Language Houserule |
Language Houserule |
May 24 2012, 02:29 AM
Post
#1
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 582 Joined: 13-April 08 Member No.: 15,881 |
The way SR4 handles languages has always kinda bugged me a little bit and strikes me as a touch too complex so I punched this out. What do you guys think?
-------------------------------- All Language skills have three ratings; zero (or untrainted), one, or two. A zero means you cant understand what someone else is saying at all. A one means you can communicate with basic information, "Where's the bathroom?" "What time is it?" but anything more complex than the very basic is beyond your ability. A two is fluent, you can communicate what you need effectively to other people and make yourself understood. Buying a language at one costs 2 BP and buying it at two costs 4 BP. It costs 2 BP to raise a skill from one to two. The Linguistics skill gives a +1 raise to any Language with a one rating, BP cost for the quality is unchanged. --------------------------------- |
|
|
May 24 2012, 03:44 AM
Post
#2
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Validating Posts: 2,492 Joined: 19-April 12 Member No.: 51,818 |
Hmmm. I think that's not quite "granular" enough.
I would suggest:
... then just use the standard costs in the book for buying Language skills. |
|
|
May 24 2012, 04:08 AM
Post
#3
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,290 Joined: 23-January 07 From: Seattle, USA Member No.: 10,749 |
I've always liked, "Spend an karma, learn a language" Considering they offer no direct numerical benefit, and how prevalent linguists are, and how global the culture is supposed to be, it just makes sense to me. Simple and easy.
|
|
|
May 24 2012, 04:16 AM
Post
#4
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Validating Posts: 2,492 Joined: 19-April 12 Member No.: 51,818 |
I've always liked, "Spend an karma, learn a language" Considering they offer no direct numerical benefit, and how prevalent linguists are, and how global the culture is supposed to be, it just makes sense to me. Simple and easy. True enough. But with a "how fluent are you, REALLY" setup like the one above? You can actually do things like specialise in "Spoken" - and be better at talking, than reading/writing. Or vice versa, "Written" and be more able to read something, than pronounce it correctly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
|
|
May 24 2012, 05:45 AM
Post
#5
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,473 Joined: 24-May 10 From: Beijing Member No.: 18,611 |
I've always liked, "Spend an karma, learn a language" Considering they offer no direct numerical benefit, and how prevalent linguists are, and how global the culture is supposed to be, it just makes sense to me. Simple and easy. I like the idea of simplying how languages work. With always-on internet, linguasofts, and super-computers being worn on your wrist and interfacing directly with your brain, the need to know other languages becomes vanishingly small. Maybe roll them over into some kind of simple modifier for Etiquette? Pay 1 Karma to know Japanese, pay 2 Karma to know it well enough to get a +1 bonus to Etiquette when in a situation where Japanese is important. |
|
|
May 24 2012, 06:41 AM
Post
#6
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 |
Actually it is the other way around. In any language opther than your native tongue you can only use your social skills up to the language rating. So someone with Etiquette 6 and Japanese 1 is just as good as a native speaker with Etiquette 1 or any other character with Etiquette 1 and Japanese 1. So knowing languages does have a mechanical benefit.
|
|
|
May 24 2012, 06:56 AM
Post
#7
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 411 Joined: 10-June 09 From: Minneapolis, MN Member No.: 17,268 |
Linguistics grad student here. I tend to approach it with almost the exact same benchmarks you have here.
The hard part if you ask me is defining what's a language and what's not. Let's say you're taking "Arabic" like someone in the book. I don't know if SR writers know that a Moroccan speaker and a Palestinian speaker are basically not going to be able to understand each other. There's a similar situation with a lot of macro-languages like that, such as "Sioux" in the book (I'd have subdivided it into Lakota, Dakota, etc) or Hmong, which plays a significant role in my campaign (remarkable divergences between dialects). I tend to be touchy about what exactly the players put down as languages for this reason; typically I want to know where they learned it and then ad-lib adjustments for dialects. Similarly, the language system doesn't have a way beyond ad-lib approaches to deal with cross-linguistic similarities. If a Hindi and an Urdu speaker try to communicate, there needs to be some kind of a bonus in there. I honestly think the ad lib approach may be the best there, but I'd like to see someone try and deal with these hurdles. Hmmm. I think that's not quite "granular" enough. I would suggest:
... then just use the standard costs in the book for buying Language skills. |
|
|
May 24 2012, 07:11 AM
Post
#8
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,473 Joined: 24-May 10 From: Beijing Member No.: 18,611 |
Actually it is the other way around. In any language opther than your native tongue you can only use your social skills up to the language rating. So someone with Etiquette 6 and Japanese 1 is just as good as a native speaker with Etiquette 1 or any other character with Etiquette 1 and Japanese 1. So knowing languages does have a mechanical benefit. I never said that knowing languages in SR doesn't have a mechanical benefit. I'm saying the current mechanics could be changed to the mechanics I mentioned above, making them (perhaps) simpler and (perhaps) more realistic for the setting. |
|
|
May 24 2012, 02:35 PM
Post
#9
|
|
Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
I've always liked, "Spend an karma, learn a language" Considering they offer no direct numerical benefit, and how prevalent linguists are, and how global the culture is supposed to be, it just makes sense to me. Simple and easy. Don't forget that you have a Cap on Hits (or is it Skill Dice, I always forget) equal to your Language Rating in a Non-Native Language when you are using social skills. EDIT: OOOOPs... Dakka Dakka has the right of it, I think. Did not see his post before my own post. |
|
|
May 24 2012, 02:43 PM
Post
#10
|
|
Running Target Group: Banned Posts: 1,105 Joined: 23-August 10 Member No.: 18,961 |
[*]6 - Extremely advanced understanding - your accent is completely gone, and you are able to hold extremely technical discussions about highly abstract topics. Yeah... That doesn't make any sense. The awesome part about technical details is that they carry over easily from one language to the next. It's why the space mooks used math as a language in Contact. The more into concepts you go, the less you need to know about language, dialect and slang. Jargon. |
|
|
May 24 2012, 02:51 PM
Post
#11
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 |
You are right. I just don't think it starts at 6 though. The ability to converse about a particular (possibly obscure) subject is much less a function of your language skill than of your knowledge of the particular subject and the technical terms associated with it.
