I could only find this, where the problems of creating a tanker ship is discussed. Has anyone designed military ships? Ships useful for pirates or shadowrunners with maritime interests?
I'm only now reading through the ship-specific rules in Rigger 3, but I've already run into several silly issues there-in. For example, all SR ships need an Engineering Crew of (Hull + 1)^2 men. The Sea Shadow is ancient (80 years old in SR times) and displaces 560 tons (and is thus Hull 3), so it should need an Engineering Crew of well over the minimum of 16, because clearly the automation in the 2060s is at a far more advanced level than it is now, or was 20 years ago.
The Sea Shadow has a total crew of 10. Thus I will probably take several liberties when deciding on crew sizes for ships I design.
That said, are there significant issues with designing ship communication and control networks, weapons networks and rigger circuits? Yes, I'll read through those sections myself, preferably several times with thought, but it would be hear about possible problem areas.
I'll try to use the canon ships described in R3 when determining several things about my designs -- are there any problems with the canon ships that I might not easily spot? Glancing at them, they seem really light on C&C gear, Remote Control Networks etc. that I would think are extremely important aspects of naval combat in the 2060s.
Finally, how do you personally view naval combat in Shadowrun? I'm certainly no expert in that area, but it seems that the current trend is towards smaller, faster, more stealthy and cheaper ships, with a few large carrier fleets doing backup. Maybe the largest ships in most fleets would be about the size of small destroyers today, with full displacements well under 10,000 tons (about the size of an Arleigh-Burke)?
Would fast & stealthy missile frigates serve as the backbones of navies in the 2060s? Or would the advances in technology make even smaller ships prevalent, leading to navies arming themselves mostly with ships like the Streetfighter Littoral Combat Ship? Do you think carrier groups would still depend on supercarriers, or would the majority of carriers be smaller and carry mostly VSTOL aircraft?
Looking at the US Navy's plans for the CVN-21, it seems supercarriers will be around for at least the next 50-60 years. Large navies, such as the Japanese Imperial, Aztlan and perhaps some Norther American ones, would probably still have these in SR times. Most of the navies of current world powers might make do with smaller carriers, perhaps reminicent of the Corsair. Somehow I'd like to think Destroyer-sized ships would still be around in plenty, but maybe that's just wishful thinking -- I have no idea how naval combat in 2060s would actually work.
How dependent on air power would navy fleets be? Would all ships of necessary size utilize a large number of strike VSTOLs and UAV scouts, or would strike aircraft be kept out of the airspace because of advances in sensor and missile technology? Large ship groups, carrier groups mostly, would probably make use of extensive command networks, but perhaps smaller units (most groups with most ships under 1,000 tons) would keep networking to a minimum for fears of enemy Electronic Warfare?
Full Version: Ship Design with Rigger 3
Well you could count each Autopilot system as a crew member. So it costs you cash up front, but then you don't need all that passe meat-help cluttering up your deck.
You mean the AutoNav system, with 1 rating = 1 crew member? Or do you mean buying extra Robotic Pilots to act as crewmen? The latter actually sounds quite reasonable, especially if the whole ship works in a closed-circuit rigger system.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| I'm only now reading through the ship-specific rules in Rigger 3, but I've already run into several silly issues there-in. For example, all SR ships need an Engineering Crew of (Hull + 1)^2 men. The Sea Shadow is ancient (80 years old in SR times) and displaces 560 tons (and is thus Hull 3), so it should need an Engineering Crew of well over the minimum of 16, because clearly the automation in the 2060s is at a far more advanced level than it is now, or was 20 years ago. |
The Sea Shadow is a short-haul proof-of-concept vehicle, not a functional warship. It is really a singular vessel that is, IMO, a poor start to compare to other vessels. Try several frigates from various nations, and look at tonnage and crewing. Andrew Toppan's Navies of the World is a good place to start.
| QUOTE |
| Glancing at them, they seem really light on C&C gear, Remote Control Networks etc. that I would think are extremely important aspects of naval combat in the 2060s. |
How many "front line" or "first rate Navy" ships are in R3? IIRC, they're all pretty much corporate gun boats and things runners might run into, not something the UCAS or IJN would use to smack down another nation.
