House Rules : Programs not replacing attributes Options

[thorya]

We generally compare Program vs. Progra,. If you have a Rating 5 Program, and you are going up against a Rating 8 MilSpec Installation, then you are at a -3 DP. It is a direct comparison vs. the relevant software involved in the test.

And yes, Logic is Highly important in this regard, thoguh software may be able to help you if you are running top of the line programs against Midrange targets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We don't play with Unwired, so our programs cap out at Rating 6. But yeah, keeping programs in there as a bonus is much more effective than hit caps.

[Warlordtheft]

You could also to avoid dice bloat go with Hacking + Logic + Program ratiing - opposing program rating (what ever that might be).

[Yerameyahu]

Right, well that's what TJ and Nath mentioned ('like Reach'). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Haha, Warlordtheft, your earlier post is basically the worst-case scenario! Simply put, Logic doesn't affect hacking in SR4 (standard), because hacking in SR4 (standard) isn't like chess or crossword puzzles. You can certainly change that if you prefer, but that doesn't make it 'wrong'.

[snowRaven]

One way to give technomancers some love if you use Logic for Hackers is to link all technomancer hacking skills to Resonance (Since the technomancer-vesions of the skills are different from the 'normal' versions anyway). It'll have a negative impact on techno's with low Resonance, though...

[thorya]

The only reason I assigned DP modifiers to the program ratings is because not all tests with programs are opposed and I wanted the ratings to have some meaning even for those. Otherwise, I think the 'Reach' rule is very effective as a houserule.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, I like what you did there. You can also just generalize it (like, +Rating/2). In the end, the only questions are 'what relative weight should X, Y, and Z have?' and 'how messy can you let the rules be?'.

For example, coming from the other side, you could just *add* a bonus from Logic (e.g., Logic/2), or do something like thorya's ± system (Logic 1 = -2, Logic 3 = 0, etc.). They're all equally valid, and how good they are depends on your group.

--
For technomancers, you *can* also let them use the standard rules (relying on CFs).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The only reason I assigned DP modifiers to the program ratings is because not all tests with programs are opposed and I wanted the ratings to have some meaning even for those. Otherwise, I think the 'Reach' rule is very effective as a houserule.

That makes sense... However, if they are unopposed, then you get the full rating of the Software. Just like Reach against some one with No Reach. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
It is indeed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

As with any house rule, the GM will need to pay attention, though. It may be that doing as you say, TJ, results in some big balance shifts in some cases. (Anyone who tries, let us know?)

[Thanee]

- Misread -

[phlapjack77]

One way to give technomancers some love if you use Logic for Hackers is to link all technomancer hacking skills to Resonance (Since the technomancer-vesions of the skills are different from the 'normal' versions anyway). It'll have a negative impact on techno's with low Resonance, though...

As it should have a negative impact, I would think. Udoshi's house rules for Technomancers make a lot of sense.

[Yerameyahu]

Thanee, he said dice cap, not hit cap.

[Midas]

It has a ton of linked skills, yes, but none that are useful to a hacker. And an "epic" hacker would be better off with a Logic of 1. Slamm-O, assuming that he has a high Logic, would get toasted easily by anyone with the same amount of Karma/BP, because they would have started off superior to him (having spent their points on stuff that wasn't Logic) and just gotten better from there.

@JohnathanC
While I understand your frustration that high Logic hackers and low Logic script kiddies are functionally the same under the standard rules, you are overstating your case. The optional rules are there, give them a try, or even try the house rule suggested by the OP.

Your assertion that Slamm-O somehow "wasted" his valuable BP on high Logic is laughable. It seems from your comments that you do not understand what roleplaying is. People will number-crunch to various degrees during CharGen, but playing a high Logic hacker is a completely different animal to playing a low Logic script kiddie. Slamm-O would not have 1/10 as much respect from the hacker community at large as if he were a drooling Logic 1 moron.

I have issues with players submitting/playing functionally incompetant characters (Stat 1 Attributes) because it is mechanically okay to do so. That does not fly with me.

