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> Damn, I have to take the red pill this time, Learning to cope with the matrix
WeaverMount
post May 13 2012, 09:07 PM
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I usually just avoid hacking because the rules are so poor. This time, I want to run a sandbox "knowledge is power" game and can't really get away with that. I've though of a few options
1) I've considered using Frank's matrix total conversion. I have some issues, but I've run some tests and 100% playable
2) I've also though about saying all systems need a specific exploit giving all networks a generic security rating representing how hard it is to find/research an exploit for that system. Once you get it just works and dice determine how long you have detection/reboot/IC/Trace etc. Depending on the people skill and discipline of the targets the the exploit might be closed in rounds or weeks.
Thoughts on either approach or new ones?
3) Social only: all security is perfect ... until meat bags get there oily hands on it. The basic idea is that hackers are either in or out of system. If they are in they auto-pwn in 1 round. As a GM, I would come up with tiered systems hierarchies, and free for probing.

Any thoughts, suggestions, other options?
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Tanegar
post May 14 2012, 02:26 AM
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Option 3 essentially obsoletes hackers in favor of faces.
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CanRay
post May 14 2012, 04:59 AM
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Make them work for it. Old Skool: "The weakest element in any security system is the human one."
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kzt
post May 14 2012, 05:14 AM
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Every high profile attack I can think of over the last few years started with a spear phishing attack that was used to gain control of a machines. The takedown of RSA's Secure ID system started with 3 people in HR getting emailed a spreadsheet labeled 2011 recruitment plan with a zero-day by a Chinese intl agency iirc.

Too bad you can't do this in SR4. ...
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Ryu
post May 14 2012, 05:27 AM
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QUOTE (WeaverMount @ May 13 2012, 11:07 PM) *
2) I've also though about saying all systems need a specific exploit giving all networks a generic security rating representing how hard it is to find/research an exploit for that system. Once you get it just works and dice determine how long you have detection/reboot/IC/Trace etc. Depending on the people skill and discipline of the targets the the exploit might be closed in rounds or weeks.
Thoughts on either approach or new ones?
3) Social only: all security is perfect ... until meat bags get there oily hands on it. The basic idea is that hackers are either in or out of system. If they are in they auto-pwn in 1 round. As a GM, I would come up with tiered systems hierarchies, and free for probing.

What aspects of the rules do you want improved? What kind of players will you have in your campaign?

Option 3 is great, but social hacking should not be the only option.

If "streamlining for faster resolution" is your goal for option 2, try using generic device ratings for parts of the net. Define security checkup intervals to decide how long an exploit works. Look at UW pg. 63-65 for authentication methods, maybe you want something like that.

If you want to require more preparation for hacking, certain nodes might require users to have certain specific software - at work I will loose the choice of browsers in the next days, damn stupid proxy.
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Abstruse
post May 14 2012, 08:45 AM
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Quote off a tshirt I own: "Social Engineering: Because There's No Patch for Human Stupidity"
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Tias
post May 14 2012, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE (Abstruse @ May 14 2012, 10:45 AM) *
Quote off a tshirt I own: "Social Engineering: Because There's No Patch for Human Stupidity"


.. That still assumes your kind of stupidity is superior to that of everyone else (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I hate the Matrix. I want to have it in my game, and one of my chars is a hacker, but I cannot deal with the rules, they are the most confusing crock of dreck there is, even worse than that of magic. Also, having three spheres of initiative (regular, matrix and astral) is a bit daunting for a novice GM.

I don't know what "Franks total conversion" is, but I'm tempted to try any streamlining of the wireless rules that have been made.
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Blade
post May 14 2012, 09:55 AM
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Frank's rules work, but they have a extremely deep impact on the setting and playstyle.

If you want to change the way the Matrix work, you have to consider these:

The hacker's role
1. Do you want hackers hacking things? If you don't, just go with your solution n°3 and have the face replace the hacker.
2. Do you want to play with the VR metaphor or do you want to ignore it? Do you want it to be common, or only used for very important hacks?
3. Do you want the Matrix plane to be as important as the Astral and Physical plane or do you want it to be dealt with quickly and easily?

The hacker's capabilities
1. Do you want the hacker to be able to tap phone calls or the opposite team's comms?
2. Do you want the hacker to be able to hack on the fly, or do you want him to have to prepare everything before? In the latter case, how do you handle cameras and drones?
3. Do you want the hacker to be able to hack high security systems? Or is he only there to hack minor devices?

Once you've got a clear vision on what you want hacking to be in your game, it'll be easier for you to figure a solution. You'll just have to check the impact your solution has on the game world to make sure there's no issue (like a single hacker being able to bring down the entire Matrix).
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jaellot
post May 14 2012, 12:17 PM
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In some sleep deprived delusions I've toyed with the idea of running the Matrix like The Matrix (the movie), just change the metaphor. Instead of the height of human civilization, this system's them is the human body itself. Those white blood cells are the Agents (IC, for SR) come to whomp your ass. Or outer space. Those little rows of asteroids are data packets, each one a seperate file.

