Ship Design with Rigger 3, & Naval Combat in the 2060s Options

[Austere Emancipa...]

I used B^2 + 4 throughout the design progress, but now for a new question: Is there a table somewhere that lists what Signature modifications affect a watercrafts Sonar Signature?

Obviously Thermal Baffles or RAMs shouldn't help, but I figured the Signature Improvement probably should.

Anyway, here she is:

SKS Habicht-Class Missile Boat

Hull: 2
Bulwark: 4
Cargo: 63 + 2,316 PS
Handling: 2
AutoNav: 4
Sensor/Sonar: 10/4
Seating: -
Entry: 4d
Load: 1,363 + 27,900 PS
Speed: 100 (35)
Accel.: 13
Sig.: 8/4 (8/5?)
Fuel: 6,000l Diesel
Econ.: 1km/l
Chassis: Patrol Craft

SI: -

Avail.: -

Cost: 12,088,050 :nuyen:

Other features: Amenities (30 Basic, 4 Improved), BattleTac FDDM & IVIS Receivers, CMC-3, ECM-6, ECCM-6, ED-3, Electronics Ports (Small Satellite Dish, Transceiver-10 + Signal Amplifier-10), Enviroseal (Gas and Water), External Reinforced Missile Mounts (3, 2 Siroccos in 2, 2 MADCAPs in 1), Fixed Internal Hardpoints (2, Vogeljägers in each with Str 6 Mechanical Arms for reloading), Life Support (340 man-hrs), Naval Weapon Control Network-2, Noisemaker Dispenser (4 Noisemakers), Power Amplifiers-10, Remote-Control Encryption Module-5, Remote-Control Interface, Retransmission Unit, Rigger Adaptation, Smart Materials (Factored In), Special Storage Area (30 Vogeljäger Missiles), Spotlights (5)

This is 1/5th the price of a Stuart-class corvette, and I'm pretty sure it could sink one easily.

[Fahr]

I think that while the focus on surface ships is admirable, I think subs are going to play a big part in any future navy, as they have advantages vs. those big carriers that the surface ships do not.

I have a sub design around somewhere as a coastal defensive patrol type... let me find it and I'll post it here...

-Mike R.

[Kagetenshi]

The whole no-cover-on-the-open-seas thing, combined with surveillance satellites, means that yes, subs do have massive advantages over surface ships. Namely, that the enemy doesn't always know exactly where they are and what they're doing.

Force 40 Vehicle Mask anyone?

~J

[Fahr]

how about group ritual vehicle mask, or blood magic vehicle mask !!!

-Mike R.

[Moonstone Spider]

Hmm, here's an odd question.

If ship combat in 206x is all about the missiles, what're ships doing with the ANDREWS system? An LOS-only particle beam is useless, you ship will be hammered into scrap before you ever get in range. Offering this to the military would be like offering the US Marines of today a Lightsaber, sure it's better than any other commando knife (Well sort of for certain things) but that means drek when most combat involves guns at dozens to hundreds of meters?

[Kagetenshi]

ANDREWs systems are intended to attack incoming missiles :)

~J

Edit: reading your post again, your analogy was perfect. In Star Wars, lightsabers would be useless if it weren't for the ability to block blaster bolts.

[Nikoli]

As for on station length, the navies of SR have a huge benefit over real navies. Galley mage, force 6 Create food force 6 create water. have like 10 of these guys and you feed a crew with no supplies required.
Ships mage/doctor, heal and treat being the order of teh day, then basic recovery beds for remaining wounds.
the Fix spell, this is a huge advantage for the smaller, more oft to break components on board.
you could have a group of 10 mages all in their own initiate group with high magic ratings taking multiple spell useage rolls to reduce storage needs and overhead. That and add a few force 6 water elementals or spirits doing sub-hunts to augment the drones. Or astral perception watching the biomass of plankton part for submarines or torpedoes etc.

[Backgammon]

I think it would be very unlikely to tie up 10 mages to supporting roles such as chef.. and healing mages need to be trained as medics and surgeons as well. Sure, with magic anything is possible. But magic is very rare, so you can't mount your strategy based on magical support (excluding dragon or elven armies)

[John Campbell]

Bah. Keebler propaganda. They're no more magical than anyone else.

[Kagetenshi]

Keebleros, destroyer of worlds, will make you pay for that.

~J

[Austere Emancipa...]

Sub vs Surface Ship: As far as SR is concerned, the main advantage of subs over surface ships is exactly what Kagetenshi said: Cannot be tracked by satellites.

