Can you shoot and hide simultaneously?, Is use infiltration and shooting skill in the same phase Options

[Psikerlord]

So in a recent module we had a sniper on a crane hiding with infiltration. Sniper then shoots at the team. Team wants to return fire. Question was, is sniper still hiding? (because if he was, the player's perception checks were too low to spot him). Looking at using actions in SR4A, sniper spent two simple actions shooting already, and using a skill is another complex action, so seems he cannot infiltrate and snipe in the same phase?

At first the players shot some grenades in his general area, and then we decided (based on the above) that since sniper couldn't hide/shoot same phase, he revealed himself once he shot and PCs could target him as usual.

Does this sound right to folks? Are we doing it right? Cheers!

[_Pax._]

So in a recent module we had a sniper on a crane hiding with infiltration. Sniper then shoots at the team. Team wants to return fire. Question was, is sniper still hiding? (because if he was, the player's perception checks were too low to spot him). Looking at using actions in SR4A, sniper spent two simple actions shooting already, and using a skill is another complex action, so seems he cannot infiltrate and snipe in the same phase?

At first the players shot some grenades in his general area, and then we decided (based on the above) that since sniper couldn't hide/shoot same phase, he revealed himself once he shot and PCs could target him as usual.

Does this sound right to folks? Are we doing it right? Cheers!

Yes, the sniper most certainly could hide and shoot at the same time. The thing is, every time he fires his weapon, every runner gets a Perception (Hearing) test to detect the sound of the weapon. And it is for that exact reason, why Silencers and Subsonic Ammunition exist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[BishopMcQ]

To build on what Pax said, I'd allow the sniper to sneak into position and make an Infiltration check. That will set the threshold for visual perception tests. The auditory tests happen again with gunshots. That said, if the sniper moves--rolls Reaction to dodge, etc--then he'll break cover and need to make another Infiltration test to hide again.

This makes the sniper have to play chicken a little bit--is that shot close enough that I should move to avoid getting hit and possibly reveal my position, or stay and pray that they are shooting randomly?

[Yerameyahu]

Right. It's hide, then shoot. Then maybe hide some more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hobgoblin]

Yes, the sniper most certainly could hide and shoot at the same time. The thing is, every time he fires his weapon, every runner gets a Perception (Hearing) test to detect the sound of the weapon. And it is for that exact reason, why Silencers and Subsonic Ammunition exist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And a spacial recognizer (SR4A, p333) provides a bonus for figuring out the location.

If someone is running the noise analysis software from arsenal (p61), one may not even need a high dice pool as the software takes care of that.

And then there are tacnets...

[Neraph]

And with subsonic ammo, electronic firing, and a built-in silencer (-9), from a long distance (-3), then good luck to you.

[hobgoblin]

Military-grade software and a huge drone sensor swarm (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Umidori]

Isn't Disguise the more appropriate skill for a concealed sniper? They aren't ducking into shadows and creeping around guards, they're blending into the terrain.

Plus, with Disguise you roll once to determine how well you conceal yourself, and that sets a threshold for detection. This represents the static nature of the concealment, unlike Infiltration where how well you are hidden will vary from moment to moment as you move and the available sources of cover or the sight lines of enemies change.

EDIT: Found what I was looking for in the rules.

Disguise (Intuition)
When a character wants to take on a false appearance of some kind, she uses the Disguise skill. This is true whether she wants to look like someone else or blend into the background.

~Umi

[_Pax._]

Isn't Disguise the more appropriate skill for a concealed sniper? They aren't ducking into shadows and creeping around guards, they're blending into the terrain.

Infiltrate to get there unnoticed.

Disguise to camoflage himself (or assemble an effective "hide") once in position.

^_^

[Umidori]

Exactly. But the point being that once firing, a sniper doesn't need to Infiltrate every turn, as his Disguising attempt will have set a threshold for detecting that will remain without requiring any action on his part until he does something to break the disguise, such as moving.

~Umi

[Makki]

players can also get +3 dice (Hearing and Looking) for Observe in detail, in case they choose to take this Simple Action, which they should.
Obviously, surprise rules only count in the sniper's first action pass. Unless he misses and nobody notices any bullets flying around.