It falls apart when I try to figure out how to make it actually work, though. I mean, I could just do some sort of price tinker, and say all the gear has a program equivalent, and the price is "x". Of course, this all means nothing if running simply in AR, which I absolutely hate anyway. Also.

Yeah, not fond of the Matrix, and never really have been. Oddly enough, just when I was finally getting the 3rd ed. system for it, they go and change the friggin' editions. I've toyed with bringing in some of those aspects of the system, too. Like the color codes for various nodes (blue, green, orange, red, and even those legendary UV). So far my notion is to let the color be a threshold to do things there. Blue is 1, and go up from there.
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mister__joshua
post May 14 2012, 01:52 PM
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QUOTE (Tias @ May 14 2012, 10:48 AM) *
...I cannot deal with the rules, they are the most confusing crock of dreck there is


Have you ever tried the 'net rules in Cyberpunk 2020? They make the SR4 rules seem refreshing and light (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post May 14 2012, 02:52 PM
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QUOTE (mister__joshua @ May 14 2012, 07:52 AM) *
Have you ever tried the 'net rules in Cyberpunk 2020? They make the SR4 rules seem refreshing and light (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


Which is probably why the Matrix Rules in SR4 do not bother me at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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DMiller
post May 15 2012, 02:51 AM
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Our group created our own House Rule for what we call speed hacking. We use if for the less important hacks and when the GM feels like being lazy. It is an opposed test with reasonably large dice pools so be forewarned.

The system is open to abuse, so the GM and players using it need to cooperate on not abusing it.

Here is the link to the MS Excel file we use:
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D024671_6664841_67257

There are two sheets in the file. We usually use “Option 2”. We use a spreadsheet-based character sheet that makes calculating average program rating very easy. Of course using all your programs at the same rating also makes this easy.

I hope this helps at least a little.

-D
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Saint Sithney
post May 15 2012, 06:00 AM
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There just needs to be an "anatomy of a shadowrun" for the matrix to help people grok the rules. They're not terribly complicated if you take a couple of hours to really digest them. They're just presented poorly and disjointedly.

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phlapjack77
post May 15 2012, 06:17 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ May 15 2012, 02:00 PM) *
There just needs to be an "anatomy of a shadowrun" for the matrix to help people grok the rules. They're not terribly complicated if you take a couple of hours to really digest them. They're just presented poorly and disjointedly.

Wasn't there something like that, called "Game,set,match" written by Jennifer Harding? That example was pretty confusing...
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DMiller
post May 15 2012, 06:40 AM
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QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ May 15 2012, 03:00 PM) *
There just needs to be an "anatomy of a shadowrun" for the matrix to help people grok the rules. They're not terribly complicated if you take a couple of hours to really digest them. They're just presented poorly and disjointedly.


I agree, however the biggest issue we've had with the matrix "mini-game" is that it tends to detract from the overall pace of the game for anyone who is not the hacker. Earlier versions of SR had this same issue, only worse.

Currently when my GM has an important hack planned, he and I get together outside our normal game time to run the hack without much detail. When it comes time in game for the hack to happen the GM describes the whole encounter to the group and we move on already knowing what happened without it taking much one-on-one time away from the rest of the team. I used to do this in the earlier SR as well, but then it could easily take two or three hours to do, now it's usually only 15 or 20 minutes.

-D
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JTNLANGE
post May 15 2012, 05:30 PM
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Well to each his own. I think the Matrix rules work out fine, and I have integrated them into a game just fine without making everyone else sit around and wait on the hacker. I just had to read the rules and digest them awhile. I think they work pretty well for the concept I envision and at least my group syas I run it fine. I think Blade has it right. you just need to have a concept of what you expect from the hacker and go from there.

Trevor
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DireRadiant
post May 15 2012, 08:03 PM
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Almost everyone not the TM/Hacker is in AR. This means that for most activities the solo mini game is gone. Cybercombat is the only time the complexity of the cybercombat rules moves matrix into minigame mode. And that's just because the TM/Hacker has the capabilities. Just like the Street Sam/Physads do physical combat really well. Because they have the IPs and skills to act when others do not.

Break out of misconceptions. Extend your game.

The non TM/Hacker can assist the main matrix action, either in the Matrix, or from outside. Teamwork and cross over from physical to Matrix views are entirely reasonable.

Hunting for the node to Hack? Why wouldn't a Street Sam want to be able to use the skills of EW and Scan to find that node so they can shoot it up and destroy it (Or point the Hacker at it)? Want to find cameras, sensors, and electronic device? Anyone should want these skills, not just Hackers.

Team work tests can make extended Tests go quicker.

There are a whole bunch of other ways to cross the digital divide.
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Ryu
post May 15 2012, 08:24 PM
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QUOTE (DMiller @ May 15 2012, 08:40 AM) *
I agree, however the biggest issue we've had with the matrix "mini-game" is that it tends to detract from the overall pace of the game for anyone who is not the hacker. Earlier versions of SR had this same issue, only worse.

Currently when my GM has an important hack planned, he and I get together outside our normal game time to run the hack without much detail. When it comes time in game for the hack to happen the GM describes the whole encounter to the group and we move on already knowing what happened without it taking much one-on-one time away from the rest of the team. I used to do this in the earlier SR as well, but then it could easily take two or three hours to do, now it's usually only 15 or 20 minutes.

