That is why I think they work better as positive modifiers for the infiltration roll rather than negative ones for the perception check.

Also, one hit on the disguise roll may not equal a +1 or a -1 on the perception check. A GM can say that the difficulty of urban camoflague in this particular case is a ratio of 3 success for each point of modfier due to the difficulty of matching the varying terrain that you're trying to blend in with.

Hmm, good point about the Invisibility thing, and silencers. I'll leave the camo modifiers alone for now, and see how the upcoming campaign turns out.

Or even better, positive modifiers to the disguise roll the results of which can result in positive modifiers on an infiltration check to hide/remain undetected

Disguise doesn't work that way.


So a sniper who gets 3 hits on their Disguise Roll has a perception threshold of 3. Anyone trying to perceive them has to get three hits on a perception roll. This roll is modified as normal. For the case of the sniper, it'd probably be things like -3 for 'Object/sound far away', +2 for 'Object/sound stands out in some way' (unless they time their shots to ambient sounds like train horns or something), +3 for 'Perceiver is actively looking/listening for it' once they realize they're under fire, -4 for a silencer or -6 for an internal one, maybe -1 to hearing for electronic firing, -X for visibility modifiers, +Y for perception enhancements, -4 for a chameleon suit or camouflage...

To be honest, Disguise can get kind of ridiculous. With a skill of 6, specialization in camouflage, and say a pretty good intuition of 4, that's 12 dice rolled, meaning the average threshold for perception is 4 hits, which on the Perception Test Table is in the Hidden/Micro/Silent category, with typical examples including secret doors, needles in haystacks, and subvocal speech. If you roll well or use edge and get something like 7 or 8 hits, you're just absurdly hard to spot, particularly with modifiers in your favor.

That said, how many people actually even put ONE point into Disguise, much less six with a specialization?

~Umi

The camoflage or chameleon suit would only apply to visual perception tests, not hearing. Granted, localising a sound can be a bit tricky, but even if you don't know EXACTLY where on the crane that sniper is, narrowing it down to "on top of that crane" is neough for ... wait for it ... suppressive fire, while your melee specialist runs over and starts climbing the crane. HEH.


... sounds like a Marine Sniper, to me.

Well, My Oni Ninja has several skill ranks in Disguise (3 or 4, If I remember correctly) along with a Specialty; and a Special Ops Character with the Stealth Group at about 5 (Split with Specialties). Some concepts absolutely demand it. I tend to get it at rank 2-3 for most of my other characters, eventually.

Hey, I usually go with the stupid simple solution in gaming (Not necesarrily RAW by any stretch). Stupid question then does disguise take precedence versus infiltration and vice versa. Technically by raw every time he stops he's under camoflogue rules, and then when he shifts his rear end or scratches his nose (moving-and please note I'm giving absurd example here--common sense not withstanding) infiltration takes over. Also I'm at a disconnect as to why standing still after infiltration would then be disguise cause you're trying to look like a tree. Does diguise apply when instead of trying to look like a tree your trying to hide behind it....again this seems like the problem of having to have 2 skills to effectively do the one job of sneaking around.

By RAW Umi your explanation sounds right, but that does not mean it is the best solution to how to handle it. Case in point, the chameleon suit gives a -4 to perception checks, it is funtioning like camo. However, by raw camoflage is an opposed test......so a person with 0 disguise uses the reuthenium to comoflague himself (basically at -1 Intuition) therby making the spotter spot at -4 dice, and needing to have net successes.

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the RAW (I'm AFB). Until today I always assumed disguise was for disguising yourself and not hiding yopurself. Hiding was always infiltration.

I have to address this because it is killing me, and no-one else has said anything...

Where is everyone getting the idea that a Chameleon Suit provides a -6 to Perception Dice Pools?

Here is the relevant text...



It is quite clear that the modifier is a -4, not a -6.

And now I return you to your regularly scheduled topic.

Stop. It's not.

It was cited as such here, and I had no compelling reason to distrust that reference, so I didn't bother double-checking it.

I actually correctly cited the -4 modifier from memory. Go me!

Also, for those still confused about the "stopping while infiltrating" thing...

If you infiltrate into a building, stopping behind cover and out of sight is still part of the Infiltration roll. As I mentiond in a previous post, Infiltration is about remaining out of line of sight. If you infiltrate into a building and stop behind a crate, you can quite easily continue to infiltrate. Doing so will mean that if a patrolling guard starts walking your way and is going to see you, you don't just sit still and let him establish line of sight, you move as necessary to circle around a pillar, duck behind a new piece of cover, whatever is needed to remain out of line of sight.

