Melee vs. Unarmed Options

[Stahlseele]

Is the Delay Damage Power still there in SR4?

[Umidori]

I've seen firsthand, repeatedly, where a player gets jumpy and pulls his weapon and starts firing, and for the rest of the combat, the melee guy is stuck helplessly running towards combat for the next 2-3 turns.

What sorts of situations are these melee guys in where they're getting shot at from half to three quarters of a football field away (50-75m), and can't find cover? Moreover at that sort of range, Pistols, Machine Pistols, and Shotguns loaded with Flechette rounds can no longer even reach the target, SMGs and Shotguns loaded with Slug rounds are suffering -3 for Long Range, and even Assault Rifles are suffering -1 for Medium Range.

~Umi

[Yerameyahu]

… Is that very hard to imagine? That's literally what optics are for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

Okay, so the longarms can all have their range modifier reduced, yes, very good. The one-handed weapons cannot reach the target, though.

And we're also assuming a 50-75m open area with no cover, presumably. Which surely isn't that common in Seattle, yeah? Even in the boonies you're gonna have trees and foliage, hills and gullies, fences and buildings, etc.

So maybe almost normal likes to run in military style campaigns, taking part in Desert Wars or something, where everyone is running around with longarms in open terrain?

~Umi

[Yerameyahu]

It's possible, which is the point: it's easy to imagine scenarios matching that description, even though they might not be the norm in our own games. Assault rifles and longarms are hardly rare in the discussions around here, and he can't always be in cover if he's also running full speed toward the combat.

[Umidori]

Except that according to the turn-based combat system, he can.

Bullets start flying. Melee Dude gets second slot on Initiative, runs 25m and takes cover. Everyone else spends the turn shooting at each other, anyone who shoots at Melee Dude has to deal with his cover modifiers, and possibly cannot even see him to shoot him. Yeah, it sucks that he has to sit around waiting to move because of the way Movement only occurs over the course of a Combat Turn rather than per Initiative Pass, but he CAN take cover successfully while moving unless he's charging across a barren field with absolutely nothing to hide behind.

Second Combat Turn rolls around, he runs the remaining 25m to the enemies and starts to get medieval on their asses. They're now in melee, taking -3 for any ranged attacks they make and suffering -3 to dodge any ranged attacks they receive.

In the case of a 75m gap, just run and take cover twice before running up and engaging in melee. At most you're out of the fight for 2 turns. If that's too much for you, invest in a backup ranged weapon - even with crappy skill in it, if you just lay down supressing fire while running forward, it's still something.

~Umi

[Yerameyahu]

No. If you're out of cover during the turn, you're out of cover during the turn. You certainly can't use your full move rate on the one pass. Movement doesn't work like that. My point, however, is that he's wasting time ducking behind things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Even if the rules did work like that, I wouldn't want to be the one defending such a gross abuse.

[Falconer]

A weapon adept will generally beat an unarmed adept.

Here's the reason why... weapon foci add dice and reach to the melee combat tests on both attack and defense. This is something NOT available to melee adepts (at least not without essence loss from weapon focus cyber). They toss more dice so are more likely to avoid getting hit, and are more likely to hit in turn.

The flipside is that an unarmed adept is far more likely to hit like a sledgehammer and pound right through things when it does manage to connect. Similarly the points that a unarmed adept spends on things like killing hands, elemental strike, etc... down the tree.. the weapon adept can drop into counter skills like combat sense, counter-strike, and similar.... oppurtunity cost. Essence lost if he does go for a focus... but then since it's cyber attacking the active foci astrally attacks the adept directly as well.

It's the classic problem of if one guy is always rolling 16 dice, and the other one only 12... the guy with 16 is almost always going to come out on top. Not impossible... but 8 out of 10 he will.


PS: as far as I'm concerned... a cyberarm enchanted as a weapon focus is fair game... even bone lacing... (cyber only, not bio as per FAQ). But something like a hardliner glove is a weapon with an independent damage code which just happens to use the unarmed combat skill. In practice it's no difference than an defiance ex shocker used in melee which also happens to use unarmed but no one would claim the ability to use say penetrating strike with.

[Stahlseele]

How does distance strike work in regards to reach anyway?
Does it give Magic Attribute Reach Bonus?
Or does the other Person simply not get to defend himself?

[Elfenlied]

I always thought distance strike changed it to a ranged attack.

[phlapjack77]

SM pg 176
"Though the attack is rolled as a normal unarmed attack (ignoring Reach modifiers), the defender resists the attack as if it were a ranged attack (ie. the defender may just roll Reaction or go on full defense)."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is a houserule and one that severely nerfs adepts. While mages can cast low force spells, every adept power (even rating 1) then stays for MAG hours. Additionally mages can erase those signatures while adepts cannot unless they use astral perception, which also is a power and leaves a signature....

I know, but that seems like what Almost_Normal is saying to me. Maybe I misunderstood.
Sort of the same reason that a Background Count should not affect Adepts (Previous Editions), but does kind of thing.

[almost normal]

This is a houserule and one that severely nerfs adepts.

Evidently, you don't understand what a houserule is.

If the 'Fluff', or description of astral says that while astrally perceiving, All females are blue and all males are red, then that's the way it works. If you AP and look at an androgynous person, their sex would be clear as day.

As it stands, the description of astral states that magical effects are highlighted and obvious, and there can be no argument that an adept's entire repertoire is anything *but* magical.

Frankly, ignoring the way the universe works because you don't like the consequences? That's the houserule.

[almost normal]

A weapon adept will generally beat an unarmed adept.

Here's the reason why... weapon foci add dice and reach to the melee combat tests on both attack and defense.

Except that's why an unarmed adept will mop the floor with Swordy McSwordsbain.

Swordy adds a small amount of dice to defend.
Fist-o adds his entire armor pool.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Except that's why an unarmed adept will mop the floor with Swordy McSwordsbain.

Swordy adds a small amount of dice to defend.
Fist-o adds his entire armor pool.

Have to hit Swordy first... You don't need Armor if you don't get hit. So, how is Fisty avoiding being hit, exactly, when he is spending his points to be a One man Wrecking Crew, while the Melee Adept can make a full defense AND attack in the same action?

There are so many variables involved that I cannot see how anyone can say that one is definitely better over the other. Hell, My Thrown Weapon adept trumps both the Melee and Unarmed adept, if you want to go that route.

[almost normal]

Have to hit Swordy first... You don't need Armor if you don't get hit.

/sigh

What focus strength are you assuming to use that renders such a high increased pool so as to make Swordy unhittable?

So, how is Fisty avoiding being hit,

He's not. He's assuming the occasional hit gets through. He just gets the benefit of good armor, while Swordy does not.

Hell, My Thrown Weapon adept trumps both the Melee and Unarmed adept, if you want to go that route.

And my penis is bigger then yours.

The point of the discussion is whether on a fixed PP budget, a Swordy guy can compete with a Fisty guy. So far, I've yet to see numbers that say he can.

[VykosDarkSoul]

/sigh

What focus strength are you assuming to use that renders such a high increased pool so as to make Swordy unhittable?

How about the fact that he is in a full defense every pass without giving up his next pass

And my penis is bigger then yours.

The point of the discussion is whether on a fixed PP budget, a Swordy guy can compete with a Fisty guy. So far, I've yet to see numbers that say he can.

Every time...people try to have a discussion and you turn it into a pissing contest. Grow up.

[Grinder]

How likely is that?