Eliminating armor stacking for FFBA?, How would this house rule effect a game? Options

[Knight Saber]

I'm getting ready to run a SR20A game for a few friends, lightly experienced in Shadowrun (and my first time GMing it). I was thinking about eliminating the rules for stacking Form Fitting Body Armor with other armor types. Mainly to keep things simple and not have to have the armor stacking seem mandatory... since it provides a benefit nothing else does. Any unforseen consequences to this, or balance issues?

Also, no Stick & Shock. Use a taser or gel rounds.

[Draco18s]

Repercussions? Likely none.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

I don't like Stick n Shock and most GMs complain that Grenades are too cheap. You need to keep in mind that these are mundane forms of Aoe/Crowd Control/Debuffing etc which a Street Samurai or Adept has very little access to and having them in the game helps balance out Tech vs Magic. When you put it that way 35 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per "ghetto powerball" isn't too bad and the Stick n Shock rounds look a little less cheesy (still super cheesy).

Don't eliminate Stick n Shock entirely. Restrict it to Shotguns only. Longarms as a weapons skill is pretty lacking compared to Automatics and allowing Stick n Shock to be loaded into Shotguns (a weapon which takes a DV hit for Stick n Shock as well as having a more restrictive range) it levels the playing field of both the Skill and the Ammunition.

This is something which works well in my experience. Makes shotguns more worthwhile, allows Sams/Adepts to take advantage of the Shock debuff associated with the Stick n Shock rounds, and makes Gel Rounds actually make an appearance in all of the other forms of weaponry.

As far as getting rid of FFBA I've run in games that have had two different solutions:
1. Getting rid of FFBA entirely.
3. Entirely removing the encumberance of FFBA, but FFBA doesn't stack. Essentially this ruling is put into place so that FFBA's entire purpose is when someone takes a called shot to ignore armor you resist with nothing but FFBA. This sounds neat in theory but it never actually came up.

I would get rid of it entirely personally. Game works better without it in my opinion.

[Funkelzahn]

In my games I've ruled that one can only wear one kind of 'under armour'. So for example you couldn't wear FFBA and the concealable securetech ensemble, you could still wear your armor and FFBA and the securetech ensemble but the latter would have to be the obvious kind. It doesn't really eliminate the stacking but it makes it a little less cheesy in my opinion.

As far as stick n shock goes I've ruled that the rounds don't provide enough power to cycle the action of a weapon, thus any weapon loaded with SnS can only fire at the single shot rate of fire. This makes them still useful but eliminates the cheese of hosing down spirits with barrages of SnS (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

Just remember that the game as officially printed is largely balanced already. By changing anything you risk changing the balance of the game. Most often I find that "game balance" is less about actual mechanics and more about tactics; worded another way, when people complain about something being "unbalanced" they tend more to be upset with a tactic they didn't think of/prepare for rather than the existence of something. For armor stacking (FFBA/PPP/Armor) this means that people will usually take less damage, but all that damage they do take is stun. More than likely they have 10 boxes of stun and maybe 11 or higher physical. This is actually a bad thing because all that unsoaked damage is going to their weaker hitbox - they'll get knocked out from stun long before they break a bone, and even then if you get tazed with an armor vest that has R6 Nonconductivity you end up gaining armor out of it - my point being that armor stacking or no, a smart player will use tactics to their advantage.

If anything I'd make the following house-rules:
1) Body + Strength for maximum armor, not Body x 2.
2) Indirect Combat Spells Drain Codes are lowered by 4, Direct Combat Spells Drain Codes are increased by 4.

This stops Str from being a dumpstat and changes Stunbolt from being waaaay cooler than SnS. I really don't see any problem with SnS at all.

[Psikerlord]

to the OP: we banned PPP and FFBA and SnS ammo in our game, and I think it helps keep things balanced.

A few other house rules you might consider: (i) task and guardian spirits can't get extra skills beyond what their summoner knows (avoids skill monkey spirits - mages are such great swiss army knives already), (ii) No Restricted Gear quality, (iii) No possession mages for PCs, (iv) No empathy software, (v) sprite power diagnostics limited to non-combat devices only (no sprites adding 6 dice to everyone's guns). We have a few other house rules but those are our main ones.

[FriendoftheDork]

Just remember that the game as officially printed is largely balanced already. By changing anything you risk changing the balance of the game. Most often I find that "game balance" is less about actual mechanics and more about tactics; worded another way, when people complain about something being "unbalanced" they tend more to be upset with a tactic they didn't think of/prepare for rather than the existence of something. For armor stacking (FFBA/PPP/Armor) this means that people will usually take less damage, but all that damage they do take is stun. More than likely they have 10 boxes of stun and maybe 11 or higher physical. This is actually a bad thing because all that unsoaked damage is going to their weaker hitbox - they'll get knocked out from stun long before they break a bone, and even then if you get tazed with an armor vest that has R6 Nonconductivity you end up gaining armor out of it - my point being that armor stacking or no, a smart player will use tactics to their advantage.