Megacorps in SR do not buy front-line military equipment. They buy second-hand fighters like the decades-old EFA variants, old tanks that are lightly armored by the standards of the day, and are more concerned with suppression of "assymmetric forces" (locals with assault rifles), not cutting edge hypersonic fighters and TBirds. It follows that their ships will be pop-gun boats that would be beaten like a kettle drum in combat by real warships.
| QUOTE |
| Finally, how do you personally view naval combat in Shadowrun? I'm certainly no expert in that area, but it seems that the current trend is towards smaller, faster, more stealthy and cheaper ships, with a few large carrier fleets doing backup. |
That was not the trend exemplified by the USN through the Cold War. Bigger, badder, meaner was the trend. Today's frigates and destroyers can be literally eight times the size of their pre-WWI counterparts.
Yes, battleships have gone away. But the little ships - frigates and destroyers - kept inflating from WWI to the present day, even though they aren't packing on much extra armor or bigger cannons. Further, the carriers are bigger than ever, and they do not do backup. They are the primary striking arm of a fleet. Destroyers, frigates, and cruisers provide point defense around a carrier, with weapons only reaching out (against other warships) about 100 miles, while a carrier denies a 1000-mile radius to enemy navies.
Shadowrun's navies show a period of contraction, economic collapse, and reduction in funds that goes with the balkanization of the big nations. Interests and worries are not titanic battles between super power navies, but rather pirates raiding corporate ships and shadowrunners. What you need to deal with that is, yes, numerous, light, small ships.
| QUOTE |
| Would fast & stealthy missile frigates serve as the backbones of navies in the 2060s? |
Fast and stealthy missile frigates would be leetle beetches for a fast and stealthy carrier's drones and fighters. Frigates would do better as guardians for carriers.
The backbone of the Navy would depend on the Navy in question. A megacorp would have large (~300-ton) gunboats looking to put the skeer into pirates, to protect its tankers and freighters. The UCAS would still have US-holdover delusions of grandeur and field carriers able to lay the smack down on other navies, not just assymmetric pirate threats.
The fleets that field such supercarriers are mentioned in R3, IIRC. The UCAS has them, the IJN has fewer, and...I believe the Confederates passed on their chance to field big boats like super carriers.
Imagine 70 years of post-Cold War military contraction, the sort that has contracted and shrunk the US military. Then dice up the US into smaller chunks. There won't be a lot of big boats around. But they will be around, because there hasn't been the big, advanced 2060's-era Super Power kind of threat to make them go away. What's the saying? "Generals always plan for the last war"? Well, there hasn't been any big war in the SR world since...1991? 1945?
Imagine the carrier that relies on uav attack craft. some of the combat fliers are pretty nasty when compared to the combat helos and the LAV's.
Or, send a single rigger up in a fast fixed wing, with his own squadron of UAV's flying wing for him. perfect unison formations, and the planes always cover each other, much less human error in telling where your compadre is. now imagine 20 of these riggers going up, each in command of 9 other smaller UAVs, now you have 10 pilots, 100 fighting aircraft, or 90 fighters, 10 utility bombers, the force multiplication is insane. that and you can store probably 20 or more UAV's per manned craft, so there would be less cycle time between missions as damaged or lost drones are immediately added to the subscriber list or simply set into the active list, and the repair crews work on the ones left behind
Or, send a single rigger up in a fast fixed wing, with his own squadron of UAV's flying wing for him. perfect unison formations, and the planes always cover each other, much less human error in telling where your compadre is. now imagine 20 of these riggers going up, each in command of 9 other smaller UAVs, now you have 10 pilots, 100 fighting aircraft, or 90 fighters, 10 utility bombers, the force multiplication is insane. that and you can store probably 20 or more UAV's per manned craft, so there would be less cycle time between missions as damaged or lost drones are immediately added to the subscriber list or simply set into the active list, and the repair crews work on the ones left behind
Corps use military assets to perform quick strikes. The order of they day is sending in a Spec Ops team or sending in a squadron of fighter-bombers to take out a facility or something. Holding objectives, in the sense of kicking the enemy out and keeping what used to be his terrain, doesn't happen much with corp forces. They hold their own assets with sec forces, and go out and hurt the other guy with with precision strikes.
