Martial arts, maneuvers, and karma, wha...? Options

[Smiley]

OK, first of all, bear with me. It's 4 am and i'm fading fast.

Now then. Martial arts come with 9 maneuvers and it looks to me like you can learn one for every 2 skill points you have in that martial art. Does this mean you must have a martial art skill at 18 just to get all the maneuvers? And what about learning maneuvers with, say, edged weapons like in pentjak-silat or ninjutsu? It looks to me like Cannon Companion is telling me that to get all that, i could concievably need a skill of 36. 18 for the basic maeuvers and 18 to be able to use them with edged weapons. If so, DAMN.

[Mimick]

I'd say you're probably right, though I personally wouldn't bother to learn all the maneuvers for each martial art, just the ones I found to be most useful. (but damn, a skill of 18 to completely master your chosen martial art is still utterly ridiculous, it just has to be a total game balance thing - though ever since I bought the book years ago I've held that the martial arts rules just suck in general)

[Arethusa]

You can buy additional maneuvers past your skill level, but karma costs are quadrupled, for a total of 8 karma for every additional maneuver past half your skill level, rounded down.

Crazy, you say? Damn straight.

In fact, it is complete bullshit, but a simple houserule of allowing one maneuver per skill level fixes it right up.

[mfb]

you only need 9 points in a martial arts skill to completely master its unarmed maneuvers; the extra maneuvers will cost 72 karma. obviously, learning the armed versions will cost more karma and require a higher skill.

[Raptor1033]

i just don't like how you have to buy a manuever for the martial art before buying it for a weapon skill. why can't you know how to use it with your weapon but be clueless when unarmed? damnit i want whirling for my handrazors without spending 10 karma on it!

[Moon-Hawk]

I can see the rationale behind that one. If you can't even make your body do the maneuver, how can you hope to get your body and weapon working together to do the maneuver?
There will be certain maneuvers that this rationale does not apply as well to, of course, but it works in general and is probably made universal for the sake of simplicity.

[mfb]

i think it's more a matter of what you're learning. if i take kung fu, and learn Focus Strength with edge weapons, i'm not improving my edge weapons technique--i'm learning to apply my knowledge of kung fu to my edge weapons skill. it's basically analogous to complementary skills.

[Dashifen]

I've played with house rules that say this: if your melee weapon skill is greater than your martial arts skill then you can apply your weapon to your martial art.

So, a character with Edged Weapons 5 and Kung Fu 4 can use his sword with his Kung Fu skills, but will be rolling only 4 dice. However, you're doing physical damage which you may not be doing when using Kung Fu without the sword and you might have a reach bonus. Not that Edged Weapons 4, Kung Fu 4 means you can't use the sword with your martial art (yet).

The question that this brought up for me was this: what's the point? If I can roll 5 dice with the sword and 4 dice for kung fu with the sword then there isn't really a point other than using the manuevers to using the kung fu option. Any thoguhts?

EDIT: Just thought of this, too: if you raised your kung fu from 4 to 5 you suddenly couldn't use your sword with your kung fu anymore. Does this make sense to any martial artist out there? Would you focus on learning unarmed techniques impact your previously existent ability to use armed techniques?

This post has been edited by Dashifen: Apr 13 2004, 04:04 PM

[Smiley]

[A Clockwork Lime]

The solution we have is pretty simple. There are no Martial Arts skills. Unarmed Combat is used when unarmed, and Melee Skills are used with melee weapons. Unarmed Combat can be specialized for use with a specific Maneuver or Combat Option (Called Shots, Subduing, etc). Maneuvers can then be purchased for any of these skills at the standard costs (and are free at character creation, up to one-half your initial skill level). You then tailor your character towards whatever martial art style he prefers.

A character who practices Aikido would likely have Unarmed Combat (Subduing) with the Throw maneuver as his primary skill focus, while someone who practices Fencing might have little more than Edged Weapons (Swords) and various maneuvers thereof.

Why they didn't do it like that to begin with, and then list some samples of how to tailor a character to a specific art, is beyond me.

[Cain]

Actually, it's a little easier than all that. You learn a martial art to level 8, and learn 4 maneuvers. You then pick up a bit of another art-- say, level 2-- and learn one maneuver. Repeat as needed with other maneuvers.

[Zazen]

I let people buy maneuvers for weapon skills at 4 karma each, effectively the same as doing the martial arts trick with fewer limitations and no extraneous training in unarmed combat. No more than half your skill or the price goes up.

[Lilt]

What do people thing of this scenario:

Kung-Fu 2 (Blind Fighting, Blind Fighting with Edged Weapons)
Pentjak-Silat 2 (Whirling, Whirling with Edged Weapons)
Arnis De Mano 2 (Multi-Strike, Multi-Strike with Edged Weapons)
Edged Weapons 6

Essentially: With this setup could you use Blind-Fighting with either Multi-Strike or Whirling?

[aside]I chose to go with the other skills at 2 as it's cheaper to buy the 2nd at 8 than the skill from 2 to 4 (4 + 6 + 2 = 12 karma, 4 more than just buying the maneuver)[/aside]

[A Clockwork Lime]

You can only use one Maneuver or Combat Option at any given time unless specifically stated otherwise.

[Lilt]

It is stated under blind fighting that it can be used with any other combat option, the question is wether or not applying 2 maneuvers from different arts to a single action is valid.

[Smiley]

Probably not, since they're still maneuvers and it does say that you can only use one at any given time unless otherwise stated. The fact that they come from different martial arts styles is irrelevant.

[Moonstone Spider]

Really they just need maneuvers for the other skills besides martial arts. Maneuvers for edged weapons, maneuvers for pole arms, even for everything else too.

For instance "Maneuvers" for chemistry could be specific formulas you know, thus "Cram" "Kamikaze" and "Jazz" would be chemistry maneuvers enabling you to make those specific drugs more easily.

[LaughingTiger]

[A Clockwork Lime]

Who says it disappears? Defaulting is an oft-shuddered upon concept by a lot of people around here, but it's the entire point of these things. The only change we've made to those rules is that Unarmed Combat can be defaulted to or from most Melee Weapon Skills as if it were a specialization (+3 instead of +2).

So say you're a fencer who only took Edged Weapons 6 (Evasion, Herding, and Zoning). Your opponent successfully disarms you, leaving you weaponless. You now have the option to continue to engage in the fight (dumb as it may be, considering he did just disarm you), with full access to all of your maneuvers, albeit with a +3 modifier for defaulting to Edged Weapons. Alternatively, you could break a leg off of a nearby stool and start swinging it around, gaining the same benefits but with a +2 modifier since it's close to what you originally learned.

If a character gets their ass handed to them often enough, they can start learning Unarmed Combat or other skills. It still costs them 2 Karma to apply a maneuver to that new style of combat, but they also still have the option of defaulting to the original skill if they absolutely have to to perform a given maneuver since they haven't learned how to apply it correctly to their new style of combat. But once they do, that penalty disappears.

[mfb]

ah, hm. seem to have posted to the wrong thread. odd.

[Dashifen]

[Tziluthi]

The CC martial art rules are pretty ridiculous. It was a pretty poor attempt to introduce MA into the game, especially considering that it was in a canon source. Clockwork's suggestion, to use unarmed combat, with a specialty, as a replacement for martial arts (as opposed to the other way around) seems like a solid idea.

[Solstice]

[Cain]

[LaughingTiger]