Grenades and Missiles, Underpowered? Options

[Draco18s]

That's no help if it can't also blow holes in people, which is OP's issue. Ah, well. You'd think the frag AP would help with that… except it has the same effect on kevlar as on brick. Oops.

Oh I know. My point was, adding more DV isn't going to really fix things. You'll find frags being better demolition charges than demolition charges.

[Tashiro]

Oh I know. My point was, adding more DV isn't going to really fix things. You'll find frags being better demolition charges than demolition charges.

Now my head hurts.

[Yerameyahu]

Better and way cheaper!

[UmaroVI]

And let's not forget the grenade stacking rules in WAR! Did you know that if you duct tape 19 frag grenades together, you can blow up several city blocks?

[Yerameyahu]

And if you fire them at the same time, they merge into a magic bunker-busting spike-thing.

[kzt]

And if you fire them at the same time, they merge into a magic bunker-busting spike-thing.

And people wonder why I just give smiley faces to fanboys complaining about some SR4 rule that somehow isn't the perfection they see in the rest of the game...

[StealthSigma]

And let's not forget the grenade stacking rules in WAR! Did you know that if you duct tape 19 frag grenades together, you can blow up several city blocks?

Hmm. I may need to do this if I ever get a demolition mission. Sure, there might be a lot of collateral damage but I can be pretty sure that I blew up my target.

How many frag grenades to blow up skyscraper?

[Irion]

And let's not forget the grenade stacking rules in WAR! Did you know that if you duct tape 19 frag grenades together, you can blow up several city blocks?

Could you quote the rule, because I do not think War made that mistake.
Ductaping 19 frags together will however destroy almost everything in a small area..

[Jeremiah Kraye]

That would be a fun run... "Yeah, I need you to remove the opposing corp's skyscraper from the skyline... I'm tired of seeing <corp name> when I sip my soycaf looking out the window in the morning."

[Draco18s]

Could you quote the rule, because I do not think War made that mistake.
Ductaping 19 frags together will however destroy almost everything in a small area..

(Note: this is IIRC)

Math:
1 Frag grenade is 12 DV.
2 Frags are 24 DV.
19 Frags are 228 DV.

The fall-off is -2 / meter.

228 DV gives a radius of 114 meters (or a 228 meter diameter). Google tells me that the length of a standard New York block is 1/5th of a mile (0.2). Our explosion diameter is 0.14 miles.

So while, no, it's not "several city blocks" it is however, a very large area.

[Yerameyahu]

I think he was asking about the mechanism, not the effect. Are you talking about MRSI? I've never really understood it: to me, the MRSI rules are *specifically* limited to 2 shells/grenades (MGL-18 mention of 'burst fire' notwithstanding), and I'm not sure you recalculate the blast radius using the new DV:

Add the Damage Values of both rounds together to determine the total damage taken in the single MRSI attack; the Armor Penetration and blast radius do not change.

Obviously I see why you could say, 'blast radius is based on total DV, period'. But given that this is there in the rules *and* nicely weaker… might as well take the breaks you can get and declare it's a powerful, smaller attack.

Or, are you talking about a demolition rule? For example, Overlapping Blasts (p140):

treat the damage as a single blast with a Damage Values equal to the sum of the highest Damage Value of one explosion plus half the DV of the other explosions.

This only slows down the problem, though: 6 grenades is still 12+36=48.

[UmaroVI]

The latter. Draco's math is a bit off - it's 12 + (18*12)/2=120 DV, and the fall-off is -1/m, not -2/m. That's why you use Frag grenades for demolition; high explosive grenades are much less good at it because they are -2/m and less DV.

(I was thinking of slightly smaller city blocks though, more research shows you would probably need more like 39 grenades taped together to really vaporize a few city blocks. Whew! That's much saner).

[Yerameyahu]

Love it: frag grenades for demolition. Maybe explosives need to have a listed 'explosive DV', and a separate 'DV/AP/radius modifier' (e.g., frag, +2DV etc.). :/ More complication.