If, however, you infiltrate through the middle of a large, open room in full darkness and suddenly the lights go on, you now have nothing to hide behind. Anyone looking your way is going to pretty much instantly perceive you, because you are no longer out of line of sight. (Although you might have Surprise at least.)

In the case of a sniper on a crane, it's not so much the fact that the sniper isn't moving that is making it impossible to continue Infiltrating. We've already reached a consensus that getting onto the crane itself would be an Infiltration roll. If they wanted to, the sniper could infiltrate up and down the crane all day long, and they would have a decent chance of escaping detection against many foes. Why? Because the sniper is not immediately obvious or in direct line of sight. It is not usual for a person to be on top of a crane arm, and hence people on the ground do not tend to look there or expect a person to be there. A strong infiltration roll helps the sniper avoid being seen NOT because they are actually hiding behind anything, but because they are moving carefully outside of direct line of sight, in what would be a normal person on the ground's peripheral vision - a portion of our vision which is predominantly concerned with detecting motion, not detail. This fits with the tying of Infiltration with Agility - the sniper is moving sneakily, low to the "ground" (the crane arm), making minimal noise, out of direct line of sight.

And in the rare case that a person on the ground DOES look up at the crane arm for some random reason? Agility, and hence Infiltration, is the primary factor in quickly reacting to get out of direct line of sight, in this case dropping prone and flat on top of the crane arm to reduce their profile, or maybe even clinging to the actual side of the crane arm opposite of the potential spotter.

But while doing all this is active Infiltration - actively responding to changes in the enemy's line of sight, ducking and weaving behind and around the bits of the crane arm to stay out of line of sight, and even perhaps stopping in one spot outside of line of sight until someone looks away - once you settle down somewhere prone or kneeling or whatever and unable to move quickly (and hence react to people looking your way), with the intent of using your actions to snipe instead of continue Infiltrating, you need to Disguise if you don't want to be seen.

The problem is that in order to snipe, you need to have line of sight to your enemy. This means, naturally enough, that they also must have some sort of line of sight to you in return. Even if you have a nicely placed ledge, or lip, or railing, or whatever on the crane arm that you are going to hide behind, that doesn't count as Infiltration. Why? Because if you're sticking a gun around a corner or over the edge in order to shoot, you are, even just barely, entering into the enemy's line of sight. They can spot the silhouette or profile of the gun, they can spot the glint of the scope, they can spot the muzzle flash, they can hear the echo of the report off the crane, they can spot a spent casing being ejected, whatever. There WILL be a telltale of some sort. It might be hard to see, particularly since the Cover you are hiding behind will add a perception modifier to spot it, but you are no longer Infiltrating because 1) you're now in unbroken line of sight, even if just barely and 2) you're no longer taking the required Complex Actions to maintain your Infiltration.

If, however, you instead make a Disguise Roll to position yourself such that, although within line of sight, you are not immediately recognizeable as a person with a gun, in contrast to a mere part of the background, you can begin to snipe freely. Because 1) although in unbroken line of sight, your Disguise skill has been utilized to minimize contrast with your environment and allow you to blend in to the background, and 2) you're not required to take a Complex Action to maintain a Disguise.

~Umi

I agree with this. I've learned to heed the words of Almost Normal, but to not feed the troll. Even trolls can be right some times (although he isn't this time). You see, there's a fine line between arrogance and confidence, and I walk that line proudly. Almost Normal, however, is very much committed to one particular side.

Sounds about right Umi.
Ducking and moving when unseen to get into position, shifting to a new position, dealing with an unforeseen complication without drawing the attention of those you are trying to avoid.
The specializations of Infiltration really do suggest this method of stealth.

However when you have to for some reason sit still watching a target (or shooting them) and you cannot afford to duck behind cover, you have to blend in. You break up your outline, muffle as many potential emissions (heat, sound, electronic, etc), and you sit still. Sensory processing centers in the brains of animals do tend to focus first on movement, on pattern and contrast second.
The specializations of Disguise support this method.

