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Psikerlord
So in a recent module we had a sniper on a crane hiding with infiltration. Sniper then shoots at the team. Team wants to return fire. Question was, is sniper still hiding? (because if he was, the player's perception checks were too low to spot him). Looking at using actions in SR4A, sniper spent two simple actions shooting already, and using a skill is another complex action, so seems he cannot infiltrate and snipe in the same phase?

At first the players shot some grenades in his general area, and then we decided (based on the above) that since sniper couldn't hide/shoot same phase, he revealed himself once he shot and PCs could target him as usual.

Does this sound right to folks? Are we doing it right? Cheers!

_Pax._
QUOTE (Psikerlord @ May 26 2012, 10:30 PM) *
So in a recent module we had a sniper on a crane hiding with infiltration. Sniper then shoots at the team. Team wants to return fire. Question was, is sniper still hiding? (because if he was, the player's perception checks were too low to spot him). Looking at using actions in SR4A, sniper spent two simple actions shooting already, and using a skill is another complex action, so seems he cannot infiltrate and snipe in the same phase?

At first the players shot some grenades in his general area, and then we decided (based on the above) that since sniper couldn't hide/shoot same phase, he revealed himself once he shot and PCs could target him as usual.

Does this sound right to folks? Are we doing it right? Cheers!


Yes, the sniper most certainly could hide and shoot at the same time. The thing is, every time he fires his weapon, every runner gets a Perception (Hearing) test to detect the sound of the weapon. And it is for that exact reason, why Silencers and Subsonic Ammunition exist. smile.gif
BishopMcQ
To build on what Pax said, I'd allow the sniper to sneak into position and make an Infiltration check. That will set the threshold for visual perception tests. The auditory tests happen again with gunshots. That said, if the sniper moves--rolls Reaction to dodge, etc--then he'll break cover and need to make another Infiltration test to hide again.

This makes the sniper have to play chicken a little bit--is that shot close enough that I should move to avoid getting hit and possibly reveal my position, or stay and pray that they are shooting randomly?
Yerameyahu
Right. It's hide, then shoot. Then maybe hide some more. smile.gif
hobgoblin
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ May 27 2012, 06:24 AM) *
Yes, the sniper most certainly could hide and shoot at the same time. The thing is, every time he fires his weapon, every runner gets a Perception (Hearing) test to detect the sound of the weapon. And it is for that exact reason, why Silencers and Subsonic Ammunition exist. smile.gif

And a spacial recognizer (SR4A, p333) provides a bonus for figuring out the location.

If someone is running the noise analysis software from arsenal (p61), one may not even need a high dice pool as the software takes care of that.

And then there are tacnets...
Neraph
And with subsonic ammo, electronic firing, and a built-in silencer (-9), from a long distance (-3), then good luck to you.
hobgoblin
Military-grade software and a huge drone sensor swarm wink.gif
Umidori
Isn't Disguise the more appropriate skill for a concealed sniper? They aren't ducking into shadows and creeping around guards, they're blending into the terrain.

Plus, with Disguise you roll once to determine how well you conceal yourself, and that sets a threshold for detection. This represents the static nature of the concealment, unlike Infiltration where how well you are hidden will vary from moment to moment as you move and the available sources of cover or the sight lines of enemies change.

EDIT: Found what I was looking for in the rules.

QUOTE (SR4A @ p. 124)
Disguise (Intuition)
When a character wants to take on a false appearance of some kind, she uses the Disguise skill. This is true whether she wants to look like someone else or blend into the background.

~Umi
_Pax._
QUOTE (Umidori @ May 27 2012, 11:57 AM) *
Isn't Disguise the more appropriate skill for a concealed sniper? They aren't ducking into shadows and creeping around guards, they're blending into the terrain.

Infiltrate to get there unnoticed.

Disguise to camoflage himself (or assemble an effective "hide") once in position.

^_^
Umidori
Exactly. But the point being that once firing, a sniper doesn't need to Infiltrate every turn, as his Disguising attempt will have set a threshold for detecting that will remain without requiring any action on his part until he does something to break the disguise, such as moving.

~Umi
Makki
players can also get +3 dice (Hearing and Looking) for Observe in detail, in case they choose to take this Simple Action, which they should.
Obviously, surprise rules only count in the sniper's first action pass. Unless he misses and nobody notices any bullets flying around.
phlapjack77
"who goes there?!?!"
...
.......
............
"probably just the wind"
Aerospider
QUOTE (Umidori @ May 27 2012, 04:57 PM) *
Isn't Disguise the more appropriate skill for a concealed sniper?

