Socinus
May 24 2012, 02:29 AM
The way SR4 handles languages has always kinda bugged me a little bit and strikes me as a touch too complex so I punched this out. What do you guys think?
--------------------------------
All Language skills have three ratings; zero (or untrainted), one, or two.
A zero means you cant understand what someone else is saying at all. A one means you can communicate with basic information, "Where's the bathroom?" "What time is it?" but anything more complex than the very basic is beyond your ability. A two is fluent, you can communicate what you need effectively to other people and make yourself understood.
Buying a language at one costs 2 BP and buying it at two costs 4 BP. It costs 2 BP to raise a skill from one to two.
The Linguistics skill gives a +1 raise to any Language with a one rating, BP cost for the quality is unchanged.
---------------------------------
_Pax._
May 24 2012, 03:44 AM
Hmmm. I think that's not quite "granular" enough.
I would suggest:
- 0 - no knowledge at all; it's all gobbledygook to you.
- 1 - Extremely limited understanding - you know a few stock phrases ("My name is ___", "where is the bathroom", etc); your accent is strong enough to interfere with being understood.
- 2 - Limited understanding - your grammar leaves much to be desired, and your accent is still strong enough to be slightly distracting. Gaps in your vocabulary can occasionally present problems even in normal, day-to-day conversations.
- 3 - Basic conversational fluency - your accent is noticeable, and occasionally causes temporary confusion in some listeners, but you've got all the basics down; just try not to talk about complex subjects ...
- 4 - Native fluency - your accent is still noticeable, but no longer interferes with understanding, and your grammar is at least as good as any native speaker's ... maybe better.
- 5 - Advanced understanding - you have almost no accent left, and can carry conversations on topics even native-born speakers can't always follow.
- 6 - Extremely advanced understanding - your accent is completely gone, and you are able to hold extremely technical discussions about highly abstract topics.
... then just use the standard costs in the book for buying Language skills.
TheOOB
May 24 2012, 04:08 AM
I've always liked, "Spend an karma, learn a language" Considering they offer no direct numerical benefit, and how prevalent linguists are, and how global the culture is supposed to be, it just makes sense to me. Simple and easy.
_Pax._
May 24 2012, 04:16 AM
QUOTE (TheOOB @ May 24 2012, 12:08 AM)
I've always liked, "Spend an karma, learn a language" Considering they offer no direct numerical benefit, and how prevalent linguists are, and how global the culture is supposed to be, it just makes sense to me. Simple and easy.
True enough. But with a "how fluent are you, REALLY" setup like the one above? You can actually do things like specialise in "Spoken" - and be better at talking, than reading/writing. Or vice versa, "Written" and be more able to read something, than pronounce it correctly.
phlapjack77
May 24 2012, 05:45 AM
QUOTE (TheOOB @ May 24 2012, 12:08 PM)
I've always liked, "Spend an karma, learn a language" Considering they offer no direct numerical benefit, and how prevalent linguists are, and how global the culture is supposed to be, it just makes sense to me. Simple and easy.
I like the idea of simplying how languages work. With always-on internet, linguasofts, and super-computers being worn on your wrist and interfacing directly with your brain, the need to know other languages becomes vanishingly small.
Maybe roll them over into some kind of simple modifier for Etiquette? Pay 1 Karma to know Japanese, pay 2 Karma to know it well enough to get a +1 bonus to Etiquette when in a situation where Japanese is important.
Dakka Dakka
May 24 2012, 06:41 AM
Actually it is the other way around. In any language opther than your native tongue you can only use your social skills up to the language rating. So someone with Etiquette 6 and Japanese 1 is just as good as a native speaker with Etiquette 1 or any other character with Etiquette 1 and Japanese 1. So knowing languages does have a mechanical benefit.
Megu
May 24 2012, 06:56 AM
Linguistics grad student here. I tend to approach it with almost the exact same benchmarks you have here.