|
|
|
May 24 2012, 03:52 PM
Post
#12
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,473 Joined: 24-May 10 From: Beijing Member No.: 18,611 |
Yeah... That doesn't make any sense. The awesome part about technical details is that they carry over easily from one language to the next. It's why the space mooks used math as a language in Contact. The more into concepts you go, the less you need to know about language, dialect and slang. Not sure this is correct - they used Math because it was the only possible "language" they might have in common. Even though the humans knew English at N level, the "technical" details didn't carry over into Alien. You are right. I just don't think it starts at 6 though. The ability to converse about a particular (possibly obscure) subject is much less a function of your language skill than of your knowledge of the particular subject and the technical terms associated with it. Yeah. I attended a Maker workshop recently here in China, where the (American) guest speaker was explaining some things. His (Chinese) helpers were trying to translate for the audience, but the subject was low-level electrical theory stuff, and the translators weren't doing so well. Normal conversations went fine, but dipping into any technical jargon or even technical ideas made the translators stutter and falter. |
|
|
May 24 2012, 04:42 PM
Post
#13
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 |
Alright, now what happens when a non-native, poor speaker tries to communicate with another non-native, poor speaker (as it's the only language they have in common)?
None of you have addressed that. (We're talking two people with 3 ranks each, assuming Native = 6) |
|
|
May 24 2012, 06:26 PM
Post
#14
|
|
Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
Alright, now what happens when a non-native, poor speaker tries to communicate with another non-native, poor speaker (as it's the only language they have in common)? None of you have addressed that. (We're talking two people with 3 ranks each, assuming Native = 6) I assume that Native has no rating... Your Social Rolls have no cap on Skills for Native Languages. |
|
|
May 24 2012, 07:45 PM
Post
#15
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,290 Joined: 23-January 07 From: Seattle, USA Member No.: 10,749 |
I understand the basic rules for languages, I just think they are overly complex and way too expensive for what they give you. If a player wants to know 10 languages, they can go ahead, it's not going to hurt my feelings, and it's not going to break the game. Just remember that every karma spent getting better at speaking russian could be spent getting better at shooting a gun, or sneaking, or what not.
|
|
|
May 24 2012, 08:10 PM
Post
#16
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 |
I assume that Native has no rating... Your Social Rolls have no cap on Skills for Native Languages. *Facepalm* I meant as opposed to the original post's "max rating 3." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif) Check the book dude, it says that "Taking a language at native is equivalent to rating 6." |
|
|
May 24 2012, 08:13 PM
Post
#17
|
|
Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
*Facepalm* I meant as opposed to the original post's "max rating 3." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif) Check the book dude, it says that "Taking a language at native is equivalent to rating 6." And yet, you are still not at a penalty, so it is not really equal to a Rating of 6. *Dude* It is amazing that you do not get that. A Native Language is far from being a "Rating 6" Language. Otherwise it would be listed as Language: Rating 6, rather than Language: Native. |
|
|
May 24 2012, 08:14 PM
Post
#18
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,507 Joined: 11-November 08 Member No.: 16,582 |
Check the book dude, it says that "Taking a language at native is equivalent to rating 6." Does it really say that? Barring any additional rules for native languages, this would mean that the aptitude quality for any social skill would be pointless.Ninja'ed by Tymeaus Jalynsfein |
|
|
May 24 2012, 08:15 PM
Post
#19
|
|
Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
Does it really say that? Barring any additional rules for native languages, this would mean that the aptitude quality for any social skill would be pointless. Ninja'ed by Tymeaus Jalynsfein Indeed... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
|
|
May 24 2012, 08:55 PM
Post
#20
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 |
Jesus Fucking Christ people.
I'm not saying that native languages are a 6 for fuck's sake. I meant as opposed to the original post's "max rating 3." |
|
|
May 24 2012, 09:33 PM
Post
#21
|
|
Prime Runner Ascendant Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 |
Jesus Fucking Christ people. I'm not saying that native languages are a 6 for fuck's sake. I meant as opposed to the original post's "max rating 3." Really? And I quote... QUOTE (Draco18s) Check the book dude, it says that "Taking a language at native is equivalent to rating 6." And yet, it is not... |
|
|
May 24 2012, 09:44 PM
Post
#22
|
|
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Hey dudes, get over it, ok?
|
|
|
May 24 2012, 09:46 PM
Post
#23
|
|
Running Target Group: Banned Posts: 1,105 Joined: 23-August 10 Member No.: 18,961 |
If you don't have anything to contribute....
|
|
|
May 24 2012, 10:42 PM
Post
#24
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 |
|
|
|
May 24 2012, 10:49 PM
Post
#25
|
|
Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Woo, lockdown for 24 hours.
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 29th April 2024 - 04:04 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.