If anything I'd make the following house-rules:
1) Body + Strength for maximum armor, not Body x 2.
2) Indirect Combat Spells Drain Codes are lowered by 4, Direct Combat Spells Drain Codes are increased by 4.

This stops Str from being a dumpstat and changes Stunbolt from being waaaay cooler than SnS. I really don't see any problem with SnS at all.

That was true when we only had SR4 book. When they introduced Street Magic, Arsenal, Augmentation etc. they risked upsetting that balance. Game balance has little to do with tactics, getting a piece of equipment simply because it is better than you would think, does not equal tactics. Using a rifle to snipe enemies from a well-hidden position is good tactics. And that can be done easily by just a sporting rifle. Now if the Barret sniper rifle was just as easy to get and use, then it would be unbalanced. It's not, so it isn't. Is there really a justification that FFBA is necessary to compensate for anything? Or is it just everyone gets better armor more easily?

I kinda like the Str+bod for max armor though.

[UmaroVI]

Just remember that the game as officially printed is largely balanced already.

I lol'd.

OP: do you mean that you want FFBA to count half for encumbrance, but no longer be wearable with other single armor pieces? EG, you can wear FFBA and a helmet, and bet at 4/3 for encumbrance and 7/4 total, but you can't wear FFBA and an armor vest?

This is a dumb idea because FFBA is still really good, and what you wind up with is people wearing really odd outfits like FFBA+PPP+Helmet+Ballistic Mask+Threaded Moonsilver Line Scarf. It also means that the value of Body has a sharp cutoff value at whatever you need to wear all that, and then a "dead zone" where you can't actually wear any more armor. This isn't good.

What do you actually want to do? If you just ban FFBA, what it does is make Body and other sources of armor more valuable and lower everyone's armor by 3/1. This makes AP -half effects and armor ignoring effects relatively worse, and regular physical attacks relatively better.

[FriendoftheDork]

I lol'd.

OP: do you mean that you want FFBA to count half for encumbrance, but no longer be wearable with other single armor pieces? EG, you can wear FFBA and a helmet, and bet at 4/3 for encumbrance and 7/4 total, but you can't wear FFBA and an armor vest?

This is a dumb idea because FFBA is still really good, and what you wind up with is people wearing really odd outfits like FFBA+PPP+Helmet+Ballistic Mask+Threaded Moonsilver Line Scarf. It also means that the value of Body has a sharp cutoff value at whatever you need to wear all that, and then a "dead zone" where you can't actually wear any more armor. This isn't good.

What do you actually want to do? If you just ban FFBA, what it does is make Body and other sources of armor more valuable and lower everyone's armor by 3/1. This makes AP -half effects and armor ignoring effects relatively worse, and regular physical attacks relatively better.

It doesn't lower everybody's armor, it is FFBA that increases the armor of runners with access to Arsenal. Some players don't think they should need to open the other books, and I don't think they should need to either. Simply banning FFBA and Securepoint armor sets everyone back to square one. Essentially, if it is back to primary armor+helmet+magic or cyber. Enough IMHO. Normal weapons are already too weak.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Normal weapons are already too weak.

I actually laughed out loud at this one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[UmaroVI]

It doesn't lower everybody's armor, it is FFBA that increases the armor of runners with access to Arsenal.

I didn't get my hair cut, I got my ears lowered!

[Angelone]

It would make a lethal system even more lethal, PCs would be taking Physical more often than Stun.

[FriendoftheDork]

I actually laughed out loud at this one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Laugh all you want. If you think your runners can make do with light pistols against armor jacket, FFBA, Securetech, cyberlimb armor and dermal armor, they won't be.


FFBA is completely unnecessary. The core rules were not designed with it in mind. It's not removing FFBA that lowers armor all around, it is allowing it that means that those who use it will get tougher than they should be. And that is not everyone.

[Tanegar]

The fact that your players are choosing to use weak weapons does not mean that all weapons are weak.

[FriendoftheDork]

The fact that your players are choosing to use weak weapons does not mean that all weapons are weak.

I never said all weapons are weak. I said normal weapons. With that I meant what normal enemies use - which includes light and heavy pistols, SMGs (not firing S&D), melee weapons.... you know normal weapons.

Not super modded machineguns with EX-EX or APDS ammo firing Full auto bursts at 0 recoil, not Force 10+ spirits using elemental attacks, and not Gauss rifles and Barret sniper rifles. Normal weapons.

In most games I've played, Runners do just fine with between 8-16 armor.

[Yerameyahu]

Agreed.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

I never said all weapons are weak. I said normal weapons. With that I meant what normal enemies use - which includes light and heavy pistols, SMGs (not firing S&D), melee weapons.... you know normal weapons.

Not super modded machineguns with EX-EX or APDS ammo firing Full auto bursts at 0 recoil, not Force 10+ spirits using elemental attacks, and not Gauss rifles and Barret sniper rifles. Normal weapons.

