Melee vs. Unarmed Options

[almost normal]

Personally, if I was building a melee adept I'd take the power points I saved on pure combat potential and use them for stealth. Might not do as much damage in direct combat, but I'd still be able to hold my own AND I'd be the sneakiest sneak that ever sneaked past a sneaking parlour.

~Umi

Unless someone looks Astrally. Then you light up like a torch. =/

Stupid magic.

[Elfenlied]

Note that Unarmed Adepts do have access to Weapon Foci thanks to Hardliner Gloves.

[VykosDarkSoul]

Note that Unarmed Adepts do have access to Weapon Foci thanks to Hardliner Gloves.

worms...can of...opened! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[BishopMcQ]

Elfenlied--Many of the threads I've read before seem to take the opinion that most of the Unarmed Adept powers don't work in conjunction with the Hardliner Gloves. (Killing Hands, Elemental Strike, Smashing Blow, etc.) YMMV in what you can convince your GM of.

Almost Normal--Without active foci, wouldn't the adept basically appear the same on the astral as a mundane sneaking around? Assensing can tell the difference, but they wouldn't glow any brighter than most folks.

[almost normal]

Almost Normal--Without active foci, wouldn't the adept basically appear the same on the astral as a mundane sneaking around? Assensing can tell the difference, but they wouldn't glow any brighter than most folks.

I had figured that their active powers (which are most of them) would make them glow, much the same as a sustained spell. At the very least, their magic score would bump up the glow a bit.

[Stahlseele]

Fluff has it that every magically active thing glows like a little sun on the Astral.

[Umidori]

Ahh, that old argument. I'm not prepared to get into that in depth again right now.

I have to say that I've always found the rules for stealth WOEFULLY lacking. You'd think all the various editions they've put out, they'd have expanded upon stealth more than the stupid, vague blurb of a paragraph in SR4A, and actually directly spell out how it works for both physical and astral.

I will point out, however, that the SR4A section on Astral Perception says the following...

Like physical perception, a character using astral perception should not need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious.

And a character who is infiltrating is NOT immediately obvious. They're staying out of line of sight, hiding behind things, generally avoiding being seen.

"But how can they avoid being seen by a spirit on the astral which they themselves cannot detect?", you may ask. The same way they avoid being seen by a physical foe under the effects of an Invisibility spell, or a physical foe camouflaged under the effects of the Disguise skill, or any other foe in any other situation.

A sneaking person rolls their Infilitration to determine how well, in abstract terms, they avoid being seen. Their opponent rolls their Perception or Assensing to determine how observant they are, in abstract terms, and whether they notice the sneaking person. Those are the rules. Everything else is fluff.

~Umi

[almost normal]

Those are the rules. Everything else is fluff.
~Umi

Interactions between Astral activities and the Mundane are not, however. A torch in a hallway is obvious. A ninja sneaking down a hallway, by the universe, would be just as obvious on the astral, thanks to his glowing aura.

If you could show me otherwise, without ambiguous passages, you'd make me incredibly happy.

[UmaroVI]

Are you talking about activation and duration?

And visibility. Elemental Strike is a simple to turn on (so it locks out your ability to make an attack on the first pass, which is a huge drawback), it's visible (so you can't just leave it on all the time), and it's short enough duration that you pretty much do have to turn it on at the start of the fight.

[Dakka Dakka]

Note that Unarmed Adepts do have access to Weapon Foci thanks to Hardliner Gloves.

Yes they do, but arguably then all those nifty powers do no longer function. While you use the Unarmed Combat skill, using those gloves is not considered an unarmed attack by everyone as you are using a weapon.

Technically dwarven sonic warhammers cannot exist, but with [Element] Aura you can get something even better. Not only do your attacks (including those with a hammer) are considered sonic attacks and receive a damage boost, people that attack you get hit by the sound damage as well (by RAW even those who attack with ranged weapons)

You can also make a very defensive armed adept:
Lots of IPs
Combat Sense as much as possible
Improved Ability (Melee Skill of choice)
Two Weapon Style
Disarm
Escrima

[almost normal]

And visibility. Elemental Strike is a simple to turn on (so it locks out your ability to make an attack on the first pass, which is a huge drawback), it's visible (so you can't just leave it on all the time), and it's short enough duration that you pretty much do have to turn it on at the start of the fight.

That's just erroneous, seemingly intentionally so.

Most, if not all encounters fall into two categories.

Encounters that Melee characters start.
Encounters that Melee characters sit out.

I've seen firsthand, repeatedly, where a player gets jumpy and pulls his weapon and starts firing, and for the rest of the combat, the melee guy is stuck helplessly running towards combat for the next 2-3 turns.

No, in the actual game, the melee character tends to have a few moments to himself before combat starts. The lost simple action is nearly meaningless.

[BishopMcQ]

I had figured that their active powers (which are most of them) would make them glow, much the same as a sustained spell. At the very least, their magic score would bump up the glow a bit.

Fair cop. As has been pointed out, the rules are a bit vague. I can see an argument for active adept powers glowing brighter--it would be a choice then to have adepts suppress their powers like a technomancer suppressing their brain to avoid a scan. Something to think about...

[Achsin]

@Dakka
How does the [Element] Aura do damage to ranged attackers by RAW?

Any successful physical melee attack against the subject
also means that the attacker must resist similar damage from
the aura. The aura’s Damage Value equals the spell’s Force.

Also for the defensive-ish oriented adept, don't forget to take a level of Counterstrike and put some of those extra parry/block dice to double use.

