OK, first of all, bear with me. It's 4 am and i'm fading fast.
Now then. Martial arts come with 9 maneuvers and it looks to me like you can learn one for every 2 skill points you have in that martial art. Does this mean you must have a martial art skill at 18 just to get all the maneuvers? And what about learning maneuvers with, say, edged weapons like in pentjak-silat or ninjutsu? It looks to me like Cannon Companion is telling me that to get all that, i could concievably need a skill of 36. 18 for the basic maeuvers and 18 to be able to use them with edged weapons. If so, DAMN.
Full Version: Martial arts, maneuvers, and karma
I'd say you're probably right, though I personally wouldn't bother to learn all the maneuvers for each martial art, just the ones I found to be most useful. (but damn, a skill of 18 to completely master your chosen martial art is still utterly ridiculous, it just has to be a total game balance thing - though ever since I bought the book years ago I've held that the martial arts rules just suck in general)
You can buy additional maneuvers past your skill level, but karma costs are quadrupled, for a total of 8 karma for every additional maneuver past half your skill level, rounded down.
Crazy, you say? Damn straight.
In fact, it is complete bullshit, but a simple houserule of allowing one maneuver per skill level fixes it right up.
Crazy, you say? Damn straight.
In fact, it is complete bullshit, but a simple houserule of allowing one maneuver per skill level fixes it right up.
you only need 9 points in a martial arts skill to completely master its unarmed maneuvers; the extra maneuvers will cost 72 karma. obviously, learning the armed versions will cost more karma and require a higher skill.
i just don't like how you have to buy a manuever for the martial art before buying it for a weapon skill. why can't you know how to use it with your weapon but be clueless when unarmed? damnit i want whirling for my handrazors without spending 10 karma on it!
I can see the rationale behind that one. If you can't even make your body do the maneuver, how can you hope to get your body and weapon working together to do the maneuver?
There will be certain maneuvers that this rationale does not apply as well to, of course, but it works in general and is probably made universal for the sake of simplicity.
There will be certain maneuvers that this rationale does not apply as well to, of course, but it works in general and is probably made universal for the sake of simplicity.
i think it's more a matter of what you're learning. if i take kung fu, and learn Focus Strength with edge weapons, i'm not improving my edge weapons technique--i'm learning to apply my knowledge of kung fu to my edge weapons skill. it's basically analogous to complementary skills.
I've played with house rules that say this: if your melee weapon skill is greater than your martial arts skill then you can apply your weapon to your martial art.
So, a character with Edged Weapons 5 and Kung Fu 4 can use his sword with his Kung Fu skills, but will be rolling only 4 dice. However, you're doing physical damage which you may not be doing when using Kung Fu without the sword and you might have a reach bonus. Not that Edged Weapons 4, Kung Fu 4 means you can't use the sword with your martial art (yet).
The question that this brought up for me was this: what's the point? If I can roll 5 dice with the sword and 4 dice for kung fu with the sword then there isn't really a point other than using the manuevers to using the kung fu option. Any thoguhts?
EDIT: Just thought of this, too: if you raised your kung fu from 4 to 5 you suddenly couldn't use your sword with your kung fu anymore. Does this make sense to any martial artist out there? Would you focus on learning unarmed techniques impact your previously existent ability to use armed techniques?
So, a character with Edged Weapons 5 and Kung Fu 4 can use his sword with his Kung Fu skills, but will be rolling only 4 dice. However, you're doing physical damage which you may not be doing when using Kung Fu without the sword and you might have a reach bonus. Not that Edged Weapons 4, Kung Fu 4 means you can't use the sword with your martial art (yet).
The question that this brought up for me was this: what's the point? If I can roll 5 dice with the sword and 4 dice for kung fu with the sword then there isn't really a point other than using the manuevers to using the kung fu option. Any thoguhts?
EDIT: Just thought of this, too: if you raised your kung fu from 4 to 5 you suddenly couldn't use your sword with your kung fu anymore. Does this make sense to any martial artist out there? Would you focus on learning unarmed techniques impact your previously existent ability to use armed techniques?
| QUOTE (Dashifen) |
| I've played with house rules that say this: if your melee weapon skill is greater than your martial arts skill then you can apply your weapon to your martial art. |
This idea has some serious potential...
