrypt program but that is less important than outright commlink hijacking because of a bad firewall. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Thanks for the link in PM (http://www.shadowrun4.com/game-resources/frequently-asked-questions/)

[Yerameyahu]

Right, but apparently while combat is useful to the group (which is different from your repeated 'good at *hacking*' argument), none of the Logic-skills are useful to the group. This is simply false, as different posters have attested. It may be true for *your table*.

The flavor is clearly given in the book, so it's not that the flavor is wrong. It's that you just don't agree. Instead, you've said that it's not okay, unfair, etc. that the script kiddie doesn't have to pay for Logic. That's not an objective argument. That's saying you don't think it's right.

Aha, but if I *thought* it was true that you were lying, then I wasn't lying about you lying, by your standard of intent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) So then you're being inaccurate (but, assuming you believe it, *not* lying about me lying about you lying—just mistaken). Okay, hang on and I'll dig up the relevant points.

--
Okay, you said:

I still think you have a very weak argument here. "Hey look guys, I saved a couple hundred bucks! And it only cost me my ability to be useful at anything that isn't related to monkeying around with computers!"

Meanwhile, his friends are like "So, about that....are you any better at, you know, ACTUALLY BREAKING INTO COMPUTERS than that drooling idiot Troll over there with the store-bought commlinik?"

And what will his answer be? No, that's what. In fact, there's a good chance that the moronic Troll can kick his ass in and out of the Matrix, and smoke him in any sort of Matrix-oriented contest. But hey, he can program his own software, that is no better than storebought software, so that has to count for something, right?

Each of these is false. It's well over a couple hundred, it doesn't cost the ability to be useful at non-computer tasks, there's no reason he's worse (esp. *much* worse) at hacking/Matrix tasks, and self-coded software is better than storebought in several ways. Because each of these points had already been addressed at least once, I assumed your intent.

[JonathanC]

Right, but apparently while combat is useful to the group (which is different from your repeated 'good at *hacking*' argument), none of the Logic-skills are useful to the group. This is simply false, as different posters have attested. It may be true for *your table*.

They are not as useful as combat skills; this is an objective truth. You may not necessarily need to make a Chemistry test to brew your own toxins; you could just buy them instead. But there really isn't a substitute for being able to dodge bullets and shoot back when (not if) the run goes pear-shaped.

The flavor is clearly given in the book, so it's not that the flavor is wrong. It's that you just don't agree. Instead, you've said that it's not okay, unfair, etc. that the script kiddie doesn't have to pay for Logic. That's not an objective argument. That's saying you don't think it's right.

What does this have to do with morality? Pointing out the inconsistency of intelligence going from a benefit to a liability for people who work with computers isn't a moral crusade.

Aha, but if I *thought* it was true that you were lying, then I wasn't lying about you lying, by your standard of intent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) So then you're being inaccurate (but, assuming you believe it, *not* lying about me lying about you lying—just mistaken). Okay, hang on and I'll dig up the relevant points.

You would need to demonstrate a clear reason for the belief that I was lying. Simply thinking that I was wrong is insufficient.

Okay, you said:Each of these is false. It's well over a couple hundred,

The amount depends on what is being built.

it doesn't cost the ability to be useful at non-computer tasks,

Sure it does. Points that you spend on Logic (which is useless to the specific role of hacking, and to combat) are points that cannot be spent on things that benefit other areas.

there's no reason he's worse (esp. *much* worse) at hacking/Matrix tasks

As I have explained repeatedly, he is worse because he has fewer points with which to make himself better. He chucked 40 points into something that has nothing to do with his ability to hack, while Herpa Derp put his points into Qualities and skills that make him a better hacker.

and self-coded software is better than storebought in several ways.

Software containing the optional benefits listed in Unwired can be bought with money, so your assertion is false.

[Yerameyahu]

As I said, the points had already been covered and they were wrong. If you were simply mistaken, I apologize again for slandering you. I can see this is an extremely sensitive spot, for some reason.

You just did it again, it's astonishing: why is combat important when it helps your argument, but only hacking is important when *that* helps your argument? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As for the rest, I'm not going to re-rehash.

[JonathanC]

As I said, the points had already been covered and they were wrong. If you were simply mistaken, I apologize again for slandering you. I can see this is an extremely sensitive spot, for some reason.

You just did it again, it's astonishing: why is combat important when it helps your argument, but only hacking is important when *that* helps your argument? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

As for the rest, I'm not going to re-rehash.

You're trying to make this more complex than it needs to be. Hacking and combat specialties are essential to Shadowrunning (so are some other specialties, like magic). Crafting is not. Crafting is a nice bit of frosting on the Shadowrunner cake. Comparing someone who is good at both hacking and combat to someone who is good at hacking, useless in combat, and spends 2 months of downtime building commlinks as a hobby isn't much of a comparison.

[Yerameyahu]

And First Aid, Medicine, free Know skills, and everything else that Logic can do. Combat is nice, but it's not necessarily the whole game, and it doesn't make the hacker a better hacker. Logic skills, on the other hand, are much more related to hacking (as the book quotes I provided note). You have no reason to discount them, or to claim that spending extra BP in combat makes script kiddie 'better' than the smart hacker (who, in turn, hasn't 'wasted' his points). They're merely different characters who are good at different things. Nothing is 'broken' here, especially since you can choose to play either way.

[JonathanC]

And First Aid, Medicine, free Know skills, and everything else that Logic can do. Combat is nice, but it's not necessarily the whole game, and it doesn't make the hacker a better hacker.

Neither does Logic, which is what you seem to have so much trouble understanding. None of the kills you've listed have anything to do with hacking. If you're letting people hack with their First Aid skill, you're doing it wrong.

[Yerameyahu]

And neither does combat have anything to do with hacking, see? Except, as I said (and the book says), hardware and software are *related* to hacking. Certainly more than combat.

And actually, either hacker can probably do a nice job on First Aid by rigging the medkit… So it does have something to do with it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[JonathanC]

And neither does combat have anything to do with hacking, see? Except, as I said (and the book says), hardware and software are *related* to hacking. Certainly more than combat.

Contradicting yourself in the same sentence. Nice.

We've already covered this: There is nothing you gain by investing in hardware/software skills that you could not gain simply by spending money. Comparatively, the points spent on qualities cannot be replaced by money, and the points spent on combat give you a benefit outside of hacking that is far more useful in general play than the ability to waste downtime so save some cred.

[UmaroVI]

How about "the ability to get past a maglock with Keypad and Anti-Tamper?"