The hard part if you ask me is defining what's a language and what's not. Let's say you're taking "Arabic" like someone in the book. I don't know if SR writers know that a Moroccan speaker and a Palestinian speaker are basically not going to be able to understand each other. There's a similar situation with a lot of macro-languages like that, such as "Sioux" in the book (I'd have subdivided it into Lakota, Dakota, etc) or Hmong, which plays a significant role in my campaign (remarkable divergences between dialects). I tend to be touchy about what exactly the players put down as languages for this reason; typically I want to know where they learned it and then ad-lib adjustments for dialects.
Similarly, the language system doesn't have a way beyond ad-lib approaches to deal with cross-linguistic similarities. If a Hindi and an Urdu speaker try to communicate, there needs to be some kind of a bonus in there.
I honestly think the ad lib approach may be the best there, but I'd like to see someone try and deal with these hurdles.
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ May 23 2012, 10:44 PM)
Hmmm. I think that's not quite "granular" enough.
I would suggest:
- 0 - no knowledge at all; it's all gobbledygook to you.
- 1 - Extremely limited understanding - you know a few stock phrases ("My name is ___", "where is the bathroom", etc); your accent is strong enough to interfere with being understood.
- 2 - Limited understanding - your grammar leaves much to be desired, and your accent is still strong enough to be slightly distracting. Gaps in your vocabulary can occasionally present problems even in normal, day-to-day conversations.
- 3 - Basic conversational fluency - your accent is noticeable, and occasionally causes temporary confusion in some listeners, but you've got all the basics down; just try not to talk about complex subjects ...
- 4 - Native fluency - your accent is still noticeable, but no longer interferes with understanding, and your grammar is at least as good as any native speaker's ... maybe better.
- 5 - Advanced understanding - you have almost no accent left, and can carry conversations on topics even native-born speakers can't always follow.
- 6 - Extremely advanced understanding - your accent is completely gone, and you are able to hold extremely technical discussions about highly abstract topics.
... then just use the standard costs in the book for buying Language skills.
phlapjack77
May 24 2012, 07:11 AM
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 24 2012, 02:41 PM)
Actually it is the other way around. In any language opther than your native tongue you can only use your social skills up to the language rating. So someone with Etiquette 6 and Japanese 1 is just as good as a native speaker with Etiquette 1 or any other character with Etiquette 1 and Japanese 1. So knowing languages does have a mechanical benefit.
I never said that knowing languages in SR doesn't have a mechanical benefit. I'm saying the current mechanics could be changed to the mechanics I mentioned above, making them (perhaps) simpler and (perhaps) more realistic for the setting.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
May 24 2012, 02:35 PM
QUOTE (TheOOB @ May 23 2012, 09:08 PM)
I've always liked, "Spend an karma, learn a language" Considering they offer no direct numerical benefit, and how prevalent linguists are, and how global the culture is supposed to be, it just makes sense to me. Simple and easy.
Don't forget that you have a Cap on Hits (or is it Skill Dice, I always forget) equal to your Language Rating in a Non-Native Language when you are using social skills.
EDIT: OOOOPs...
Dakka Dakka has the right of it, I think. Did not see his post before my own post.
almost normal
May 24 2012, 02:43 PM
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ May 23 2012, 11:44 PM)
[*]6 - Extremely advanced understanding - your accent is completely gone, and you are able to hold extremely technical discussions about highly abstract topics.
Yeah... That doesn't make any sense. The awesome part about technical details is that they carry over easily from one language to the next. It's why the space mooks used math as a language in Contact. The more into concepts you go, the less you need to know about language, dialect and slang.
Jargon.
Dakka Dakka
May 24 2012, 02:51 PM
You are right. I just don't think it starts at 6 though. The ability to converse about a particular (possibly obscure) subject is much less a function of your language skill than of your knowledge of the particular subject and the technical terms associated with it.
phlapjack77
May 24 2012, 03:52 PM
QUOTE (almost normal @ May 24 2012, 10:43 PM)
Yeah... That doesn't make any sense. The awesome part about technical details is that they carry over easily from one language to the next. It's why the space mooks used math as a language in Contact. The more into concepts you go, the less you need to know about language, dialect and slang.