Now, that being said, the role of Navies would be either A) a base of operation for quick strikes, B) a quick strike in itself or C) Defending one of the corps own assets.
Furthermore, Naval warfare, as detailed in R3, consists of shooting missles at ungodly far-away enemies.
So I see carriers as being pretty usefull to corps. But they are very, very expensive, so unfortunatly probably not cost-effective. I figure the most military minded corps have at most 1-2 small ones and maybe 1 medium one, while the less military minded probably make due without one.
Alos, the size of a boat can only do so much against the extremely effective anti-naval missles used, so making Big Ships isn't really gonna help you. Having Lots of Little Ships armed with missles seems like the best strategy. You have the same base firepower (a missle is a missle, right) with multiple platforms.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents, although keep in mind I have no special knowledge whatsoever and am pretty much making this up as I go along.
Now, that being said, the role of Navies would be either A) a base of operation for quick strikes, B) a quick strike in itself or C) Defending one of the corps own assets.
Furthermore, Naval warfare, as detailed in R3, consists of shooting missles at ungodly far-away enemies.
So I see carriers as being pretty usefull to corps. But they are very, very expensive, so unfortunatly probably not cost-effective. I figure the most military minded corps have at most 1-2 small ones and maybe 1 medium one, while the less military minded probably make due without one.
Alos, the size of a boat can only do so much against the extremely effective anti-naval missles used, so making Big Ships isn't really gonna help you. Having Lots of Little Ships armed with missles seems like the best strategy. You have the same base firepower (a missle is a missle, right) with multiple platforms.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents, although keep in mind I have no special knowledge whatsoever and am pretty much making this up as I go along.
| QUOTE (Cray74) |
| The Sea Shadow is a short-haul proof-of-concept vehicle, not a functional warship. |
The particular rule regarding Engineering Crew size is not specific to warships. Brief Googling suggests that requiring 30,000-40,000 ton oil tankers to have a 64-man crew dedicated to engineering alone is far too much. However, using a RC Network with Drone engineers seems like a sufficiently canon-ish way of dealing with the problem.
| QUOTE |
| How many "front line" or "first rate Navy" ships are in R3? |
The only aircraft mentioned is currently the flagship of the Japanese Imperial Navy, and "similar" designs are reported to be the USS Powell-class supercarrier (mainstay of the UCAS fleet?) and SKS Seemacht-class Supercarrier. The latter might be a "corporate gunboat", but both the Akihito and the Powell sound like front line carriers, and the Japanese Imperial Navy is pretty much the only first rate Navy in the SR world -- I dunno what state the Aztlan Navy is in.
The Aohana-class frigate seems to be a cheap escort-ship and is well described as "corporate gunboat". The last warship in R3, the Stuart-class corvette, appears not to be a front line ship, but it does appear in support fire and anti-sub roles for several serious Navies -- CAS, UCAS at the least.
For the Aohana, then, it's understandable that it lacks most expensive electronic gear. But for the Akihito it's pretty silly, and the only excuse is probably that the designers were lazy and didn't want to dwell into all the stuff that a supercarrier might really have in the 2060s.
| QUOTE |
| That was not the trend exemplified by the USN through the Cold War. Bigger, badder, meaner was the trend. |
Like I said, I'm no expert.
You could even say that I know absolutely nothing about naval warfare, past or present. I do in fact say that. But several Cold War trends in weapon research have since stopped and turned backwards -- consider M60A3 - M1A2 - the current push for a light wheeled or tracked "Mobile Gun System" that could be parachuted or at least deployed rapidly with airborne troops. It did not seem like much of a stretch to consider a similar trend in naval warfare, especially since most of the new technology being developed seems to be related to making smaller, faster and more stealthy ships. There are a few larger ships developed by/for the USN, such as the CVN-21, and even the DD(X) project aims at a ship with a full displacement of 12,000 tons. So for all I know, ship sizes could stay exactly the same for the next 60 years. It was just an uneducated guess.
| QUOTE |
| Shadowrun's navies show a period of contraction, economic collapse, and reduction in funds that goes with the balkanization of the big nations. |
This was part of the reason for my earlier assessment, I just couldn't and didn't put it into words. So the "superpowers" (mainly Japan and Aztlan, and UCAS) have the carriers, but the rest simply have no need or resources for ships that big? And so go for ships closer to the Littoral Combat Ships or similar low-tech vessels. (And then you pretty much answer this later on. Uhh, I need to go to sleep some time.)