Quoted for truth.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

There is another role that is totally replaceable with money - the street sam. Just get one(many) decent combat drone(s), a R5 commlink w/ simsense accelerator, R10 Command (optimization 5), a Skillwire System 5 w/ Expert System, a simsense booster, a Nanohive w/ Limbic Nanites*, qualia, synch, a focus reality amplifier, a R4 Tacnet (w/ Sensor Drones), and pirate all relevant skillsofts (R4 w/ Pluscode 3)

-> You have a Combat Drone w/ 16 dice for everything combat related (20 with Tacnet)

*to counter the stupid drone perception rules

[StConstantine]

There is another role that is totally replaceable with money - the street sam. Just get one(many) decent combat drone(s), a R5 commlink w/ simsense accelerator, R10 Command (optimization 5), a Skillwire System 5 w/ Expert System, a simsense booster, a Nanohive w/ Limbic Nanites*, qualia, synch, a focus reality amplifier, a R4 Tacnet (w/ Sensor Drones), and pirate all relevant skillsofts (R4 w/ Pluscode 3)

And hope to god no one thought to bring emp or a decent hacker

[UmaroVI]

If your definition of "replaceable" is "replaceable with an enormous pile of nuyen," you can quite literally take a random bum with all 1s in his physical attributes off the street, load him up with 'ware, and be outright better than a starting street samurai. Shadowrun works like that and is supposed to work like that; money=power.

[Thanee]

Thanee, he said dice cap, not hit cap.

Ahh... my bad! Thank you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, I made the same mistake earlier. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Warlordtheft]

Right, well that's what TJ and Nath mentioned ('like Reach'). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Haha, Warlordtheft, your earlier post is basically the worst-case scenario! Simply put, Logic doesn't affect hacking in SR4 (standard), because hacking in SR4 (standard) isn't like chess or crossword puzzles. You can certainly change that if you prefer, but that doesn't make it 'wrong'.

I'm just throwing ideas out there. I'd like to have logic play a part in hacking (so there is a RAW reason to have a high logic rather than just fluff), but the only reason now is programming and electronics. I've tried the other route and found it to be sadly lacking in exploitation, and the general fact that it kinda of became he who has the highest program rating wins.

[JonathanC]

As a response to people who claim that I am overstating my case, I would like to introduce you to Herpa D. Derp, the greatest Hacker alive (who isn't even all that optimized, because it's 2AM and I am tired). He rolls 17 dice when hacking into a system with Exploit. He is a drooling moron who probably can't even *spell* Matrix, but he is better at hacking than any Logic 5 character would be at chargen, and is probably more useful to his team as well.

[ Spoiler ]

Herpa D. Derp (Human) Movement:10/25, Swim: 5
Body 3
Agility 4
Reaction 5(7)
Strength 1
Charisma 3
Intuition 4
Logic 1
Willpower 5
Edge 2
Essence 3.5
Init 9(11)
IP 3

Qualities: Aptitude (Hacking), Codeslinger (Exploit)

Active Skills: Animal Handling 3, Animal Training 3, Archery 3, Artisan 3, Automatics 3, Blades 3, Clubs 3, Computer 5, Con 2, Data Search 5, Disguise 6, Diving 2, Dodge 6, Electronic Warfare 5, Escape Artist 3, Etiquette 2, First Aid 5, Forgery 3, Gunnery 3, Gymnastics 8, Hacking (Exploit) 8 (10), Heavy Weapons 3, Infiltration 6, Instruction 2, Intimidation 2, Leadership 2, Locksmith 3, Longarms 3, Navigation 3, Negotiation 2, Palming 6, Parachuting 2, Perception 3, Pilot Ground Craft 6, Pilot Watercraft 6, Pistols (Semi-Automatics) 8 (10), Riding 6, Shadowing 6, Survival 4, Throwing Weapons 3, Tracking 3, Unarmed Combat 3
Weapon DMG AP Mode RC
Ares Predator IV 5P -1 SA 0
Smartgun System
Ares Predator IV 5P -1 SA 0
Smartgun System
Fichetti Security 600 4P - SA 1
Stock, Laser Sight
Ruger Super Warhawk 6P -2 SS 0
Unarmed Attack 1S - 0 0

Combat Skill Rtg
Archery 3
Automatics 3
Blades 3
Clubs 3
Dodge 6
Heavy Weapons 3
Longarms 3
Pistols (Semi-Automatics) 8
Throwing Weapons 3
Unarmed Combat 3