-D

I´m not sure if I understand. You take 15-20 minute spotlights out of the regular game time? Or are usual matrix runs that short, and your GM runs occasional specials just for you? (Would be the same for Astral Quests then.)
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Yerameyahu
post May 15 2012, 09:49 PM
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In the kind of integrated play DireRadiant is describing, it really helps if you *haven't* altered the matrix rules to gimp 'script kiddies'. The SR4 rules encourage (and, I continue to assume, on purpose) every character to be matrix active. It's a matrix-integrated world for everyone.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post May 15 2012, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 15 2012, 03:49 PM) *
In the kind of integrated play DireRadiant is describing, it really helps if you *haven't* altered the matrix rules to gimp 'script kiddies'. The SR4 rules encourage (and, I continue to assume, on purpose) every character to be matrix active. It's a matrix-integrated world for everyone.


Works either way, actually (Standard Rules, or Logic+Skill Capped by program)... At least for us it did. *shrug*
I agree that everyone is encouraged to be active, to some degree, in the Matrix.
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DMiller
post May 16 2012, 01:01 AM
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QUOTE (Ryu @ May 16 2012, 05:24 AM) *
I´m not sure if I understand. You take 15-20 minute spotlights out of the regular game time? Or are usual matrix runs that short, and your GM runs occasional specials just for you? (Would be the same for Astral Quests then.)

Usual matrix runs take 15-20 minutes.

We have no characters that can project into Astral Space (1 mystic adept, and 3 adepts) so no Astral Quests.

The main hacker is also an infiltrator so she shines more on the infiltration and planning where everyone is involved. Others have stated that all team members should be helping in the matrix, but I'm not sure I want the street sam with his rating 3 communit and no stealth (or minimal stealth) clomping around in the matrix when I'm trying to hack into the "big nasty". That sounds like suicide. Sure if they spend the money and karma on becoming a hacker themselves they could help... but then why would they need a dedicated hacker if everyone else is one too? Our group relies heavily on the concept that we are a team so that no one person does everything, from the sounds of others games the hacker is really unneeded because everyone is supposed to be the hacker and be able to do his job.

Edit:
We also have two players that don’t tend to crack open the books to learn about the game except on game day. Or if they do look in the books, they are only concerned with their character’s primary role and tend to neglect other possibilities. I understand this may be unique to our group, but that is just how it is for us.

We all do have fun and we all get to shine at some point, maybe not every game but often enough. I guess that’s what is important.

The reason we came up with the speed hacking (posted earlier) was just to make the Matrix move a little faster when we needed to keep the story moving, and also it gave us more time to digest the Matrix rules without completely ignoring the Matrix in the mean time.


-D
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kzt
post May 16 2012, 02:58 AM
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Why does anyone have a crappy comlink? They are hardly expensive, and you steal all the software anyhow, don't you?
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DMiller
post May 16 2012, 03:05 AM
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QUOTE (kzt @ May 16 2012, 11:58 AM) *
Why does anyone have a crappy comlink? They are hardly expensive, and you steal all the software anyhow, don't you?

For the first year (RL) of game play we could barely afford our lifestyles. That's gotten better since then.

We don't use the shareware/freeware optional rules. You have to pay for everything. We can't even spoof lifestyles, though I'm working on that one.

-D
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Ryu
post May 16 2012, 06:03 AM
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QUOTE (DMiller @ May 16 2012, 03:01 AM) *
The main hacker is also an infiltrator so she shines more on the infiltration and planning where everyone is involved. Others have stated that all team members should be helping in the matrix, but I'm not sure I want the street sam with his rating 3 communit and no stealth (or minimal stealth) clomping around in the matrix when I'm trying to hack into the "big nasty". That sounds like suicide. Sure if they spend the money and karma on becoming a hacker themselves they could help... but then why would they need a dedicated hacker if everyone else is one too? Our group relies heavily on the concept that we are a team so that no one person does everything, from the sounds of others games the hacker is really unneeded because everyone is supposed to be the hacker and be able to do his job.

We currently have two mages, one samurai, one rigger/hacker and one technomancer. (I´m pulling a CanRay currently - so only one of the mages is actually played.) There has been a dedicated matrix person on the team for several years now. Everybody dabbles in matrix stuff, but the hacking and most of matrix security is handled by the hacker. "Helping with matrix stuff" is doing your own web searches, participating in VPNs relevant to the speciality of your char, and generally knowing when not to stomp around with stealth 3. No team tests, no involvement in planing a matrix run. The area where everybody actually works together is suggesting creative ways to misuse a hacked system.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post May 16 2012, 01:08 PM
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QUOTE (DMiller @ May 15 2012, 09:05 PM) *
For the first year (RL) of game play we could barely afford our lifestyles. That's gotten better since then.

We don't use the shareware/freeware optional rules. You have to pay for everything. We can't even spoof lifestyles, though I'm working on that one.

-D


Why would you need to buy Software more than once?
IF You have an Elite Hacker, have him pass out copies of his software to everyone else. Voila... Now everyone has good programs.
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