Navies with large carriers: There is the SKS Seemacht-class supercarrier mentioned as similar to Akihito. Who would you wager has that/those? It seems extremely unlikely that any German state or Saeder-Krupp would have it, unless Lofwyr is having a really bad middle-age crisis.
I gather from your comment on the carriers that you would expect the important battles to be fought within massive C&C networks? And if carriers are still by far the most important ship in a large navy interested in conventional warfare, I also assume that you think airpower is just as if not more important in naval warfare in the 2060s as it is now?
And since I really don't know crap about the issue: How important is that, exactly? Does a larger, more advanced fleet of smaller ships without significant air support stand any chance of destroying a carrier group, now or in the foreseeable future?
BTW, even the Stuart-class corvette in R3 is listed as Hull 3, or 501-1,000 tons. Maybe, then, I should first concentrate my efforts on designing a few patrol boats in the 200-500 ton range.
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| you can store probably 20 or more UAV's per manned craft |
The kind of UAVs there are in R3, you certainly can. But those are really small as aircraft go, and probably won't be of much use for applications other than "scouting" and defense against enemy aircraft -- or even enemy air-defense missiles. Striking against ships will require significantly larger aircraft, and I don't think it matters much, size-wise, whether a such an aircraft is manned or unmanned.
The aircraft might never go so close to enemy ships that Electronic Warfare would be a major problem, so it could indeed be worthwhile to use significant RC Networks in air operations from carriers. Destroyers and carriers would probably carry a large number of smaller scout and air defense drones that would do many of the jobs now given to helos carried by such ships. Utility helicopters or tilt-wing designs would still be necessary in some cases, but most of the subhunting and radar-extension operations would be done with the drones.
Backgammon:
That is largely what I was thinking. I hadn't thought much about the roles of ships, especially for corp Navies, and those seem about right.
Excluding carriers, are there inherent advantages in having a few, larger warships over having large numbers of small ones? Looking at the costs of a Streetfighter and an Arleigh Burke, you could get maybe 9 Streetfighters for the price of one AB.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Apr 15 2004, 05:46 AM) |
| Excluding carriers, are there inherent advantages in having a few, larger warships over having large numbers of small ones? Looking at the costs of a Streetfighter and an Arleigh Burke, you could get maybe 9 Streetfighters for the price of one AB. |
Aside from intimidation, prestige, and a platform for heavy guns, no. And since modern (and likely future) naval combat is now missile based, this is why we don't use battleships anymore. They're now basically missile boats hitting hard and hitting fast. They lack the ability to sustain a fight, but with a large infrastructure, those 96 missiles go a long way. Taken 60 years further and the concept is only more effective. Guns aren't even carried for shipboard defense, anymore, not counting the racks of M16s kept for the very unlikely event of personnel combat.
The one advantage of traditional naval combat is that it is much, much cheaper, and with modern computers and ballistics, still very long range and very accurate. It may be an option for specialized roles or poorer navies, but I find the latter much less likely.
There is a sustainability and on station time that you need a certain ship size to do. The 600 ton corvettes can't hang around in the pacific or atlantic for several weeks, they don't carry them food, spare parts, and so on for those kinds of deployments. For a country whose navy is into power projection (rather than local defense), you need ships that can stay on station for a long time.
I would expect the carriers or SR to be in the 40-60,000 ton range and carry 40-60 multirole aircraft. I don't think any of the powers have the funds to maintain several super carriers.
The carriers would likely have an escort group of 6-8 ships along with possibly 2-4 submarines. Shrinking the escort fore much more that that makes it impossible to cover all avenues of apporach around the carrier (mostly from sub threats).
I would expect plenty of attention in design to be made to reducing required personel, increasing station time, and simplyfying maintenance and upgrades.
I would expect the carriers or SR to be in the 40-60,000 ton range and carry 40-60 multirole aircraft. I don't think any of the powers have the funds to maintain several super carriers.