[phlapjack77]

"who goes there?!?!"
...
.......
............
"probably just the wind"

[Aerospider]

Isn't Disguise the more appropriate skill for a concealed sniper?

I would say usually no. A sniper hiding behind a wall and poking his head and gun over the top is hiding, which uses Infiltration. To qualify for Disguise he would need to either stand in front of the wall wearing a wall-coloured outfit or otherwise act and position himself to appear as a passerby who isn't aiming a gun.

[Yerameyahu]

Isn't the latter more likely for a sniper? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Aerospider]

Isn't the latter more likely for a sniper? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't think so. In my mind 'sniper' conjures the image of a gunman taking aim from a concealed position. A guy across the room holding a pistol under his coat pretending not to be watching you like a hawk is more your common-or-garden hitman. Infiltration for the former, Disguise for the latter.

[almost normal]

Go on youtube and search for Iraqi or Afghani snipers. I wouldn't view any videos that require you to sign in.

Most snipers are rooftop with a soft rest, or sitting 4-5 feet back from a window with a rest.

[Yerameyahu]

from a concealed position

See, you said it twice. That's (often) Disguise. Infiltration is moving stealthily and bypassing anti-Infiltration security. Obviously, both get used, but that guy in the ghillie suit waiting for his shot isn't Infiltrating. As mentioned above, getting there was Infiltration.

A guy across the room holding a pistol

Not a 'sniper' at all.

[almost normal]

Obviously, both get used, but that guy in the ghillie suit waiting for his shot isn't Infiltrating.

Ah, yes. Ghillie suits. Using simulated thick brush and scrub to disguise yourself in the woody hills of the Seattle Downtown. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[VykosDarkSoul]

the point of the Ghillie suit comment was to be an example, and in the example provided they were not in downtown seattle, you could just as easily substitue Urban pattern Camo suit, or RPC Full Body suit, the point is that infiltration would be used to get TO your hiding spot, and Disguise would be used to set up your hiding spot, it also takes more time to set up, you can break line of sight and make an infilitration roll quick, Disquise is one of those skills that takes a little time and effort.

[almost normal]

the point of the Ghillie suit comment was to be an example, and in the example provided they were not in downtown seattle, you could just as easily substitue Urban pattern Camo suit, or RPC Full Body suit,

No, you really couldn't. Ghillie suits are something that are made on the spot, using an area's natural resources. A camo suit is just as effective if used by a trained scout, or a joe schlub. The only skill required is picking the right camo, and that's something that can be done with a data search or contact. While I applaud trying to get more use out of an underused skill, this just isn't a valid time to use it. Some people seem to be watching too many war movies, and confusing what they see for what should happen in a game. Disguise is great if you're trying to hide in the midst of dead bodies and rubble while trying to get the perfect shot, if you're in the middle of a war. I can hardly imagine a situation that would see the range of longarm snipers coming into play, while simultaneously hiding from active foot patrols that are walking a few feet away, while better, less accessible cover was available.

Are you sniping several feet back from a window? Awesome, you're using infiltration and firearms. Are you trying to find the right window to shoot from while remaining hidden? Awesome, you're using infiltration.

[Yerameyahu]

That's exactly what the whole thread has been talking about:

Isn't Disguise the more appropriate skill for a concealed sniper? They aren't ducking into shadows and creeping around guards, they're blending into the terrain.

So, sure, you can cherry-pick situations when Disguise isn't used. There are also many situations where it is.

[almost normal]

*facepalm*

It's cherry picking to find a situation where disguise is used in an urban sniping environment.

[_Pax._]

the point of the Ghillie suit comment was to be an example, and in the example provided they were not in downtown seattle, [...]

Depending on where you are, a ghillie suit could still be useful. It'd just have to be specifically adjusted for the locale in which you intend to use it - IOW, a Disguise roll to see how good you did with it.

[VykosDarkSoul]

Oh and as a sidenote? One of the specialization options for Disguise is Camouflage....just sayin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

in an urban sniping environment

If you *start* by stipulating that, duh.