[Irion]

(Note: this is IIRC)

Math:
1 Frag grenade is 12 DV.
2 Frags are 24 DV.
19 Frags are 228 DV.

The fall-off is -2 / meter.

228 DV gives a radius of 114 meters (or a 228 meter diameter). Google tells me that the length of a standard New York block is 1/5th of a mile (0.2). Our explosion diameter is 0.14 miles.

So while, no, it's not "several city blocks" it is however, a very large area.

I can't find anything in the book telling that... That was my problem.

[Draco18s]

The latter. Draco's math is a bit off

I was attempting to recall the rules and was slightly wrong.

[Irion]

@UmaroVI
Where the hell is this rule, I do not find it in my book.
I only have overlapping zones. And those do not increase in range. The damage for a single target is only increased. Reduction is still calculated for every single granade. Could you please quote it or give me a page number or better the headline.

I am just totally unable to find it, silly me... Help!

[Draco18s]

@UmaroVI
Where the hell is this rule, I do not find it in my book.
I only have overlapping zones. And those do not increase in range. The damage for a single target is only increased. Reduction is still calculated for every single granade. Could you please quote it or give me a page number or better the headline.

I am just totally unable to find it, silly me... Help!

Try War!

[Irion]

I got that part, but I can't find anyting about adding the DV of explosives for all purposes.

[VykosDarkSoul]

Aye, could you post the rule please? I need more ammo on why I am not allowing WAR! , LOL.

[Draco18s]

Honestly not sure where in the book.

[UmaroVI]

Occasionally, a gamemaster will have more than one grenade
or other explosive simultaneously a ecting a single target. In these
cases, treat the damage as a single blast with a Damage Values equal
to the sum of the highest Damage Value of one explosion plus half
the DV of the other explosions. Each explosion’s DV should be
modi ed for the distance of each explosion, as if the target was
a ected by the Blast in a Con ned Space rules (p. 156, SR4A).
 e combination of overlapping blasts and con ned quarters is
known as the “puréed salsa e ect.”

Looking at it again, I think I might be mistaken and they mean to reduce each grenade separately, and calculate the modified damage rating from that. So it's actually just a 12m sphere of utter annihilation that instantly stops and doesn't scratch things that are 13m away.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, that's how I read it, UmaroVI. The same appears to go for MRSI, which is a similar situation.

[Irion]

Thanks. A bit less shocked by War! now.

Taping granades together makes your reaction roll much more important...
One meter can result in a lot less damage.

[ZeroPoint]

I just suggested this in the sister thread but I thought it would be appropriate to this conversation as well. If you want greater impact from grenades without making chunky salsa insta-TPK, you could do a flat +2~3 DV to base damage of all grenades, and then change chunky salsa to work like burst damage, giving a +2 damage per barrier within half of its max effective blast radius. Its quicker than calculating damage per rebound and re-rebound and doesn't stage up so quickly that its rediculous except in situations where it should be, such as a small closet.

I'll compare this to existing rules in a situation runners are more likely to encounter. Most runners shouldn't ever be caught in a small room with a grenade. If they did, then they should be using hand of god to save them anyway, not relying on sucky grenade rules.

However most runners are likely to run into a grenade with up to 2 nearby meaningful reflective barriers such as in a hallway. In this case, lets assume a 2 meter hallway, and a frag grenade detonates next to the wall opposite the runners so they are 1 meter away. They take 11, 10, 7, 6, 3,2 damage from wave nearest them, then 10, 9, 6, 5, 2, 1 from the opposite blast wave for a total of 72 damage. Texmex party!

With the above change, they would instead take base (DV -1/m) + 2x where x = number of meaninful barriers within range. So in the above example with changes to base grenades, the frag grenade would deal (14 -1) +2*2 = 13 + 4 = 17 damage. Now thats a respectable amount of damage and will still hurt the group a great deal, but with some lucky dice and good armor they may come out alive.

quickedit: spelling and awful grammar

[Umidori]

I very much like that, ZeroPoint.

It doesn't pass the mythical "Kill Average Joe at point blank" test, but... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umi