The carriers would likely have an escort group of 6-8 ships along with possibly 2-4 submarines. Shrinking the escort fore much more that that makes it impossible to cover all avenues of apporach around the carrier (mostly from sub threats).
I would expect plenty of attention in design to be made to reducing required personel, increasing station time, and simplyfying maintenance and upgrades.
I thought myself about the scenario of a larger fleet of small surface ships vs a carrier group, and I think I can see how it might be nearly impossible to sink the carrier without extremely heavy losses. I hadn't really thought about the speeds involved: If the carrier can start hitting the approaching ships with aircraft strikes 1,000 miles away, the approaching ships will be under constant fire for at least ~10-15 hours before they get into range, by which time they will be in pretty bad shape. And even before they get to the carrier they'll face the escort group, a serious power in it's own right.
Supposing the balance of power between aircraft and ships remains nearly the same as it is now, I'm starting to really see Cray74's point.
Supposing the balance of power between aircraft and ships remains nearly the same as it is now, I'm starting to really see Cray74's point.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| Guns aren't even carried for shipboard defense, anymore |
The DD-21 and DD(X) projects were at least supposed to be armed with the 155mm Advanced Gun Systems, but those were to "provide high-volume, sustainable fires in support of amphibious operations and the joint land battle". Phalanx-like systems might get replaced by ANDREWS-like and MetalStorm systems. Many of the Littoral Combat Ship models have guns in the 57mm range, some with 30mms, apparently for close-up work against boats and other threats that you don't need missiles against -- a large AC in a remote pop-up turret is the SR equivalent, I suppose.
A large number of ships in development IRL do not have any guns apart from CIWS, that's for sure.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| There is a sustainability and on station time that you need a certain ship size to do. |
I was thinking along these lines, but I wasn't sure. I figure the only Navies which might want to be prepared for force projection are those of Japan and Aztlan, so they might still have a significant number of cruisers and destroyers. When the intensity of conflict is low, or there is no conflict, smaller ships can probably "extend their stay" with the help of support ships, so the corp and small national Navies will not have any real need for large ships.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| I would expect plenty of attention in design to be made to reducing required personel, increasing station time, and simplyfying maintenance and upgrades. |
That seems reasonable, and does seem to be the trend even now. I will try to keep this in mind once I start designing the ships, although it might mostly come up with the fluff.
Phalanxes have already gotten replaced by missiles, by and large, actually. And, while I do see a place for Metal Storm and the like, conventional munitions are really secondary to missile combat. And, as Cray pointed out, missiles are secondary to carriers, which are really what do the dirty work.
As for force projection, you can still support a large carrier group with smaller ships. Not exclusively, of course, but a fleet that is primarily small, fast ships can still hold out for quite a long time, assuming support networks work properly. Crusher does have a very valid point, though; bigger ships do this better. It's just that the need isn't really there.
As for force projection, you can still support a large carrier group with smaller ships. Not exclusively, of course, but a fleet that is primarily small, fast ships can still hold out for quite a long time, assuming support networks work properly. Crusher does have a very valid point, though; bigger ships do this better. It's just that the need isn't really there.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| Phalanxes have already gotten replaced by missiles, by and large, actually. And, while I do see a place for Metal Storm and the like, conventional munitions are really secondary to missile combat. And, as Cray pointed out, missiles are secondary to carriers, which are really what do the dirty work. |
I've always thought that when it comes to close-in defense against enemy ASMs and SSMs, projectile or directed energy weapons are more effective than missiles. That's not really based on much anything apart from a hunch, so I may well be totally wrong.
How do others feel about that issue? Do you think that, 60 years in the future, it will be commonplace to shoot down missiles with missiles of your own? What is the situation now, how reliably can the most advanced missile protection systems IRL shoot down enemy missiles with missiles of their own?