Does a runner magically become visible as a day-glo orange troll stalking through white room when they stop moving with using Infiltration, no. Until they do something that might draw attention, such as aiming a weapon, firing a weapon, coughing, etc. However when the runner needs to fire a shot without getting peppered with return fire, they need to take additional action to avoid or misdirect the attention of the folks they pissed off.

Nah. I'm not arrogant. I'm like the joker. The actual joker, the one no one likes. I don't say things to be mean, I say what I feel at the time, which is usually a matter of which chemical is winning the fight in my brain. I usually think I'm being funny, which is enough for me.

This is the way I see it too. A sniper could use Infiltration to get into position for a shot, but (assuming he wins the opposed test vs target's Perception) once the Surprise round is over it is initiative as normal and the cover is blown. If the sniper wants to keep shooting from a concealed position, he will need to use Disguise to camouflage himself first.

I posed the crane-sniper question to some of my group as a thought experiment earlier tonight.

After puzzling it over a bit (without the core book handy, just a list of skills), they came to the conclusion that the [actual] majority has: You use Infiltration to get there, you use Disguise to hide yourself from detection. They did also mention that if you're actively trying to avoid being seen by getting out of the area (moving to another point on the crane, for example) that would Infiltration again due to movement.

For once I'm glad to see that RAW actually works logically for once, at least according to my play group. I'd be interested in having other GMs pose this question to their groups to see what common consensus is among people who don't sit on message boards and argue things like we do.

While I too agree with this interpretation, it makes me wish that Disguise were handled differently, to avoid these kinds of problems.

Rather, if Disguise were rolled / used as a bonus to other skills like Infiltration, Con, or similar. Make it a Knowledge Skill maybe, or is that going too far?

Disguise - urban (Infiltration), wilderness (Infiltration), makeup (Con), something something something

don't sweat it dude. forums are made for mouthing off!

And thanks all for the discussion. very interesting. I never even considered disguise, so there you go.

Oh see, a newbie.

I understand it but I think game play wise a player's PC with no Disguise and lots of infiltration is just going to be infiltrating all the time then you just end with the disguise roll being unused (shoot move hide).

Naaa... Just means that he is defaulting on his Disguise Roll, which will tend to lead to a dead Shadowrunner, sooner rather than later.

I think you would only be able to use Infiltration to move to another part of the crane if you could break LoS with the targets first. Infiltration ain't Invisibility, and the targets would at the very least get the actively looking checks for their Perception tests if you did manage to break LoS.

So, in Umidori's earlier example of a sniper popping up at various windows of a disused building, sure. But trying to break LoS on an exposed position like a crane would be nigh impossible to my mind, especially if there is only one way down ...

Infiltration doesn't help you when you're in the middle of an empty parking lot. Or the use of a LOT of Edge.

As my group has found out, sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

Personally, for the OP situation of sniper on crane, once the party hacker figures it out, hack crane, rotate crane, then stop crane...inertia will do the rest.

Indeed... Luck is a good thing to have on your side...

Gecko Grip is your friend! A couple of attachment points, and a belt harness. You'll be hurting, but it beats the fall.You make your own luck.

I don't think you'd even need Gecko Grip. Cranes don't actually move very quickly. This is by design.

~Umi

Or leach it from others, as our resident Mr. Lucky apparently does....

Don't mention Mr. Lucky!

Why Not?
Poor guy, the mistreatment he has received over the years has made him a bit sad and lonely. I think he would like to have some friends. Maybe even come out and play from time to time.

Why not? Because having you and Cain in the same threads is a sure way to annoy us mods to no end.

Oh I dunno, TJs been playing nice. Some others though...

Thank You Good Sir... *bows*

So the difference between the two terms is if it involves setting up a duck blind or similar camoflagued position (such in a crane), you go with disguise not infiltration. If it involves staying out of line of sight, infiltration.

Don't want to put words into Umidori's mouth (reading the quoted post on its own, it seems he is arguing that Infiltration won't help with sniping as to get a bead on your target you have to establish LoS and ergo get in sight of the target ... although looking upthread his position is that Infiltration can work with snipers if they can break LoS and move around with ease [the example he used was a sniper firing from various windows/floors in a deserted building, I believe]).

To my mind, the key difference is that getting the drop on someone using Infiltration means that after the surprise round it is initiative as normal and the target knows exactly where the sniper is. If the sniper uses Disguise to camouflage his position, he/she may be able to remain hidden dependent on whether or not the target(s) beat his Camouflage hits threshold with their Perception test.