The solution we have is pretty simple. There are no Martial Arts skills. Unarmed Combat is used when unarmed, and Melee Skills are used with melee weapons. Unarmed Combat can be specialized for use with a specific Maneuver or Combat Option (Called Shots, Subduing, etc). Maneuvers can then be purchased for any of these skills at the standard costs (and are free at character creation, up to one-half your initial skill level). You then tailor your character towards whatever martial art style he prefers.
A character who practices Aikido would likely have Unarmed Combat (Subduing) with the Throw maneuver as his primary skill focus, while someone who practices Fencing might have little more than Edged Weapons (Swords) and various maneuvers thereof.
Why they didn't do it like that to begin with, and then list some samples of how to tailor a character to a specific art, is beyond me.
A character who practices Aikido would likely have Unarmed Combat (Subduing) with the Throw maneuver as his primary skill focus, while someone who practices Fencing might have little more than Edged Weapons (Swords) and various maneuvers thereof.
Why they didn't do it like that to begin with, and then list some samples of how to tailor a character to a specific art, is beyond me.
Actually, it's a little easier than all that. You learn a martial art to level 8, and learn 4 maneuvers. You then pick up a bit of another art-- say, level 2-- and learn one maneuver. Repeat as needed with other maneuvers.
I let people buy maneuvers for weapon skills at 4 karma each, effectively the same as doing the martial arts trick with fewer limitations and no extraneous training in unarmed combat. No more than half your skill or the price goes up.
What do people thing of this scenario:
Kung-Fu 2 (Blind Fighting, Blind Fighting with Edged Weapons)
Pentjak-Silat 2 (Whirling, Whirling with Edged Weapons)
Arnis De Mano 2 (Multi-Strike, Multi-Strike with Edged Weapons)
Edged Weapons 6
Essentially: With this setup could you use Blind-Fighting with either Multi-Strike or Whirling?
[aside]I chose to go with the other skills at 2 as it's cheaper to buy the 2nd at 8 than the skill from 2 to 4 (4 + 6 + 2 = 12 karma, 4 more than just buying the maneuver)[/aside]
Kung-Fu 2 (Blind Fighting, Blind Fighting with Edged Weapons)
Pentjak-Silat 2 (Whirling, Whirling with Edged Weapons)
Arnis De Mano 2 (Multi-Strike, Multi-Strike with Edged Weapons)
Edged Weapons 6
Essentially: With this setup could you use Blind-Fighting with either Multi-Strike or Whirling?
[aside]I chose to go with the other skills at 2 as it's cheaper to buy the 2nd at 8 than the skill from 2 to 4 (4 + 6 + 2 = 12 karma, 4 more than just buying the maneuver)[/aside]
You can only use one Maneuver or Combat Option at any given time unless specifically stated otherwise.
It is stated under blind fighting that it can be used with any other combat option, the question is wether or not applying 2 maneuvers from different arts to a single action is valid.
Probably not, since they're still maneuvers and it does say that you can only use one at any given time unless otherwise stated. The fact that they come from different martial arts styles is irrelevant.
Really they just need maneuvers for the other skills besides martial arts. Maneuvers for edged weapons, maneuvers for pole arms, even for everything else too.
For instance "Maneuvers" for chemistry could be specific formulas you know, thus "Cram" "Kamikaze" and "Jazz" would be chemistry maneuvers enabling you to make those specific drugs more easily.