[Edit]Or better yet: Has someone ran naval combat and can thus say whether the rules in R3 allow for reliable defence against missile threats with missiles of your own? If so, how would you say the effectiveness of ANDREWS, projectile weapons and missiles compare against missiles?[/Edit]
This will be the fourth or fifth discussion of this nature that I've been involved in since I joined the boards. To save myself having to go over what's already been said, I've provided some links to the previous thread. It pretty much covers it all, despite the fact that we came to no real conclusion. In the end, the state of SR Naval Forces is based upon how the GM views the world, and its pretty much evenly divided between those of us who think Corporate and National navies are still a threat to be reckoned with, and those who think that the massive collapse in land based national security means virtually no funding is available for naval assets beyond a limited coast guard force. And I don't even want to get into the missile vs. gun, sub vs. ship, battleship vs. carrier argument. We can go around and around on that until the Seventh Age and never see eye to eye.
If, on the other hand, you're interested in just talking tactics and what I think a Corporate or National Navy would look like in SR, then I think I can accommodate you.
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If, on the other hand, you're interested in just talking tactics and what I think a Corporate or National Navy would look like in SR, then I think I can accommodate you.
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Thanks for the links. I tried the Old Forums, but you know the Search function there. The Old Old Forums never even crossed my mind. Reading the thread through now.
| QUOTE (grendel) |
| And I don't even want to get into the missile vs. gun, sub vs. ship, battleship vs. carrier argument. We can go around and around on that until the Seventh Age and never see eye to eye. |
OK. If there is no agreement on the issue, then I'll just go with what is effective by canon and make up stuff for my own game.
I finished reading through most Remote Control and Drone rules, but I've still got a lot of reading to do before I can design my first ships. Once I've done that, I can try and run some example combats. And perhaps then I can seriously start discussing the tactics and the specifics of what the Navies will look like.
I've got several ideas about possible, uhh, I suppose you could them "rule abuses" to make ships more interesting. Drone networks to handle maintenance is one, "sensor arrays" that are basically separate drones built-in to the ship are another. Again, I won't know how they'll work out until I've designed the first ships. [Edit]And it seems this, too, was touched in the thread. Good stuff.[/Edit]
I'm now designing my first ship, the SKS Habicht-class missile boat, ~350 ton mid-level tech patrol craft.
The first significant problem: With vehicle Design Options and Customizations with a nuyen, load or CF cost given as a multiple of Body, what does a ship use? Is the (Body x Body + 4) used for firmpoints valid for all such cases? Until I get a negative answer, I'll use that.
The first significant problem: With vehicle Design Options and Customizations with a nuyen, load or CF cost given as a multiple of Body, what does a ship use? Is the (Body x Body + 4) used for firmpoints valid for all such cases? Until I get a negative answer, I'll use that.
UCAS has Powell-class heavy carriers in the 75-100,000 metric tons range (R3 p.107) including the USS Leonard Koontz replacing the Lincoln in Everett naval station (Seattle Guide) and I guess a USS Powell (Colin ? he as in the Army IIRC...) somewhere. they also have at least one light carrier, the Wolverine, based out of Staten Island (NAGNA).
Japan has 6 Akihitos supercarrier in the 75-100,000 tons commissioned (R3 p.107,187)
Saeder-Krupp has a Seemacht supercarrier class.
In 2054 (NAGNA) CAS had a single heavy battle group organized around the carrier "Atlanta". In 2063 (SoNA) they have two 50,000 tons carriers, in Mobile and Charleston (nothing in Norfolk, which might have become one big demilitarized zone since the secession). They have the "largest submarine fore in the world" and unique new "SSVN", submarine 35,000 tons carrying and alunching as much as 6 airfighters. But the CAS Navy stays mainly a "brown-water navy" facing Aztlan inthe Gulf and using a great number of corvettes of the Stuart-cless (built by Ares).
Aztlan has a "frigate navy" with no carriers, no strategic submarines (but still some nuclear attack submarines like the BAA Zacatecas quoted in the example in R3 p.34) or any large battleships. Aztechnology addition stays in the same category, frigates, corvettes and fast-attack vessels. The analysis in Aztlan SB is that nor Aztlan or Aztechnology really got interested in naval ops. According to Seattle Guide, the most SOTA ship of Aztechnology in 2050 was the Tezcatlipoca.
Great Britain, France, Russia and Canton Federation are among the countries maintaining medium carriers in the 40-50 thousand metric tons range. Canton Federation also commanded six Soohong-class destroyers to Wuxing (R3).