I would say usually no. A sniper hiding behind a wall and poking his head and gun over the top is hiding, which uses Infiltration. To qualify for Disguise he would need to either stand in front of the wall wearing a wall-coloured outfit or otherwise act and position himself to appear as a passerby who isn't aiming a gun.
Yerameyahu
Isn't the latter more likely for a sniper? smile.gif
Aerospider
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 29 2012, 01:56 PM) *
Isn't the latter more likely for a sniper? smile.gif

I don't think so. In my mind 'sniper' conjures the image of a gunman taking aim from a concealed position. A guy across the room holding a pistol under his coat pretending not to be watching you like a hawk is more your common-or-garden hitman. Infiltration for the former, Disguise for the latter.
almost normal
Go on youtube and search for Iraqi or Afghani snipers. I wouldn't view any videos that require you to sign in.

Most snipers are rooftop with a soft rest, or sitting 4-5 feet back from a window with a rest.

Yerameyahu
QUOTE
from a concealed position
See, you said it twice. That's (often) Disguise. Infiltration is moving stealthily and bypassing anti-Infiltration security. Obviously, both get used, but that guy in the ghillie suit waiting for his shot isn't Infiltrating. As mentioned above, getting there was Infiltration.

QUOTE
A guy across the room holding a pistol
Not a 'sniper' at all.
almost normal
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 29 2012, 10:42 AM) *
Obviously, both get used, but that guy in the ghillie suit waiting for his shot isn't Infiltrating.


Ah, yes. Ghillie suits. Using simulated thick brush and scrub to disguise yourself in the woody hills of the Seattle Downtown. nyahnyah.gif
VykosDarkSoul
the point of the Ghillie suit comment was to be an example, and in the example provided they were not in downtown seattle, you could just as easily substitue Urban pattern Camo suit, or RPC Full Body suit, the point is that infiltration would be used to get TO your hiding spot, and Disguise would be used to set up your hiding spot, it also takes more time to set up, you can break line of sight and make an infilitration roll quick, Disquise is one of those skills that takes a little time and effort.
almost normal
QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ May 29 2012, 11:15 AM) *
the point of the Ghillie suit comment was to be an example, and in the example provided they were not in downtown seattle, you could just as easily substitue Urban pattern Camo suit, or RPC Full Body suit,


No, you really couldn't. Ghillie suits are something that are made on the spot, using an area's natural resources. A camo suit is just as effective if used by a trained scout, or a joe schlub. The only skill required is picking the right camo, and that's something that can be done with a data search or contact. While I applaud trying to get more use out of an underused skill, this just isn't a valid time to use it. Some people seem to be watching too many war movies, and confusing what they see for what should happen in a game. Disguise is great if you're trying to hide in the midst of dead bodies and rubble while trying to get the perfect shot, if you're in the middle of a war. I can hardly imagine a situation that would see the range of longarm snipers coming into play, while simultaneously hiding from active foot patrols that are walking a few feet away, while better, less accessible cover was available.

Are you sniping several feet back from a window? Awesome, you're using infiltration and firearms. Are you trying to find the right window to shoot from while remaining hidden? Awesome, you're using infiltration.

Yerameyahu
That's exactly what the whole thread has been talking about:
QUOTE
Isn't Disguise the more appropriate skill for a concealed sniper? They aren't ducking into shadows and creeping around guards, they're blending into the terrain.
So, sure, you can cherry-pick situations when Disguise isn't used. There are also many situations where it is.
almost normal
*facepalm*

It's cherry picking to find a situation where disguise is used in an urban sniping environment.
_Pax._
QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ May 29 2012, 10:15 AM) *
the point of the Ghillie suit comment was to be an example, and in the example provided they were not in downtown seattle, [...]

Depending on where you are, a ghillie suit could still be useful. It'd just have to be specifically adjusted for the locale in which you intend to use it - IOW, a Disguise roll to see how good you did with it.
VykosDarkSoul
Oh and as a sidenote? One of the specialization options for Disguise is Camouflage....just sayin nyahnyah.gif
Yerameyahu
QUOTE
in an urban sniping environment
If you *start* by stipulating that, duh.
almost normal
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 29 2012, 12:58 PM) *
If you *start* by stipulating that, duh.


ohplease.gif

So if we "*start* by stipulating" that SR takes place in stereotypical SR locales, then your argument falls apart?