For instance "Maneuvers" for chemistry could be specific formulas you know, thus "Cram" "Kamikaze" and "Jazz" would be chemistry maneuvers enabling you to make those specific drugs more easily.
| QUOTE (Dashifen) |
| EDIT: Just thought of this, too: if you raised your kung fu from 4 to 5 you suddenly couldn't use your sword with your kung fu anymore. Does this make sense to any martial artist out there? Would you focus on learning unarmed techniques impact your previously existent ability to use armed techniques? |
Preface: This is all my opinion, which I picked up from my lessons at my dojo with my sensei here
In Taijutusu, you learn the process of moving the body before you learn the process of moving with a weapon. The overall skill of "body movement", taijutsu, is used for both. Using a weapon requires a firm grasp of how the body moves. You need to be able to move without having to concentrate before you can really become effective with a weapon. That takes time. My sensei has restrictions on when you can began to learn weapons that are based on an overall skill level.
The Soke, or Grandmaster of the art, says when someone has been poorly trained, you can "see" the students attention and skill "leak" into the weapon, leaving them unbalanced. They loose the ability to coordinate body movement, and so movement with an extention of the body, the weapon, becomes clumsy. Therefore, in my opinion, there has to be some training in UNarmed combat in order for a character to pick up ARMED combat, when we are speaking of Martial arts. I would say it's possible, but very difficult, to learn a weapon outside of some type of "body art", but any such training would have to include at least some of that knowledge. It's not just knowing how to swing a sword that's important, it's knowing how to use your hips and legs and back to be where you need to be before, during and after a swing. How do you walk or run with a weapon? If you have to raise your arms, how do you remain balanced? It's all part and parcel of learning how your body moves; and then how your body moves with something added.
That being said, I would say yes, that unarmed training would affect previously existant ability with a weapon because in the course of the training you will uncover knowledge of how to better position yourself and your extension of yourself- the weapon.
However, I have no idea how to translate this into the rules. I keep my Unarmed combat very simple, as was posted already by A Clockwork Lime (love the name!). I've never found a way to accurately translate real life martial skills into an rpg realistically. I've always found abstraction to be a better option. But what you say, that suddenly your ability to use a weapon disappears, doesn't make sense to me either. In my experience, which is not the end-all, be-all, obviously, proper training will allow both of those skills to grow together.
Who says it disappears? Defaulting is an oft-shuddered upon concept by a lot of people around here, but it's the entire point of these things. The only change we've made to those rules is that Unarmed Combat can be defaulted to or from most Melee Weapon Skills as if it were a specialization (+3 instead of +2).
So say you're a fencer who only took Edged Weapons 6 (Evasion, Herding, and Zoning). Your opponent successfully disarms you, leaving you weaponless. You now have the option to continue to engage in the fight (dumb as it may be, considering he did just disarm you), with full access to all of your maneuvers, albeit with a +3 modifier for defaulting to Edged Weapons. Alternatively, you could break a leg off of a nearby stool and start swinging it around, gaining the same benefits but with a +2 modifier since it's close to what you originally learned.
If a character gets their ass handed to them often enough, they can start learning Unarmed Combat or other skills. It still costs them 2 Karma to apply a maneuver to that new style of combat, but they also still have the option of defaulting to the original skill if they absolutely have to to perform a given maneuver since they haven't learned how to apply it correctly to their new style of combat. But once they do, that penalty disappears.
So say you're a fencer who only took Edged Weapons 6 (Evasion, Herding, and Zoning). Your opponent successfully disarms you, leaving you weaponless. You now have the option to continue to engage in the fight (dumb as it may be, considering he did just disarm you), with full access to all of your maneuvers, albeit with a +3 modifier for defaulting to Edged Weapons. Alternatively, you could break a leg off of a nearby stool and start swinging it around, gaining the same benefits but with a +2 modifier since it's close to what you originally learned.
If a character gets their ass handed to them often enough, they can start learning Unarmed Combat or other skills. It still costs them 2 Karma to apply a maneuver to that new style of combat, but they also still have the option of defaulting to the original skill if they absolutely have to to perform a given maneuver since they haven't learned how to apply it correctly to their new style of combat. But once they do, that penalty disappears.