Armor (8/1) B I
Armor Clothing 4 0
Form-Fitting Half-Body Suit 4 1

Cyberware/Bioware: Datajack, Wired Reflexes Rating 2

Gear: Ammo: EX-Explosive Rounds x30, Ammo: EX-Explosive Rounds x40, Ammo: Explosive Rounds x30, Ammo: Explosive Rounds x40, Ammo: Gel Rounds x50, Ammo: Gel Rounds x50, Ammo: Regular Ammo x100, Ammo: Regular Ammo x100, Ammo: Stick-n-Shock x50, Ammo: Stick-n-Shock x50, Analyze [Copy Protection 5, Registration] , AR Gloves, Armor [Copy Protection 5, Registration] , Attack [Copy Protection 5, Registration] , Browse [Copy Protection 5, Registration] , Command [Copy Protection 5, Registration] , Corrupt [Copy Protection 5, Registration] , Decrypt [Copy Protection 5, Registration] , Defuse [Copy Protection 5, Registration] , Edit [Copy Protection 5, Registration] , Encrypt [Copy Protection 5, Registration] , Exploit [Copy Protection 5, Registration] , Fairlight Caliban [Novatech Navi, Sim Module (Hot)] , Fake License, Fake SIN, Holo Projector, Medic [Copy Protection 5, Registration] , Medkit, Nanopaste Trodes, Purge [Copy Protection 5, Registration] , Reality Filter [Copy Protection 5, Registration] , Satellite Link, Scan [Copy Protection 5, Registration] , Simrig, Skinlink, Spare Clip x10, Stealth [Copy Protection 5, Registration] , Suite: Pro User [Analyze 4, Browse 4, Command 2, Edit 4] , Tag Eraser, Track [Copy Protection 5, Registration]

[Yerameyahu]

And I still don't see how that's at all relevant. You have to defend the idea that a hacker not needing logic is bad per se, not that it's possible to make a hacker without logic. First of all, we all already know that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You might as well say that any player who buys his PC Knowledge skills is 'ruining' the PC. Second, you could easily move some of those points you've placed in 'useless' things (skills, weapons, etc.) to boost Logic or get some 'ware to reshuffle his Attribs.

I dunno, Warlordtheft, it's not like Skill isn't half the DP. But yes, there are various ways to make Logic matter. Especially if you're not blinded by script-kiddie racism and the need to punish. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[thorya]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but doesn't that character have 640 BP in active skills alone? And you're upset that he's more powerful than a starting PC?

Yeah, a character built with what 800BP should be freaking awesome and should be better than any PC at Chargen.

I don't have unwired, so I'm not actually sure how his programs stack up, but I suspect based on what other people have said that a high logic hacker with software would be able to be him in the long run.

Edit: Oh, you listed all skills you could default on. Well, that's confusing.

[Yerameyahu]

No, the weird output he's using apparently includes Defaulted ratings. Those programs *do* all suck, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But it's just irrelevant either way: shock!, people can build good/bad characters? Adding logic would only change the character by a few BP (20-40, because who hard-caps?).

The actual point is that a hacker without logic is *not* significantly better than 'Herpa Derp'. The BP change is small, and he's not spending that extra BP efficiently to be a much better hacker (esp. constrained by chargen rules).

As a side issue: Logic 1 simply isn't that low. It's 1-2 dice lower than average, and Logic usually caps around 6-7 anyway (unlike Agility, Strength, or Body, which tend to go way above 6). Even if you used an optional/house rule to use Logic instead of Program, the 'moron/retard' hacker would only be a few dice behind. He'd definitely want to have more dice, but the difference wouldn't be crippling. It hardly seems worth all the disdain and passion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Warlordtheft]

I dunno, Warlordtheft, it's not like Skill isn't half the DP. But yes, there are various ways to make Logic matter. Especially if you're not blinded by script-kiddie racism and the need to punish. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I've been GMing SR4 for 3 years running now, did SR2 for 6, maybe 1 session of 3rd and 1st Ed probably played for 3 (basicall since SR came out). I have yet to kill a PC for munchkinism, though I'd add most of people I play(ed) with knew when they were crossing the line and took my suggestions.

In shadowrun, the thing to remember most is that buying agricultural real estate is dirt cheap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Agreed. My comment was meant to imply that 'you're one of the good ones'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Most rules issues are very subtle, but people get disproportionately worked up over them.

[Warlordtheft]

THe other area is that if you use SOTA on him he will be spending all of his hard earned cash trying to keep his programs up to date. A high logic character can speend his downtime easily updating his stuff.