Understood and out.
_Pax._
QUOTE (VykosDarkSoul @ May 29 2012, 01:48 PM) *
Oh and as a sidenote? One of the specialization options for Disguise is Camouflage....just sayin nyahnyah.gif

Exactly.

And in fact, even the "hiding behind a wall, peeking out with yor gun" ...? Can be affected by camoflage: a carefully chosen wall, with the hole perhaps being MADE by the sniper for the express purpose of shooting through it, yet remaining un-notice-worthy.

IOW, "a Hide", a.k.a. "duck blind": a camoflaged position, rather than a camoflaged person.
VykosDarkSoul
Ya know, despite what D&D has taught us, trolls arent afraid of fire, or at least, not afraid to flame nyahnyah.gif

Edited because, well, yeah it was kinda snarky lol
VykosDarkSoul
Oh, something else I thought to add, I would say those looking for you would start to get more and more of a bonus to find you the more you shoot.
Yerameyahu
My argument is that a "sniper" who is "in a concealed position" is often (and I specifically didn't say 'always') Disguise. It has nothing to do with typical locations. In 'typical SR', there are no concealed snipers, because it's boring and often impossible. So. smile.gif If you actually read what people say for once…
Darkeus
I would have to agree with Yerameyahu.

You Infiltrate to get into position or sneak somewhere without being seen.

You would probably use Disguise to conceal and camouflage yourself. That is what the skill descriptions would lead me to believe.
Umidori
QUOTE (almost normal @ May 29 2012, 09:05 AM) *
Ah, yes. Ghillie suits. Using simulated thick brush and scrub to disguise yourself in the woody hills of the Seattle Downtown. nyahnyah.gif

Or using simulated anything to break up your silhouette and blend into your surroundings.

A few unrealistic examples.





And a few realistic ones.





All it takes to make a ghillie suit is debris commonly found in the surrounding area. The first ghillie suits were literally made out of real brush and scrub, they didn't just similate it via strips of cloth. And while hiding under a pile of loose trash doesn't constitute as a proper "suit", the effect can still be the same, even if you can't take it with you.

~Umi
almost normal
It was my understanding, and a quick search confirms this, that modern ghillie suits are mostly netting, with the wearer utilizing local terrain and resources to compose a unique camouflage

Just so we're clear on this, let's check the definitions.

QUOTE
Infiltration (Agility)
Infiltration is the skill used when a character wants to sneak around
undetected by either other characters or security sensors.


Okay. Pretty sure we all got that.

QUOTE
Disguise (Intuition)
When a character wants to take on a false appearance of some kind,
she uses the Disguise skill. This is true whether she wants to look like
someone else or blend into the background.


So if someone wants to create a disguise to blend into the background, they can use disguise and create something up. If someone has a location that doesn't need modifying to blend in, they can do that just fine with infiltration. The key here is taking on the false appearance. Well, what's the alternative?


No disguise.


No disguise.


No disguise.

Arguably, there's little benefit to taking the disguise skill, it's as effective in combat as the armorer skill. An armorer can make you an effective weapon, a disguise expert can craft you an effective means of cover, when none currently exists. Fortunately, in the stereotypical SR world, cover is abundant and common.
Yerameyahu
But that's not the point. The point is that you definitely use Disguise if you're a sniper 'concealing' yourself, 'blending into the terrain', etc., which is what some people asked. You can argue that this never happens in SR, but that's not relevant.
almost normal
That's not what the rules say. Concealment is infiltration. Pretending to be concealment is disguise.
BishopMcQ
Going all the way back to the OP, "hiding on a crane" would be infiltration in my book--there is no terrain per se to blend in with for the use of Disguise. For field work, with terrain I concur that Disguise is a good choice.

In a pinch, a good illusion may do the work as well, presuming you're not targeting an astrally present entity or someone with security which is astrally present.
Darkeus
QUOTE (almost normal @ May 30 2012, 01:15 AM) *
That's not what the rules say. Concealment is infiltration. Pretending to be concealment is disguise.


Then what would be the reasoning behind making camouflage a Specialization of Disguise and not Infiltration?