ah, hm. seem to have posted to the wrong thread. odd.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| The solution we have is pretty simple. There are no Martial Arts skills. Unarmed Combat is used when unarmed, and Melee Skills are used with melee weapons. Unarmed Combat can be specialized for use with a specific Maneuver or Combat Option (Called Shots, Subduing, etc). Maneuvers can then be purchased for any of these skills at the standard costs (and are free at character creation, up to one-half your initial skill level). You then tailor your character towards whatever martial art style he prefers. A character who practices Aikido would likely have Unarmed Combat (Subduing) with the Throw maneuver as his primary skill focus, while someone who practices Fencing might have little more than Edged Weapons (Swords) and various maneuvers thereof. Why they didn't do it like that to begin with, and then list some samples of how to tailor a character to a specific art, is beyond me. |
The CC martial art rules are pretty ridiculous. It was a pretty poor attempt to introduce MA into the game, especially considering that it was in a canon source. Clockwork's suggestion, to use unarmed combat, with a specialty, as a replacement for martial arts (as opposed to the other way around) seems like a solid idea.
| QUOTE (LaughingTiger) | ||
Preface: This is all my opinion, which I picked up from my lessons at my dojo with my sensei here In Taijutusu, you learn the process of moving the body before you learn the process of moving with a weapon. The overall skill of "body movement", taijutsu, is used for both. Using a weapon requires a firm grasp of how the body moves. You need to be able to move without having to concentrate before you can really become effective with a weapon. That takes time. My sensei has restrictions on when you can began to learn weapons that are based on an overall skill level. The Soke, or Grandmaster of the art, says when someone has been poorly trained, you can "see" the students attention and skill "leak" into the weapon, leaving them unbalanced. They loose the ability to coordinate body movement, and so movement with an extention of the body, the weapon, becomes clumsy. Therefore, in my opinion, there has to be some training in UNarmed combat in order for a character to pick up ARMED combat, when we are speaking of Martial arts. I would say it's possible, but very difficult, to learn a weapon outside of some type of "body art", but any such training would have to include at least some of that knowledge. It's not just knowing how to swing a sword that's important, it's knowing how to use your hips and legs and back to be where you need to be before, during and after a swing. How do you walk or run with a weapon? If you have to raise your arms, how do you remain balanced? It's all part and parcel of learning how your body moves; and then how your body moves with something added. That being said, I would say yes, that unarmed training would affect previously existant ability with a weapon because in the course of the training you will uncover knowledge of how to better position yourself and your extension of yourself- the weapon. However, I have no idea how to translate this into the rules. I keep my Unarmed combat very simple, as was posted already by A Clockwork Lime (love the name!). I've never found a way to accurately translate real life martial skills into an rpg realistically. I've always found abstraction to be a better option. But what you say, that suddenly your ability to use a weapon disappears, doesn't make sense to me either. In my experience, which is not the end-all, be-all, obviously, proper training will allow both of those skills to grow together. |
interesting points. So how do you feel about Kenjutsu and the various sword arts. From what I have read they really don't emphasize unarmed movement or training much if at all. I may be understanding it wrong, if so please enlighten me.
| QUOTE |
| So how do you feel about Kenjutsu and the various sword arts. From what I have read they really don't emphasize unarmed movement or training much if at all. |
Yes and no.
First of all, any combat art will include certain basics of motion. The human body only has a certain number of strong structures, so they get recycled for a lot of different things.
Second, you have to realize that while modern kenjutsu is all about sword training, originally it was part of a comprehensive course in warrior training. A samurai-in-training would learn unarmed combat as well as swordfighting, in case he were disarmed or otherwise couldn't use his sword. They learned multiple weapons-- bow and spear being the most prominent.
Kenjutsu was never intended to be "the sole art of the samurai". It was one part of the training-- important, to be sure, but only part of it. If you look at other combat arts, you'll see how many of them incorporate weapons. Kenjutsu was never intended to be a "full" martial art, it was part of a more comprehensive style.
Incidentally-- I allow people to create weapon-based martial arts, which utilize a weapon skill as the base skill. I've also toyed with something similar to Clockwork's idea-- leaving only one Unarmed Combat skill, and allowing people to buy maneuvers with it.