In most games I've played, Runners do just fine with between 8-16 armor.

And all those "super modded machineguns" etc are supposed to tear through Armor. They're supposed to represent a new and interesting challenge being added to the battlefield and merit a change in tactics. If you allow armor stacking to obscene levels then you just make this "another encounter with dudes who have guns."

Fighting mages from different traditions or who have different assortments of spells is supposed to feel different (which it does) and provoke the team to think about how to tackle the situation (which they do). Armor should not be allowed to stack to such asinine levels that the same feel and response cannot be achieved by any given encounter with mundanes packing heat. Thugs with shotguns ought to play out very differently than a strike team with machinegun or sniper support. Having so much armor that "I stand in the middle and shoot till they're all dead" is a viable option for everything is a bummer, cutting back on armor stacking avoids this.

[FriendoftheDork]

And all those "super modded machineguns" etc are supposed to tear through Armor. They're supposed to represent a new and interesting challenge being added to the battlefield and merit a change in tactics. If you allow armor stacking to obscene levels then you just make this "another encounter with dudes who have guns."

Fighting mages from different traditions or who have different assortments of spells is supposed to feel different (which it does) and provoke the team to think about how to tackle the situation (which they do). Armor should not be allowed to stack to such asinine levels that the same feel and response cannot be achieved by any given encounter with mundanes packing heat. Thugs with shotguns ought to play out very differently than a strike team with machinegun or sniper support. Having so much armor that "I stand in the middle and shoot till they're all dead" is a viable option for everything is a bummer, cutting back on armor stacking avoids this.

Uhm... wat? Are you agreeing? You made it sound as if I was defending FFBA.

As for the "stand being shot at" method that only happened once in my old campaign. It was fairly epic, seeing a huge troll with as much armor and cyber as he could stack on using only the core (SR4) rulebook soaking off multitudes of gangers firing at him with pistols, smgs, shotguns all at the same time. At the time the fight was over poor Trog had only 1 stun box left....

Any other character in said group would have been taken down much earlier.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

Uhm... wat? Are you agreeing? You made it sound as if I was defending FFBA.

As for the "stand being shot at" method that only happened once in my old campaign. It was fairly epic, seeing a huge troll with as much armor and cyber as he could stack on using only the core (SR4) rulebook soaking off multitudes of gangers firing at him with pistols, smgs, shotguns all at the same time. At the time the fight was over poor Trog had only 1 stun box left....

Any other character in said group would have been taken down much earlier.

I was agreeing. That's why I started my post with "And."

I was continuing your rant with one of my own. Musnt let these things lose steam!

And if that Troll had FFBA as well he could have done that same firefight quite casually, while enjoying a tasty meatball sub with his off-hand.

[StConstantine]

Don't eliminate Stick n Shock entirely. Restrict it to Shotguns only. Longarms as a weapons skill is pretty lacking compared to Automatics and allowing Stick n Shock to be loaded into Shotguns (a weapon which takes a DV hit for Stick n Shock as well as having a more restrictive range) it levels the playing field of both the Skill and the Ammunition.

Def will use this idea, makes so much more sense, and i really hate the idea of using a SnS round in a sniper rifle and hitting someone from a kilometer away.

[Thanee]

In most games I've played, Runners do just fine with between 8-16 armor.

Certainly.


16 armor is supposed to be A LOT already. That's in the realms of what soldiers wear to war.

16 armor is what a heavily armored VEHICLE has.

It is way too easy in SR4 to get to such levels of armor as a person.

Dropping FFBA and PPP completely (along with SynthWeave) is certainly a step into the right direction (a step away from the arms-armor-spiral).

Bye
Thanee

[Psikerlord]

I agree completely Thanee

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Laugh all you want. If you think your runners can make do with light pistols against armor jacket, FFBA, Securetech, cyberlimb armor and dermal armor, they won't be.


FFBA is completely unnecessary. The core rules were not designed with it in mind. It's not removing FFBA that lowers armor all around, it is allowing it that means that those who use it will get tougher than they should be. And that is not everyone.

And yet I eliminate more opposition WITH A LIGHT PISTOL than any other weapon. Which is why I laughed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I never said all weapons are weak. I said normal weapons. With that I meant what normal enemies use - which includes light and heavy pistols, SMGs (not firing S&D), melee weapons.... you know normal weapons.

Not super modded machineguns with EX-EX or APDS ammo firing Full auto bursts at 0 recoil, not Force 10+ spirits using elemental attacks, and not Gauss rifles and Barret sniper rifles. Normal weapons.

In most games I've played, Runners do just fine with between 8-16 armor.

I do agree with this. My characters tend to actually fall somewhere between the 6-12 Mark, actually.

[Draco18s]

I do agree with this. My characters tend to actually fall somewhere between the 6-12 Mark, actually.

Same. My lowest was 0-4 once (unarmored drake: 0 in human, 4 in drake). For more rational choiced characters, I usually end up 8-12.