Otherwise, they aren't that great. They are more difficult to spot by sonar than surface ships are, but I have a feeling that surface ships easily having a whole lot of Sonars and some MADs balances it out. I'll have to run the figures for how the prices of subs and surface ships compare based on R3, and then maybe a few scenarios for how the spotting goes.

For the time being, I'd assume that SR submarines' lack of versatility and higher cost would limit the amount in use by all but the largest Navies. Even with those large Navies, subs wouldn't be the most common ship type simply because quick land strikes and search-and-destroy missions against enemy surface ships aren't a Navy's only priority.

Regardless, I will be designing a few subs of my own and comparing them to surface ships in most areas.

[Austere Emancipa...]

A long long time ago in a galaxy far far away...

A S-K owned cargo liner is carrying trendy sports shoes from factories in Liberia to Germany, to be sold in Europe. It is escorted by a single Habicht-class craft because of warnings of pirate activity in the region. Sure enough, it runs into trouble near the Canary Isles.

The Habicht is "running silent", using its Sonar in passive mode, radio on Flux 3 to communicate with the liner, and Sensors with Flux 13 -- just enough to reach the horizon with its ECCM on. It is also running its ED-3 system at Flux 11, the highest it can: 3 (Rating) x 3 (Hull + 1) + 2 (Hull), which means that its ED reaches only to 32km, almost to the horizon. The total Flux is 27, but the crew has managed to lower that to 23 for a Footprint of 2, and thus a Signature of 6/4.

The liner, a Jorgensen, is running everything at full Flux, so its Signature is well below 2 for all purposes. The SK ships are moving 25 meters per CT, so the Jorgensen is cavitating (insignificant). The Habicht is 500 meters ahead of the Jorgensen.

8km straight ahead of the Habicht, a pirate-owned Stuart-class corvette loaded with Block II Outlaws comes up from behind an island (a dead zone). The pirates also turn on their Sensors to full Flux and fire up their active Sonar with Tactical Pinging. Their Signature is thus 2/2. A pirate cargo ship is still lying in wait behind the island.

The pirates roll 4 dice with their Sonar against 2 for both the Habicht (Sonar Sig 4, -2 from Tactical Pinging) and the Jorgensen: 10, 10, 5, 2. The pirates identify the Jorgensen as such, and they (unknowingly) beat the Habicht's ED, so they only see an unknown object 500 meters ahead of the Jorgensen. With their Sensors they are rolling 4 dice against 6 for the Habicht and 2 for the Jorgensen: 5, 3, 2, 2. The pirates get a clear reading of the Jorgensen on their radar as well, but they are fooled by the Habicht -- they think it's another Jorgensen. They immediately lock on to the "Jorgensen" in front with another Sensor Test with 1 success (doesn't beat the ED), and arm their Outlaws. (I'll forego Passive Sonar).

The Habicht rolls 4 dice with its Passive Sonar against 2: 4, 4, 3, 3. The Habicht's Sonars locate the Stuart and identify as such. With Sensors they roll 10 dice against 2: 11, 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 2. They can tell the Stuart hasn't had a paint-job in a long while, has been modified, and doesn't belong to any Navy, although it has probably once been owned by a SE Asian Navy. The Habicht locks on. (Never mind the Jorgensen.)

On a common channel, the pirate Stuart transmits to what they believe to be 2 Jorgensens that there are missiles trained on them and they will be attacked unless they co-operate -- stop and wait to be boarded. The crew of the Habicht has other ideas. The pirate ship is now far enough away from the island not to make it behind it again in time. The Habicht arms its Siroccos and gets ready to fire them in Continuous Lock Mode.

Combat Turn sequence begins. The Stuart is moving at 20m/CT at 90 degrees to the SK ships. The Habicht and the Jorgensen are still moving at 25m/CT, 500 meters from each other, with the Stuart 7750 meters off the bow of the Habicht. The Stuart is in Normal Terrain (-2 Points) because of the island nearby. The SK ships are in Open (0 Points). The Stuart has -15 Vehicle Points (Hull 3), the Habicht -10, the Jorgensen -25. All ships have 2 Speed Points.
Stuart: -15, Habicht: -8, Jorgensen: -23

The Stuart already thinks it's in control of the situation and doesn't use any CP for the Maneuver Test. With 7 skill dice, the pirate rigger rolls 5 as his highest, for -10 Maneuver Score. The Habicht wants to take control, so its rigger uses 5 CP dice out of 11 and his skill of 8 and rolls 11 as highest, +3 total MS. The Jorgensen's captain rolls 7 skill dice for 5, -18 total MS.
S: -10, H: +3, J: -18

For initiative, the rigger of the Stuart rolls 9+3d6 for 22, the Habicht rolls 12+4d6 for 27, the Jorgensen rolls 5+1d6 for 8.
27 - Habicht
22 - Stuart
8 - Jorgensen
(I'll assume all riggers and crewmen in a ship move at the same time as the piloting rigger -- not accurate, but ~30 less dice rolls.)