Umidori
Using camouflage isn't just wearing the camo. In fact you can camouflage yourself without wearing any "camo" at all. What actually matters is using cover appropriately, picking the exact section of terrain you're going to blend into, minding your sightlines, being aware of your silhouette, and even more importantly limiting your movement.

Camouflage that works well against one background might be drastically less effective against a slightly different background in the same environment. Camouflage that blends in exactly when you're motionless can be instantly ruined by moving even slightly. And while you might be practically invisible while sitting, crouching, or lying prone near an appropriate background, all you need to do is stand up against the sky to be completely obvious.

The original question was about a sniper on a crane. To reach the top of the crane, they Infiltrate, because they're in motion. Once there, they settle down into a hidden shooting position, which is their Disguise roll. They aren't moving, so they have to pick a spot that conceals them, taking into consideration their background. It's almost 100% required that the sniper go prone in this position, because otherwise they're gonna contrast with the sky quite plainly. If there's some sort of lip on top of the crane that they can lie behind for cover, they need to use that to conceal themselves from view. If there isn't a direct barrier to block line of sight, they need to lay down on a section of the crane that has an uneven silhouette, such that their own silhouette doesn't stand out like a bump on a log. They should also try to pick a spot that doesn't contrast too highly with whatever they are wearing - almost any other color is probably better than a section painted bright construction yellow, for example. Oh, and if they can camouflage their shots as well by timing them to coincide with other ambient sounds? Even better.

You have to make a lot of quick judgements about the terrain (read surroundings, meaning everything around you, pedants) and your own appearance in or against it. That's why Disguise is an Intuition skill - you need to have an intuitive grasp of what will make you stand out and what will help conceal you.

In contrast, Infiltration is an Agility skill. It deals with how well you can control your body, how well you can move quickly without making noise, how well you can duck and weave and stalk and shimmy through terrain when no one is directly looking. Infiltration means ducking behind crates or into shadows, peering around corners and scurrying like hell when the guard's back is turned. Infiltration means moving at the right time, to the right place, with the right about of care to remain unseen, unheard, and undetected - not because you are blending in, but because you are actively hiding. If the box you were crouched behind suddenly vanished, anyone looking your way would suddenly see you.

And all of that is in line with the one thing that ultimately matters anyway. The RAW.

"Infiltration is the skill used when a character wants to sneak around undetected by either other characters or security sensors."
"When a character... wants to look like someone else or blend into the background... she uses the Disguise skill."

Sneaking up the crane? Infiltration.
Taking shots from a static position once on the crane? Disguise.

I'm sorry guys, you can't just rely on your high Agility and a single Stealth Skill. You can't Infiltrate to pick a pocket, you can't Infiltrate to Shadow someone, and you can't Infiltrate to hide in plain sight. This isn't WoW and you aren't playing Rogues.

~Umi
Aerospider
QUOTE (Umidori @ May 30 2012, 06:45 AM) *
In contrast, Infiltration is an Agility skill. It deals with how well you can control your body, how well you can move quickly without making noise, how well you can duck and weave and stalk and shimmy through terrain when no one is directly looking. Infiltration means ducking behind crates or into shadows, peering around corners and scurrying like hell when the guard's back is turned. Infiltration means moving at the right time, to the right place, with the right about of care to remain unseen, unheard, and undetected - not because you are blending in, but because you are actively hiding. If the box you were crouched behind suddenly vanished, anyone looking your way would suddenly see you.

...

Sneaking up the crane? Infiltration.
Taking shots from a static position once on the crane? Disguise.

I'm sorry guys, you can't just rely on your high Agility and a single Stealth Skill. You can't Infiltrate to pick a pocket, you can't Infiltrate to Shadow someone, and you can't Infiltrate to hide in plain sight. This isn't WoW and you aren't playing Rogues.

~Umi

Emphasis mine.

So a character with maxed out Infiltration and no Disguise is invisible when running through the shadows but soon as he stops moving he's easily spotted?

I don't buy it. A sniper using a concealed position without wearing any specially-crafted camouflage is hiding. And there's nothing illogical about using Agility for this - the muscle-control that got you to the position is also what's going to keep you motionless in what is in all likelihood a compact and uncomfortable pose.

The process of infiltrating is clearly intended to be abstract, or at the very least abstractable. Sneaking past a guard will often mean stopping several times rather than being in constant motion. Is it sensible that a Disguise roll be made each time followed by a fresh Infiltration roll? Are the GM and player to work out exactly how many times they have to stop and make these rolls?