Pretty much, Midas, I'm thinking the same thing. And Infiltration is what is used to "gt into position" for that first shot. (That, or being in position LOOOOONG before your targets have potential LOS on where you intend to hide, I suppose.)

It looks like this is boiling down to intent...

If you indend to be moving from place to place use Infiltration...

If you indend to sit still (or at least not move around much) use Disguise...

Does that about sum it up?

-D

With the above noted proviso that once you open fire, the Infiltrator is automatically spotted but the sniper using camouflage Disguise is not, yes.

It doesn't seem like the Infiltrator should be immediately spotted just for firing though. Internal silencer, sub-sonic ammo, from far away, etc...

All of those and other things like them are already covered via Perception modifiers. Once you stop spending the Complex Actions required to maintain Infiltration, you stop gaining the bonus from Infiltration - although you do keep other modifiers.

If you shoot from Infiltration, you enjoy the benefits of surprise and then after that combat runs as normal - at which point those perception modifiers will be giving you some nice bonuses even without Infiltration. If an enemy fails their Perception checks to determine your location, they suffer the Blind Fire modifer when returning fire: that's -6 to their attack test.

Now, they might still be able to hit you even with that. They may not know exactly where you are, but they might have an idea, or maybe they just make a lucky guess. Even suffering -6 and throwing only a meager pool of dice to attack, if they start unloading wide Long Bursts in your general direction, now you've got your own -5 to deal with in dodging, or a truly painful -9 if they go full auto. They may not have a clue where you really are, all they know is that someone is shooting at them, and that's enough for them to start throwing around enough lead to make most anyone hit the deck.

Infiltration, and the bonus it provides, requires a Complex Action. If you're spending your action phase sneaking, you simply cannot spend it shooting. And if you're spending it shooting, you're too busy with that to sneak. The only way to get a bonus above the ordinary bonuses you get from standard Perception Modifiers is to Disguise - because it specifically operates by being put in place beforehand and granting it's bonus for as long as the disguise stays in place and is not seen through.

~Umi

Umi, I love that description!

And don't forget that blind fire goes off of Int not Agi too, most gun-slingers aren't as smart as they are quick/agile.

-D

I know I have seen it before, but Please provide the page number for that, as I have not been able to locate it again. Information Guided Targeting (which uses Intuition) is not the same as Blind Fire...

Strange placement of 'the' aside, it's relatively clear.

Thanks... Looked and Looked, but could not find it for the life of me.
Most Appreciated.

This brings up a question. Is an intuition linked skill check based on the linked attribute (Agility in the case of firearms) or the attribute used (Intuition in the case of blind fire) in the skill check?

Would Qualia, which provides a +1 dice pool bonus for all Intuition linked skill checks, provide a +1 benefit for blind fire?

Presumably, yes.

I'd argue that a blind runner trying to open fire on opponents is going to use his Intuition to correctly intuit where to aim without being able to see, and that bonuses to his Intuition will naturally help him to more correctly intuit.

~Umi

Sooo....what would a drone use if it was blind-firing? or a Rigger firing a drone

Suppressive Fire. No blind fire penalty there....

Anecdotally, how well does this rule work? Do many people see lots of blind (or blinded) shooters, and have they had good results? Intuition *is* harder to raise than Agility, and the big penalty should make things okay. It's really only when mysads are avoiding that penalty that things might get silly, I'd think.

I have a mundane human sharpshooter that has 6 intuition so consider me a bit of a rarity. It means that if Qualia does apply to the check he only has a base dice pool that is 2 lower when blind firing but he does get the -6 penalty. I end up with 7 dice, I can't remember the exact numbers to know for sure and I'm just running off of naked dice pools (natural and augments only and I'm ignoring specialization). Consider that a character in the same situation with an average intuition is only going to see 3 or 4 in their dice pool.

It's obvious that even with blind fire, anyone who is a shooty type character still has a large enough dice pool to hit a target. The bigger question is what is the best way to go about a blind fire incident? The problem here being that depending on the nature of what is causing the blind fire there's a very good chance that the defender cannot see the attacker and consequently can be considered unaware of the attack preventing them from being able to defend against it. So at what point is it permissible for a player to make a blind fire attack against a target? This puts the defender at a disproportionate disadvantage to the attacker even though the defender is aware that the attacker is there if not necessarily aware that the attack is being made. Do you want to be making constant perception checks mid combat any time someone moves?