The Habicht already has a lock-on, and is ready to fire. 2 Siroccos will be fired in Continuous Lock Mode. The responsible gunnery crewmen have Gunnery/Sirocco of 4/6, and they also get to roll 3 dice for the Intelligence of the missile and 5 from the Sensors of the Habicht. With 14 dice, they roll against the Signature of the Stuart, which is 2, modified only by -3 by Direct LOS: 11 and 13 successes. *BOOM Whoosh* *BOOM Whoosh* 2 Siroccos leave the Habicht and start moving towards the Stuart at 800m/CT.

Meanwhile the Habicht's piloting rigger tries to position his ship better for the ensuing combat. He rolls his 8 skill dice against 2: 8 successes, which will increase the Habicht's Maneuver Score by 8 in the next CT. The Habicht breaks off the formation and starts steering to protect the Jorgensen. Over to the Stuart.

The Stuart gets an Active Sensor Test to spot the missile launch. Rolling 4 dice against the Signatures of 5: 11, 11, 10, 2. They realize the so-called Jorgensen just fired 2 Siroccos at them. On their screens the offending ship is still moving on its original path, though. The missiles won't hit until at least 9 CTs have passed, so they first try to positively identify the weird ship. They try to lock on, again rolling 4 dice against the modified Sig of 6 of the Habicht: 5, 4, 4, 3. It's still showing as a Jorgensen, and it's still doing nothing on their radar screen. They are starting to panic.

Since the lock-on they have is obviously worthless, the gunnery crew cannot do anything. The piloting rigger wets his pants and starts moving the ship around to get back behind the island, now 400 meters behind it, 500 meters towards the SK ships. Positioning test with 7 skill and 7 CP, TN 2: 13 successes. The Stuart will have a MS of 3 next CT.

The Jorgensen also tries to get to a better position in case of incoming fire. With 7 skill dice against a TN of 4 (Hand 5, Open): 5 successes. The Jorgensen will have a MS of -13 next CT. They turn off all their communications gear, Sensors etc, except for the radio at Flux 4, communicating with the Habicht. Their Sig is now 1/2.

Back to the Habicht. The gunnery crews, knowing full well that the Stuart can probably swat 2 missiles from the sky, fire their other 2 Siroccos, this time in rigger-controlled mode. *BOOM Whoosh* *BOOM Whoosh* 2 riggers start riding their missiles, 270 meters behind the first two. The piloting rigger starts to accelerate the Habicht to full speed, with 8 dice against TN of 2: 7 successes, and the Habicht is moving in the same direction as the Stuart at 116m/CT.

In the Stuart, the pirates make a final attempt to lock onto the weird ship, 4 dice against 6: 17, 11, 5, 2. It's still a Jorgensen, and it's still inexplicably 500 meters ahead of the other Jorgensen, now moving away from the Stuart at 25m/CT. The Sonar shows it in a whole another direction, apparently cavitating, but they cannot get enough successes to know more. The gunnery crew is still crippled. The piloting rigger starts to accelerate towards the island with 2 CP and 7 skill dice against 3: 5 successes, and the Stuart is moving at 65m/CT towards the island.

The Habicht keeps accelerating towards the Stuart, with 8 dice TN 2: 7 successes, the Habicht is moving at its top speed of 150m/CT towards the Stuart. The riggers in the Siroccos admire the view.

The Stuart accelerates more, this time against 4 with 7 dice: 3 successes, and the Stuart is moving at 80m/CT towards the island. The Sensor crew give up on the mystery ship and attempt to lock on to the other ship instead, in case firing at it would allow them to shake off the other. 4 dice against 2: 10, 4, 4, 3. They have a lock on the Jorgensen.

End of CT 1, and time for the GM to eat. God damn this stuff is complex. And soon we'll be having a lot more missiles in the air, and then even more as people start shooting the first missiles down. Had I given the pirate ship some ECM (very reasonable), it would have caused a few more rolls and might even have jumped the Sig of the Stuart by one or two because it has an advantage in Flux (larger Hull and it's using all of it), but with the already sub-zero Sig it wouldn't've mattered a damn.

Lessons learned thus far: Always get max rating Sensors on all ships. Some ECD doesn't hurt. On any larger ship, get at least 5-6 rating Sonar as well. Don't fuck with a Habicht. :silly:

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Apr 17 2004, 08:29 PM

[Austere Emancipa...]

