Question about turning a magician into a vampire Options

[Neraph]

Absolutely Nothing for the Dietary Requirement Restriction...

Says where? Nutrition gives your body what it needs to survive - dietary requirement simply changes what you need to survive. The magic of Nutrition provides it regardless of what it is. The spell works equally well on herbivores, carnivores, vegans, and ghouls.

EDIT:

The critter must consume a certain type of unique substance at a regular interval to sustain its life.

The Nutrition spell provides a voluntary target with nourishment, allowing them to live off pure mana.

So basically if you don't eat whatever Dietary Requirement you have you die, but if you cast Nutrition you live.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Says where? Nutrition gives your body what it needs to survive - dietary requirement simply changes what you need to survive. The magic of Nutrition provides it regardless of what it is. The spell works equally well on herbivores, carnivores, vegans, and ghouls.

I Disagree... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Here is the relevant Text...

Studies suggest
that HMHVV-positive individuals must consume at least 1 percent of their body weight of appropriate biomaterial each week or begin to suffer the effects of malnutrition. This dietary requirement is due to a combination of natural and paranatural requirements: the physical digestive systems of the HMHVV infected are specialized or mutated by their transformation; vampires and banshees in particular lack most of the symbiotic bacteria that break down food and must subsist entirely on blood. All Infected show a distinct carnivorous preference in their diet.
In addition to these physical requirements, the peculiar Awakened nature of the Infected requires the living energies of a metahuman aura in their food for optimum health, and sometimes large influxes of mana siphoned directly from the aura of a living metahuman or other sapient creature; these are believed to be essential sustenance for the virus itself.

Sorry, but Pure Mana cannot satisfy this requirement.

[Neraph]

I Disagree... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You can disagree, but that's what the rules say.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You can disagree, but that's what the rules say.

No they do not... See my above Ninja Edit... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It is a Magical Effect, That I do not agree allows Magic to bypass. Even Regeneration does not help. If you do not consume your requisite meat/blood, you will eventually atrophy and die. Simple as that. If a simple spell would solve the issue, it would already be solved, rather than Megacorps expending Billions of dollars trying to develop ANOTHER SPELL to turn animal meat into a viable substitute.

[Yerameyahu]

Exactly: RAW doesn't matter if it's wrong.

[darthmord]

Exactly: RAW doesn't matter if it's wrong.

Actually, RAW does matter even if it is wrong.

If RAW *IS* wrong, then it needs errata to make it right.

As for what Neraph is suggesting, per RAW the spell takes take of the consumption portion of the dietary requirement (that being the flesh or blood requirement). The Essence portion however is still not covered. There is no prior example of raw Mana taking the place of Essence for anything. If it were, the spell would be horribly unbalancing.

I am also of the opinion that many of the source books need some revision (along with the main book) to ensure that all the additions are in-line with the core rules and that the core rules have adjustments made to ensure any addons do not make things unbalanced or wonky.

[Yerameyahu]

Errata is needed, but not necessary. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) We know from all the fluff that Infected requirements are a pressing and unsolved issue, so a simple spell can't do it. Until there's errata, there's no need to deliberately hurt yourself instead of just houseruling the fix. This is the case whenever the RAW is wrong.

[Neraph]

No they do not... See my above Ninja Edit... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It is a Magical Effect, That I do not agree allows Magic to bypass. Even Regeneration does not help. If you do not consume your requisite meat/blood, you will eventually atrophy and die. Simple as that. If a simple spell would solve the issue, it would already be solved, rather than Megacorps expending Billions of dollars trying to develop ANOTHER SPELL to turn animal meat into a viable substitute.

Quote all the fluff in the world you want, the RAW is what matters, and the RAW allows it. Go look at the RAW for the Weakness and then the RAW for the spell (hint: I provided them for you just a few posts ago) - there is nothing about some intangible spiritual necessity for the Dietary Requirement; in fact, in places the fluff is wrong (like how much the Infected need to consume for their Requirement) - you need only concern yourself with the actual rules.

Actually, RAW does matter even if it is wrong.

If RAW *IS* wrong, then it needs errata to make it right.

As for what Neraph is suggesting, per RAW the spell takes take of the consumption portion of the dietary requirement (that being the flesh or blood requirement). The Essence portion however is still not covered. There is no prior example of raw Mana taking the place of Essence for anything. If it were, the spell would be horribly unbalancing.

I am also of the opinion that many of the source books need some revision (along with the main book) to ensure that all the additions are in-line with the core rules and that the core rules have adjustments made to ensure any addons do not make things unbalanced or wonky.

There is no Essence requirement for Dietary Requirement. There is only an Essence requirement if you happen to have the Essence Loss weakness. Dietary Requirement is something altogether different, and as I've mentioned it works exactly as I've said it does.