Yamatetsu has a fleet of forty ships patrolling maritime routes (one of the oldest branch of the corporation is shipping co Tsuruga International). After the move to Vladivostok they got transfered to the authority of freshly created Yamatetsu Naval Technologies (Corp DL).
Wuxing also has storng shipping business. It has Zhen Wu-class frigate, and maybe some of its Soohong-class designs destroyers (R3).
Shiawase was one of the first corp to get military vessels after getting extraterritoriality. The Aohana-class frigate s thus a relativvely old design (R3).
Mitsuhama as one ship called the Izanagi (Seattle Guide).
Japan has 6 Akihitos supercarrier in the 75-100,000 tons commissioned (R3 p.107,187)
Saeder-Krupp has a Seemacht supercarrier class.
In 2054 (NAGNA) CAS had a single heavy battle group organized around the carrier "Atlanta". In 2063 (SoNA) they have two 50,000 tons carriers, in Mobile and Charleston (nothing in Norfolk, which might have become one big demilitarized zone since the secession). They have the "largest submarine fore in the world" and unique new "SSVN", submarine 35,000 tons carrying and alunching as much as 6 airfighters. But the CAS Navy stays mainly a "brown-water navy" facing Aztlan inthe Gulf and using a great number of corvettes of the Stuart-cless (built by Ares).
Aztlan has a "frigate navy" with no carriers, no strategic submarines (but still some nuclear attack submarines like the BAA Zacatecas quoted in the example in R3 p.34) or any large battleships. Aztechnology addition stays in the same category, frigates, corvettes and fast-attack vessels. The analysis in Aztlan SB is that nor Aztlan or Aztechnology really got interested in naval ops. According to Seattle Guide, the most SOTA ship of Aztechnology in 2050 was the Tezcatlipoca.
Great Britain, France, Russia and Canton Federation are among the countries maintaining medium carriers in the 40-50 thousand metric tons range. Canton Federation also commanded six Soohong-class destroyers to Wuxing (R3).
Yamatetsu has a fleet of forty ships patrolling maritime routes (one of the oldest branch of the corporation is shipping co Tsuruga International). After the move to Vladivostok they got transfered to the authority of freshly created Yamatetsu Naval Technologies (Corp DL).
Wuxing also has storng shipping business. It has Zhen Wu-class frigate, and maybe some of its Soohong-class designs destroyers (R3).
Shiawase was one of the first corp to get military vessels after getting extraterritoriality. The Aohana-class frigate s thus a relativvely old design (R3).
Mitsuhama as one ship called the Izanagi (Seattle Guide).
I used B^2 + 4 throughout the design progress, but now for a new question: Is there a table somewhere that lists what Signature modifications affect a watercrafts Sonar Signature?
Obviously Thermal Baffles or RAMs shouldn't help, but I figured the Signature Improvement probably should.
Anyway, here she is:
SKS Habicht-Class Missile Boat
Hull: 2
Bulwark: 4
Cargo: 63 + 2,316 PS
Handling: 2
AutoNav: 4
Sensor/Sonar: 10/4
Seating: -
Entry: 4d
Load: 1,363 + 27,900 PS
Speed: 100 (35)
Accel.: 13
Sig.: 8/4 (8/5?)
Fuel: 6,000l Diesel
Econ.: 1km/l
Chassis: Patrol Craft
SI: -
Avail.: -
Cost: 12,088,050
Other features: Amenities (30 Basic, 4 Improved), BattleTac FDDM & IVIS Receivers, CMC-3, ECM-6, ECCM-6, ED-3, Electronics Ports (Small Satellite Dish, Transceiver-10 + Signal Amplifier-10), Enviroseal (Gas and Water), External Reinforced Missile Mounts (3, 2 Siroccos in 2, 2 MADCAPs in 1), Fixed Internal Hardpoints (2, Vogeljägers in each with Str 6 Mechanical Arms for reloading), Life Support (340 man-hrs), Naval Weapon Control Network-2, Noisemaker Dispenser (4 Noisemakers), Power Amplifiers-10, Remote-Control Encryption Module-5, Remote-Control Interface, Retransmission Unit, Rigger Adaptation, Smart Materials (Factored In), Special Storage Area (30 Vogeljäger Missiles), Spotlights (5)
This is 1/5th the price of a Stuart-class corvette, and I'm pretty sure it could sink one easily.