I think I could probably have rolled additional Combat Pool dice on the attack test with the Siroccos. This make have added 4-6 successes on both of the first shots, which really wouldn't make much of a difference. The Stuart should have rolled against 3 to spot the Siroccos, -2 TN for Direct LOS, but the missiles were spotted anyway.

I will count all movement between CTs. I don't know what the canon way of doing this is, but counting it in increments of 3 seconds is by far the easiest, if rather inaccurate. Got to love ships that can accelerate at 1.4Gs.

At the start of CT 2 the situation is this: The Stuart moved 80 meters towards the island and away from the original position of the S-K ships. The Habicht came right behind it, closing 70 meters to 7680 meters. The Jorgensen moved 25 meters away from both, and is now 675 meters from the Habicht, 8355 meters from the Stuart.

Getting behind the island won't matter, because the Habicht is coming straight after the Stuart, and the missiles can swerve slightly to avoid hitting it. The missiles closed 720 meters to the Stuart, and are now at 7030 meters. The Maneuver Scores are:
S: 9, H: 24, J: -13

The Habicht swerves slightly to maintain a slight outside angle at the Stuart. The piloting rigger rolls 8 skill, TN 2: 6 successes, +6 MS next round. The crew arm the MADCAP mount, just in case.

The Stuart accelerates again, TN 4 with 7 dice: 3 successes. The Stuart is moving at 95m/CT. The comm crew maintain the lock on the real Jorgensen. The gunnery crew launch 2 Outlaws at the Jorgensen in Fire-and-Forget mode. The TN is 2 and they roll 17 dice, 6 from skill, 6 from CP and Int of 5: 13 and 15 successes. *Woosh* *Woosh* 2 Outlaws speed towards the Jorgensen at 1000m/CT.

The Jorgensen accelerates, with 7 dice TN 8 (5 Hand, -1 Open, +4 from Maneuver Scores): 0 successes. The Stuart has maneuvered so that the Jorgensen cannot increase its relative speed.

The Habicht rolls an Active Sensor Test to spot the Outlaws. (R3 does not give a Sig to anything but anti-ship munitions, so I'll go with 5.) 10 dice against TN 3: 8 successes. The Habicht can see two Outlaw Block IIs launched from the Stuart. The comm crew locks on to one missile (7 successes) while the gunnery crew pops open the Vogeljäger mounts, lowering the ship's Signature to 6. The Vogeljägers are armed.

The Stuart keeps accelerating. TN is still 4, 7 dice: 3 successes. The Stuart is finally at its top speed of 105m/CT. The pirate comm crew now goes back to trying to lock on to the mystery ship. The TN is 4 this time, with 4 dice: 1 success. The darn ship still isn't where it's supposed to, and it's still a Jorgensen. The gunnery crews are ready to shoot whenever there's a lock on, either on the mystery ship or the incoming missiles.

The Habicht swerves again to gain a good tactical position. 8 skill dice + 8 CP, TN 2: 13 successes, 7 better than last time. +13 instead of +6 to MS next CT. The comm crew Delay their action until the first Vogeljäger is fired.

The gunnery crew, knowing that Stuart doesn't have a NWCN, fires one Vogeljäger at the locked on Outlaw in Fire-and-Forget mode. Sig 5 with Direct LOS, the TN is 2, and the firing rigger rolls 17 dice, 6 skill dice + 6 Combat Pool + 5 Intelligence: 12 successes. The scatter (2d6) is reduced by 15 and the Outlaw cannot dodge, so the missile will hit. The missiles will close in at 2000m/CT, so the hit will occur in 4 CTs, very last in CT 6. The Outlaw would have to roll 14 successes on its Damage Resistance Test not to be destroyed and it doesn't have enough Body. It is doomed. The other Vogeljäger gunner delays until the comm crew has acted.

The comm crew uses their delayed action, locking on to the second Outlaw, 10 dice against 3: 7 successes. The Habicht now has a lock on the second Outlaw. The other Vogeljäger gunner immediately fires Fire-and-Forget, again rolling 17 dice against TN 2: 16 successes. The second Outlaw is in for the same fate as the first.

Active Sensor Test for the Stuart to spot the new missiles, 4 vs 3: 3 successes. They notice the 2 Vogeljägers. The Stuart tries to position itself better, 7 skill dice and 7 CP vs TN 2: 13 successes, +13 MS next CT. The comm crew again try to lock on the mystery ship, 4 vs 4: 2 successes, still no luck.