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The RAW is not what matters. It just means the writers screwed up (shock!).

[Neraph]

Until it is Errata'd it is a Rule As Written. Until such a time as the fabric of the game is changed to disallow it, it is perfectly legal.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't recall saying otherwise. I said that RAW doesn't *matter* when it's wrong (which, as you know, is relatively often). If there were a typo in the RAW that gave PCs 4000BP instead of 400, it wouldn't make it okay; if some writer snuck in a line that said all humans can fly like Superman, it'd still be incorrect. The book is riddled with broken rules, and that doesn't mean anyone has to actually follow them.

Removing the vampire sunlight weakness as an Allergy is only slightly less bad, while we're at it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[snowRaven]

The kicker here is if you consider the stuff in the dietary requirement as nourishment. It's a weakness, after all - the creature needs token amounts of some substance, often in addition to normal food, to survive.

Nutrition only provides the body with nourishment, not whatever else it may need.

If you injected a being with a poison that required you eat a certain substance every 4 hours or die, would you say Nutrition let's that person live, just because it allows him to live off of pure mana? I don't.

Until it is Errata'd it is a Rule As Written. Until such a time as the fabric of the game is changed to disallow it, it is perfectly legal.

Straight from Dietary Requirement: "Without the specified requirement in its diet, the critter eventually sickens and dies."

Note how it doesn't say 'starve' without it -

Nutrition: "This spell prevents starvation and dehydration, but it does have its down side" - not becoming sick.

So by RAW, you are wrong.

[Irion]

Infected are like the free spirit gaining 200 Karma a week. The rules suggest it is possible but the rules just fail at this point. Totally!

Nobody has anybody though of PC spirits using Karma Pacts (I guess nobody even though what gaining Karma via pact actually gives the free spirit...)

And the infected and there way of handeling essence loos was never thought about either. (Or they wouldn't have to write special rules for them! With which they can now take ware and without loss of magic.)

[Sengir]

Says where? Nutrition gives your body what it needs to survive

Maybe you should read the rules you yourself quoted again: Nutrition provides nourishment but it is not described as providing oxygen, vital medication, or any other "certain type of unique substance" which an individual might need to survive.

[Patrick Goodman]

True. A good House-Rule would be to give a new vampire one hour to get his Essence up to where it needs to be. The Test is with like a 1 minute interval, so 1 hour is more than enough time to feed.

Better house rule: No vampire PCs. It's really not worth it.

[Patrick Goodman]

EDIT: I just thought of this. Seeing as not all of the Infected are Born-Infected, which means that the infected quality typically would mean you were transformed, why does Starting as an infected character have a different stat adjustment than getting infected during play? That is either wrong (Pretty likely), or in definite need of a houserule if that IS how it works by RAW.

Personal opinion here, and not that of Catalyst Game Labs or anyone who wrote that stuff: They're different because the whole cockamamie idea wasn't thought out very clearly from the conception phase all the way through to publication. Vampires, et al, in Shadowrun are just a bad idea as a PC concept, and writing rules for them just gives you weak vampires that have too much potential for sparkling and overt emo angst.

Stupid idea that should never have seen the light of day (pun intended).

[Draco18s]

In addition to these physical requirements, the peculiar Awakened nature of the Infected requires the living energies of a metahuman aura in their food for optimum health, and sometimes large influxes of mana siphoned directly from the aura of a living metahuman or other sapient creature; these are believed to be essential sustenance for the virus itself.

Sorry, but Pure Mana cannot satisfy this requirement.

Wait, what?

"Pure mana" doesn't satisfy a "pure mana" dietary requirement?

[Patrick Goodman]

Quote all the fluff in the world you want, the RAW is what matters, and the RAW allows it. Go look at the RAW for the Weakness and then the RAW for the spell (hint: I provided them for you just a few posts ago) - there is nothing about some intangible spiritual necessity for the Dietary Requirement; in fact, in places the fluff is wrong (like how much the Infected need to consume for their Requirement) - you need only concern yourself with the actual rules.

Let's play nice, please, boys.

And while RAW might support it, that's one of those things that I submitted errata for a while back. I don't believe a Nutrition spell can deal with the Dietary Requirement. Of course, I want to nerf Alleviate Allergy for the Infected, too, but can't come up with a good, logical way to do it without nerfing the spell for everyone. I'm probably just going to have to live with it.

Granted, Jason and I haven't had that discussion about Nutrition yet, but it will be coming up. There might be perfectly acceptable and logical reasons for it to work. We'll see.

[Neraph]

Let's play nice, please, boys.

And while RAW might support it, that's one of those things that I submitted errata for a while back. I don't believe a Nutrition spell can deal with the Dietary Requirement. Of course, I want to nerf Alleviate Allergy for the Infected, too, but can't come up with a good, logical way to do it without nerfing the spell for everyone. I'm probably just going to have to live with it.