However, the other idea I've been toying with is this one:
New Martial Art: "Personal style"
A "Personal Style" is an art created by a person, designed to intergrate all his previous training into one whole unit. Each personal style is unique to the creator, and is designed to bring together the best of all the arts he knows. After a sufficient amount of development, the personal art becomes a unique skill in and of itself, taking the best of the other arts while ignoring what does not work.
Advantages: Like Brawling, you are not required to purchase maneuvers when gaining levels in a Personal Style. (However, see Disadvantages.) You may also freely use any other maneuvers you know when using your Personal Style.
Disadvantages: You cannot purchase maneuvers to use with your Personal Style skill. You must purchase them through training in other arts.
Maneuvers: None.
| QUOTE (Solstice) |
| interesting points. So how do you feel about Kenjutsu and the various sword arts. From what I have read they really don't emphasize unarmed movement or training much if at all. I may be understanding it wrong, if so please enlighten me. |
Again, all my opinion.
The sword techinques I have learned are part of a style known as Kukishin or Kukishden ryu. The home dojo
Kukishin is part of the six systems that make up Budo Bujinkan Taijutsu, the art I am in the process of learning. It goes back to my original post... movement and the way of moving the body are learned as part of the style of swordsmanship. I have also never been involved in a "kenjutsu" class, or a class that teaches weapons only. From what I've seen in my limited experience, there is always a system of moving, of using the body, inherent in the style of swordsmanship. Whether it's with sword or without, you are learning a way to move your body. If the movement is genuine, it should be able to be used with or without a weapon. I'm trying to think of a way to explain this, it's hard to put into words. In my class, we learn a technique. At a certain level of skill, that techinque is used for both armed and unarmed combat. I've seen shidoshi Harding perform a throwing technique unarmed, and then perform the same technique holding a weapon. It's the essence of what we learn, really. A natural style of movement.
Keep in mind, I'm heavliy baised by my training and limited experience. I can only respond to what I have seen and experienced, but it seems to be that learning any form of weapon training outside of some form of training the body is futile. If you're going to be training the body to move anyway, why not include universal techniques that are applicable no matter your situation, armed or unarmed? In my mind, I really have a hard time seperating the two because I've seen them taught in conjuction.
I also agree with Cain on his post defining kenjutsu as a part of the training of hte warrior, not the warrior as a whole. In my study of Japanese ryu-ha, or styles, including what is known as koryu bugei, or arts that were in place before the 16th century, I've never seen a style of swordsmanship truly seperate from other training. Swordsman schools may have had their own names, but as far as I can tell, they were all part of a whole training regimen.
I think the big thing you guys are missing is that just because a "single" art you're practicing is considered a "single" art, that doesn't mean that as far as skills go, it doesn't run the gamut of multiple skills.
I mean, "hacking" could be considered a single art, yet it requires Computers, Computers B/R, Electronics, and Electronics B/R at the very least, not to mention a host of Knowledge Skills. That doesn't mean their should be a single Hacking skill, though. It just reflects different focuses within the same artform, allowing the player to customize just what his character can do.
The same occurs if you throw out the stupid Martial Arts skills in CC and go back to Unarmed Combat while letting maneuvers be purchased for individual skills. Trust the players to pick the skills most appropriate to the art they see their characters practicing. If they want to focus exclusively on Edged Weapons, that's their perogitive. The same is true of a "hacker" who relies solely on Computers (Decking). He's going to suck outside of his field, but that was his choice to make.
I mean, "hacking" could be considered a single art, yet it requires Computers, Computers B/R, Electronics, and Electronics B/R at the very least, not to mention a host of Knowledge Skills. That doesn't mean their should be a single Hacking skill, though. It just reflects different focuses within the same artform, allowing the player to customize just what his character can do.
The same occurs if you throw out the stupid Martial Arts skills in CC and go back to Unarmed Combat while letting maneuvers be purchased for individual skills. Trust the players to pick the skills most appropriate to the art they see their characters practicing. If they want to focus exclusively on Edged Weapons, that's their perogitive. The same is true of a "hacker" who relies solely on Computers (Decking). He's going to suck outside of his field, but that was his choice to make.
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