CT 3:
The Stuart kept almost the same course, traveling 105 meters. The Habicht came behind, catching up 45 meters, now at 7635 meters. The Jorgensen kept going away from both and is 850 meters from the Habicht, 8485 meters from the Stuart. The Siroccos are 6335 meters from the Stuart, the Outlaws and Vogeljägers are 5680 meters from each other. The MScores are:
S: 6, H: 18, J: -23

And on that cue, the GM is up for maintenance again.

Random Issues: Vehicle-size missiles should probably be allowed to Dodge with the Intelligence when not directly rigged, whether under NWCN or not. As it is, any ship is almost guaranteed to hit any non-rigged missile, limited only by how often the ship can lock on to new missiles and fire at them. If the lock-on rules made any sense (ie it wouldn't be a Complex Action to lock on, and vehicles could lock on to a large number of targets, as I mentioned in the The Idiot's Guide To Rigging Thread), this would be even worse.

How many Vehicle Points do anti-ship missiles get? This is required to roll the Ramming Tests when rigging them with a NWCN.

[Kanada Ten]

Why is the Habicht casing the Stuart? Seems like they could be chasing a decoy, but not know it. Sure they think they have it under control, but sticking with the Jorgensen and launching a drone seems safer. But I know nothing about military tactics.

[Austere Emancipa...]

The main reason is that I don't know anything about military tactics either, and I don't really concentrate on that side of things in the posts -- simply understanding the billions of rules involved is taking most of my brain power.

Personally, I used these excuses: 1) The Stuart would indeed get behind the island causing the first 2 Siroccos to hit it unless the Habicht itself keeps the Stuart in its Sensors. 2) The Habicht knows that Stuarts have pathetic EW capabilities. 3) The Habicht doesn't want the pirates to get away. 4) The Habicht thinks the pirates wouldn't use a 60 million nuyen ship as a decoy when trying to steal a bunch of shoes from 2 merchant ships without support. 5) I'm metagaming with the Habicht.

That said, the Habicht will not go far, since its main purpose is simply to keep a straight LOS at the Stuart. It will soon start to move at an angle at the Stuart so as to keep distance from the Jorgensen static and still keep the Stuart in sight long enough for the Siroccos to hit -- something like 24 seconds now. After that, it's only 6-9 seconds to be back in close formation with the Jorgensen. The Habicht is also likely to go for full Flux Sensor and Sonar scanning really soon.

Just firing 2 rigger-guided Siroccos would have evaded the island-problem, but it would also have meant that the Habicht would have been unable of firing any more Siroccos for a long time, unless the riggers would have jumped out of the missiles and let them at the mercy of the Stuarts missile defenses again. The Habicht does not have any drone-capabilities because of space issues, and whenever there is a more significant threat it should be escorted by larger ships that can and do launch drones and manned aircraft.

And once I'd made the decision to chase it and had done an Init Pass based on that decision, going back to change it would already have been almost impossible. I really don't want to do that math again. :(

All I'm hoping for is that I'm helping someone else understand the naval combat rules. Even if that simply scares everybody into not using them that's fine, at least I've made a difference. :)

[hobgoblin]

or infact "scare" someone into useing them :)

[Shockwave_IIc]

I'm gonna say WOW!! for two reasons, one it's a good read and it looks like your doing a good job there Austere Emancipator, the second is cause how much effort!! Simple and Abstract are gonna be my key words in relation to Naval the rules.

Kinda reminds me of something from Elizabeth Moon's Serrano Legacy...

[Crusher Bob]

For a pretty good (and fun) intro to modern naval warfare, you can try the harppon series of computer games. They also include a naval encyclopedia to explain what most of this stuff is.

MAD detectors aren't that usefull since they are so short ranged. For a sub, you are looking at CZ detection of surface contacts in the 30 mile range, then picking them back up in the 4 to 10 mile range. MAD is really only good for ASW helicopters who are looking in almost the right place to begin wtih, and does not detect subs that are down deep very well anyway. Of couse... the sub need to be above the thermocline layer (~150 ft) to hear surface ships, so this usually isn't a problem.

[Austere Emancipa...]

I cannot post anything longer than ~500 letters. I haven't got a clue why. I will have to continue this thread when (if) the problem ever goes away. I don't want to post a dozen messages just to do one CT.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Crusher Bob]

In general the layer will be in the 150-400 feet (50-130) meters depending on the season and the ocean you are in. The Med and other closed (Persian gulf, black sea, etc) areas operate by different rules though.

You should be able to reduce your dectibaility by active sonar by covering your submarine in 'rubber' tiles to absorb and distort the sonar pings.

With a ridiculous amount of processing power, you should be able to black noise the sonar pings as well.

[Austere Emancipa...]