Granted, Jason and I haven't had that discussion about Nutrition yet, but it will be coming up. There might be perfectly acceptable and logical reasons for it to work. We'll see.

Thank you for the neutral-stanced alternative opinion.

[Neraph]

Also, the corps are looking for a mass-marketed version of "food" for the Infected. Nutrition is not that at all - you need an Awakened individual that knows the spell. Trying to feed Infected with that spell would look like something from soup kitchens or low-income ER rooms; you'd have lines of Infected waiting while a few exhausted individuals attempt to make the demand.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Also, the corps are looking for a mass-marketed version of "food" for the Infected. Nutrition is not that at all - you need an Awakened individual that knows the spell. Trying to feed Infected with that spell would look like something from soup kitchens or low-income ER rooms; you'd have lines of Infected waiting while a few exhausted individuals attempt to make the demand.

No different than the mages needed to convert animal meat to "Infected Quality" Meat, since the Mega's are currently researching a Spell for that purpose... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I think most people just would have expected the sections that go on about the problem to mention something simple like, 'Nutrition works, but that's not good enough'. It's the convergence of balance, fluff, and theme. I don't think anyone's saying the rules clearly say it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Elfenlied]

Wow, Infected seem to be a pretty controversial topic on this board. What warrants such hostility? The flavor or the crunch?

Personally, I've both played and DMed for Vampire PCs, and didn't get the impression that they were particularly overpowered. They have a couple of useful powers and good stat boosts, but their inability to use 'ware cripples them as Adepts, and they're about on par with Elven mages in the Drain department. Softmax magic for them is 4 compared to 5 for other races. Mist Form doesn't allow you to carry along equipment, and Regeneration is a joke in the current edition, easily bypassed by combat magic, called shots and brute force.

As for flavor, YMMV. The whole virus thing doesn't sit well with some people, while others think that Real Vampires^TM are supposed to immolate in sunlight, which Stoker style Vampires don't actually do. And then there are those saying that such a fantasy race doesn't belong in a Cyberpunk RPG, conveniently neglecting to mention Elves, Dwarfs, Orcs and Trolls.

Point is: Every group needs to decide for themself what they feel comfortable with at their table. The rules, ideally, should provide a framework to work with and support a versimilitude of playstyles. The freedom of choice is the most significant thing separating a tabletop RPG from a videogame RPG; everyone should embrace and accept it instead of telling other people on the internet that they're "doing it wrong".

Opinions are like nipples. Everyone has one. Mine is that vampires are fine as PCs.

[Yerameyahu]

Most people, I find, say things along the lines of 'We don't use X' or 'I don't like X' or 'My opinion is X'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So it's not really a question of telling other people they're doing it wrong. It's also usually a question of 'should they be PCs?', not 'should they exist?'.

In my experience, the balance issues usually are the relevant ones. In this thread specifically, we were discussing the idea that the single biggest limitation could be trivially avoided by casting a spell; this is typical (ghoul cosmetic surgery, Alleviate Allergy, etc.). It's easy to see why people dislike this.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wow, Infected seem to be a pretty controversial topic on this board. What warrants such hostility? The flavor or the crunch?

Personally, I've both played and DMed for Vampire PCs, and didn't get the impression that they were particularly overpowered. They have a couple of useful powers and good stat boosts, but their inability to use 'ware cripples them as Adepts, and they're about on par with Elven mages in the Drain department. Softmax magic for them is 4 compared to 5 for other races. Mist Form doesn't allow you to carry along equipment, and Regeneration is a joke in the current edition, easily bypassed by combat magic, called shots and brute force.

As for flavor, YMMV. The whole virus thing doesn't sit well with some people, while others think that Real Vampires^TM are supposed to immolate in sunlight, which Stoker style Vampires don't actually do. And then there are those saying that such a fantasy race doesn't belong in a Cyberpunk RPG, conveniently neglecting to mention Elves, Dwarfs, Orcs and Trolls.

Point is: Every group needs to decide for themself what they feel comfortable with at their table. The rules, ideally, should provide a framework to work with and support a versimilitude of playstyles. The freedom of choice is the most significant thing separating a tabletop RPG from a videogame RPG; everyone should embrace and accept it instead of telling other people on the internet that they're "doing it wrong".

Opinions are like nipples. Everyone has one. Mine is that vampires are fine as PCs.

Talk to Neraph. He can show you why the majority of other people dislike Vampires. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
The fact that their magic is variable, and is capable of hitting 2 Digits the moment they leave Chargen (and can keep it there trivially, especially with the ability to eliminate Allergies and possibly (as some have argued) eliminate their need to adhere to their dietary requirement) is a big factor, I think.