[almost normal]

Fair cop. As has been pointed out, the rules are a bit vague. I can see an argument for active adept powers glowing brighter--it would be a choice then to have adepts suppress their powers like a technomancer suppressing their brain to avoid a scan. Something to think about...

I like that for combat powers. Tune down the enhanced initiative, killing hands and all that. It'd be tough to do with powers you're using to remain stealthy, however. Increased Attribute (agility), Increased non-combat skills, traceless step and the like.

[Elfenlied]

Would a warhammer prepared as a vessel and possessed by a spirit with Elemental Aura( Sonic) qualify?

[Stahlseele]

The complete Hammer, including the grip, would be also under the influence of the aura.
So the wielder will suffer too.

[Dakka Dakka]

Interactions between Astral activities and the Mundane are not, however. A torch in a hallway is obvious. A ninja sneaking down a hallway, by the universe, would be just as obvious on the astral, thanks to his glowing aura.

If you could show me otherwise, without ambiguous passages, you'd make me incredibly happy.

The ninja is just as glowing whether he is mundane or awakened. On the other hand a hiding ninja needs to be spotted before he is obvious, whether with mundane or astral perception. Everything that is opaque on the physical plane is opaque to the astral observer as well. Glass is even opaque on the astral plane. The sneaker can employ the same techniques against an astral observer as against a physical one.

Also while the adept may have detectable powers active this does not make him more noticeable as any other character. There are only different "brightness levels" between auras of nonliving objects and the auras of living creatures and magical effects. Astral Forms are not brighter, they are just tangible on the astral plane.

@Achsin: Sorry, I got that confused with the Critter Power Energy Aura:

Any successful attack against a critter with Energy Aura means the attacker also takes damage from the attack. The attacker must make a Damage Resistance Test against a Damage Value equal to the critter’s Magic. Impact armor protects with half its value.

Too bad Counterstrike does not work with Two Weapon Style.

[Yerameyahu]

The whole possessed weapon aura thing only works if the *spirit* is making the attacks. It's not a free-lunch super-enchantment.

[almost normal]

Also while the adept may have detectable powers active this does not make him more noticeable as any other character.

There are only different "brightness levels" between auras of nonliving objects and the auras of ... magical effects.

Given that the whole of adepts rely on their magical powers and effects, your two statements don't seem to match, which is my initial problem.

[Elfenlied]

The whole possessed weapon aura thing only works if the *spirit* is making the attacks. It's not a free-lunch super-enchantment.

Yep, it's akin to wielding a plasteel homonculus shaped like a Warhammer and whackin' people with it. Which you gotta admit is something any dwarf worth his Mohawk would do and totally not phallic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Fair cop. As has been pointed out, the rules are a bit vague. I can see an argument for active adept powers glowing brighter--it would be a choice then to have adepts suppress their powers like a technomancer suppressing their brain to avoid a scan. Something to think about...

And if the Adepts powers were visible as such, then they leave an Astral Signature of those powers wherever they go, which most Adepts are ill-prepared to remove.

Pretty sure that Adept powers don't Astrally Glow innately, except for a few obvious ones, like Elemental Strike.

[Dakka Dakka]

The whole possessed weapon aura thing only works if the *spirit* is making the attacks. It's not a free-lunch super-enchantment.

You don't possess the weapon, you possess the wielder. And BTW I'm sure it should have been melee attacks only for Energy Aura as well.

Given that the whole of adepts rely on their magical powers and effects, your two statements don't seem to match, which is my initial problem.

For a physical analog: A person wearing clothing in bright colors in front of a white wall does not get more noticeable if he attaches buttons in different bright colors to his clothes.

@Signatures: No Problem for the Adept: 1) the signatures are on him as his powers affect him and not his environment. 2) Adept powers do not have a Force, so they remain exactly zero time.

[Yerameyahu]

That's not what Elfenlied said, Dakka Dakka, and then you're not playing your own character. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But, that person does get more audible if he attaches additional noisemakers (albeit not linearly, heh).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You don't possess the weapon, you possess the wielder. And BTW I'm sure it should have been melee attacks only for Energy Aura as well.

For a physical analog: A person wearing clothing in bright colors in front of a white wall does not get more noticeable if he attaches buttons in different bright colors to his clothes.

@Signatures: No Problem for the Adept: 1) the signatures are on him as his powers affect him and not his environment. 2) Adept powers do not have a Force, so they remain exactly zero time.

A spell (say Increased Reflexes) effects a Person and not always the environment, and yet, there is still a Signature for the casting of the spell. So, funny man ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) how do you account for that?

For an Adept, his powers work at peak efficiency, so I would set his Magic as his equivalent Force Rating. If he left a Signature. Which he may not. I am a big proponent that Adept powers leave no signature, but Almost-Normal's argument requires that they leave a signature if they are visible in the astral while active.

[Dakka Dakka]

A spell (say Increased Reflexes) effects a Person and not always the environment, and yet, there is still a Signature for the casting of the spell. So, funny man ( (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) how do you account for that?

I don't know what you are trying to say. I never said anything about the signatures of spells. Adept powers however leave signatures on the adept who uses them and they remain for zero time. See the rules work as we both intend. The signature is created because it is a power, but cannot be detected because it is gone already.

For an Adept, his powers work at peak efficiency, so I would set his Magic as his equivalent Force Rating. If he left a Signature. Which he may not. I am a big proponent that Adept powers leave no signature, but Almost-Normal's argument requires that they leave a signature if they are visible in the astral while active.

This is a houserule and one that severely nerfs adepts. While mages can cast low force spells, every adept power (even rating 1) then stays for MAG hours. Additionally mages can erase those signatures while adepts cannot unless they use astral perception, which also is a power and leaves a signature....