Umidori
The difference is that Infiltration is ACTIVELY hiding.

You can Infiltrate into a room full of guards, and keep infiltrating for as long as you like. The notion there is that you are in there slipping between many different hiding places as the situation changes. If a guard turns his gaze toward you, you have to move to stay out of his field of view. And all of that fits into the abstraction of Infiltration, because it isn't static and you aren't blending in to a background - you're ACTIVELY avoiding line of sight.

Once you shoot one of the guards though, even with a silencer, you're no longer hidden. You get a full surprise round to wreck them, you shouldn't also get free invisibility until they make enough perception rolls to see you, and you can't re-infiltrate mid fight unless your GM says so, and only then if you run somewhere out of their field of view first and take the requisite action to infiltrate, preventing you from shooting during that action phase.

You wanna sneak around on top of a crane all day long? Fine, go ahead. But the minute you start sniping, you have a choice - either take your surprise round and fire away while they're caught flat footed, with combat then progressing as normal after that, or Disguise once and set the detection threshold for as long as you stay in one spot without moving or being spotted.

The only sort of case I'd make an exception is when a sniper is firing from a window in a building with many other windows, or similar. They theoretically have the entire building to sneak around in between shots, so I'd allow Infiltration if they're changing their window between shots. But if they're sitting in a single spot with the blinds drawn, they're attempting to blend into the background in a static manner, so I'd call that Disguise. Therefor they'd have a fixed threshold to be spotted - a keen observer looking at the appropriate window WILL see the glint of the scope or some other small telltale if they get enough hits.

Edit: I had wrote Light of Sight instead of Line of Sight. *facepalm*

~Umi
almost normal
QUOTE (Umidori @ May 30 2012, 12:45 AM) *
"Infiltration is the skill used when a character wants to sneak around undetected by either other characters or security sensors."
"When a character... wants to look like someone else or blend into the background... she uses the Disguise skill."


Wow. That's nauseatingly disingenuous. I posted the rules on this self same page, yet you felt the need to edit them? Well, let's see what you left out, and let's add in your ellipsis for the added emphasis to make it plainly obvious that you were being intentionally deceptive.

QUOTE
Disguise (Intuition)
When a character... wants to take on a false appearance of some kind,
she uses the Disguise skill.
This is true whether she ...wants to look like
someone else or blend into the background.


If you were trolling me, well done, you succeeded. If not... Your edits are just embarrassing.
Yerameyahu
Blending into the background is taking on a false appearance. Editing that for brevity is entirely correct.

Taking on a false appearance is exactly what we're talking about.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Ditto... Yerameyahu and Umidori have the right of it.
Halinn
False appearance, in addition to meaning 'the appearance of another person', can also be 'the appearance of not being a person', which would be the pertinent thing when trying not to be spotted.
Neko Asakami
FWIW, A few years ago, I had a pretty similar discussion with an acquaintance who happened to be a former sniper. What he told me about his training and his techniques pretty much lined up with what Umidori is saying and it's how I run things in my game.

And Almost Normal, adding in the extra bit about "taking on false appearance" backs up Umidori too. Blending into the background=using camo to make it appear like you're not there (Not being there being the "false appearance"). The rules are really pretty clear about it.
Umidori
My favorite part? I was the first person in the thread to quote the rule in it's entirety to begin with.

But I suppose that was part of my clever troll plan all along.

~Umi
VykosDarkSoul
QUOTE (Umidori @ May 30 2012, 01:49 PM) *
My favorite part? I was the first person in the thread to quote the rule in it's entirety to begin with.

But I suppose that was part of my clever troll plan all along.

~Umi


lol, I thought about it, I really did, I had my friend copy them out of the book and email them to me at work so I could review them.....then I realized who was flaming so hard over it and I decided that I didnt want to feed him, and I didnt have to, you did it for me smile.gif YAY!
Darkeus
Lol, I get the idea that everybody is arguing in circles here....
CanRay
QUOTE (Darkeus @ May 30 2012, 05:20 PM) *
Lol, I get the idea that everybody is arguing in circles here....
It's Dumpshock, we call that Tuesday.
Darkeus
QUOTE (CanRay @ May 30 2012, 06:41 PM) *
It's Dumpshock, we call that Tuesday.



Lol, I have been here since 2006. Yes, I would call this a every week occurrence. smile.gif
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