Not sure this is correct - they used Math because it was the only possible "language" they might have in common. Even though the humans knew English at N level, the "technical" details didn't carry over into Alien.
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 24 2012, 10:51 PM)
You are right. I just don't think it starts at 6 though. The ability to converse about a particular (possibly obscure) subject is much less a function of your language skill than of your knowledge of the particular subject and the technical terms associated with it.
Yeah. I attended a Maker workshop recently here in China, where the (American) guest speaker was explaining some things. His (Chinese) helpers were trying to translate for the audience, but the subject was low-level electrical theory stuff, and the translators weren't doing so well. Normal conversations went fine, but dipping into any technical jargon or even technical ideas made the translators stutter and falter.
Draco18s
May 24 2012, 04:42 PM
Alright, now what happens when a non-native, poor speaker tries to communicate with another non-native, poor speaker (as it's the only language they have in common)?
None of you have addressed that.
(We're talking two people with 3 ranks each, assuming Native = 6)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
May 24 2012, 06:26 PM
QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 24 2012, 09:42 AM)
Alright, now what happens when a non-native, poor speaker tries to communicate with another non-native, poor speaker (as it's the only language they have in common)?
None of you have addressed that.
(We're talking two people with 3 ranks each, assuming Native = 6)
I assume that Native has no rating... Your Social Rolls have no cap on Skills for Native Languages.
TheOOB
May 24 2012, 07:45 PM
I understand the basic rules for languages, I just think they are overly complex and way too expensive for what they give you. If a player wants to know 10 languages, they can go ahead, it's not going to hurt my feelings, and it's not going to break the game. Just remember that every karma spent getting better at speaking russian could be spent getting better at shooting a gun, or sneaking, or what not.
Draco18s
May 24 2012, 08:10 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 24 2012, 02:26 PM)
I assume that Native has no rating... Your Social Rolls have no cap on Skills for Native Languages.
*Facepalm*
I
meant as opposed to the original post's "max rating 3."
Check the book dude, it says that "Taking a language at native is equivalent to rating 6."
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
May 24 2012, 08:13 PM
QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 24 2012, 01:10 PM)
*Facepalm*
I
meant as opposed to the original post's "max rating 3."
Check the book dude, it says that "Taking a language at native is equivalent to rating 6."
And yet, you are still not at a penalty, so it is not really equal to a Rating of 6. *Dude*
It is amazing that you do not get that. A Native Language is far from being a "Rating 6" Language. Otherwise it would be listed as Language: Rating 6, rather than Language: Native.
Dakka Dakka
May 24 2012, 08:14 PM
QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 24 2012, 10:10 PM)
Check the book dude, it says that "Taking a language at native is equivalent to rating 6."
Does it really say that? Barring any additional rules for native languages, this would mean that the aptitude quality for any social skill would be pointless.
Ninja'ed by Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
May 24 2012, 08:15 PM
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 24 2012, 01:14 PM)
Does it really say that? Barring any additional rules for native languages, this would mean that the aptitude quality for any social skill would be pointless.
Ninja'ed by Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Indeed...
Draco18s
May 24 2012, 08:55 PM
Jesus Fucking Christ people.
I'm not saying that native languages are a 6 for fuck's sake.
I meant as opposed to the original post's "max rating 3."
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
May 24 2012, 09:33 PM
QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 24 2012, 01:55 PM)
Jesus Fucking Christ people.
I'm not saying that native languages are a 6 for fuck's sake.
I meant as opposed to the original post's "max rating 3."
Really? And I quote...
QUOTE (Draco18s)
Check the book dude, it says that "Taking a language at native is equivalent to rating 6."
And yet, it is not...
Grinder
May 24 2012, 09:44 PM
Hey dudes, get over it, ok?
almost normal
May 24 2012, 09:46 PM
If you don't have anything to contribute....
Draco18s
May 24 2012, 10:42 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 24 2012, 05:33 PM)
Really? And I quote...
And yet, it is not...
Woo, more selective reading. 9..9
Grinder
May 24 2012, 10:49 PM
Woo, lockdown for 24 hours.
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