Obviously Thermal Baffles or RAMs shouldn't help, but I figured the Signature Improvement probably should.
Anyway, here she is:
SKS Habicht-Class Missile Boat
Hull: 2
Bulwark: 4
Cargo: 63 + 2,316 PS
Handling: 2
AutoNav: 4
Sensor/Sonar: 10/4
Seating: -
Entry: 4d
Load: 1,363 + 27,900 PS
Speed: 100 (35)
Accel.: 13
Sig.: 8/4 (8/5?)
Fuel: 6,000l Diesel
Econ.: 1km/l
Chassis: Patrol Craft
SI: -
Avail.: -
Cost: 12,088,050
Other features: Amenities (30 Basic, 4 Improved), BattleTac FDDM & IVIS Receivers, CMC-3, ECM-6, ECCM-6, ED-3, Electronics Ports (Small Satellite Dish, Transceiver-10 + Signal Amplifier-10), Enviroseal (Gas and Water), External Reinforced Missile Mounts (3, 2 Siroccos in 2, 2 MADCAPs in 1), Fixed Internal Hardpoints (2, Vogeljägers in each with Str 6 Mechanical Arms for reloading), Life Support (340 man-hrs), Naval Weapon Control Network-2, Noisemaker Dispenser (4 Noisemakers), Power Amplifiers-10, Remote-Control Encryption Module-5, Remote-Control Interface, Retransmission Unit, Rigger Adaptation, Smart Materials (Factored In), Special Storage Area (30 Vogeljäger Missiles), Spotlights (5)
This is 1/5th the price of a Stuart-class corvette, and I'm pretty sure it could sink one easily.
I think that while the focus on surface ships is admirable, I think subs are going to play a big part in any future navy, as they have advantages vs. those big carriers that the surface ships do not.
I have a sub design around somewhere as a coastal defensive patrol type... let me find it and I'll post it here...
-Mike R.
I have a sub design around somewhere as a coastal defensive patrol type... let me find it and I'll post it here...
-Mike R.
The whole no-cover-on-the-open-seas thing, combined with surveillance satellites, means that yes, subs do have massive advantages over surface ships. Namely, that the enemy doesn't always know exactly where they are and what they're doing.
Force 40 Vehicle Mask anyone?
~J
Force 40 Vehicle Mask anyone?
~J
how about group ritual vehicle mask, or blood magic vehicle mask !!!
-Mike R.
-Mike R.
Hmm, here's an odd question.
If ship combat in 206x is all about the missiles, what're ships doing with the ANDREWS system? An LOS-only particle beam is useless, you ship will be hammered into scrap before you ever get in range. Offering this to the military would be like offering the US Marines of today a Lightsaber, sure it's better than any other commando knife (Well sort of for certain things) but that means drek when most combat involves guns at dozens to hundreds of meters?
If ship combat in 206x is all about the missiles, what're ships doing with the ANDREWS system? An LOS-only particle beam is useless, you ship will be hammered into scrap before you ever get in range. Offering this to the military would be like offering the US Marines of today a Lightsaber, sure it's better than any other commando knife (Well sort of for certain things) but that means drek when most combat involves guns at dozens to hundreds of meters?
ANDREWs systems are intended to attack incoming missiles
~J
Edit: reading your post again, your analogy was perfect. In Star Wars, lightsabers would be useless if it weren't for the ability to block blaster bolts.
~J
Edit: reading your post again, your analogy was perfect. In Star Wars, lightsabers would be useless if it weren't for the ability to block blaster bolts.
As for on station length, the navies of SR have a huge benefit over real navies. Galley mage, force 6 Create food force 6 create water. have like 10 of these guys and you feed a crew with no supplies required.
Ships mage/doctor, heal and treat being the order of teh day, then basic recovery beds for remaining wounds.
the Fix spell, this is a huge advantage for the smaller, more oft to break components on board.
you could have a group of 10 mages all in their own initiate group with high magic ratings taking multiple spell useage rolls to reduce storage needs and overhead. That and add a few force 6 water elementals or spirits doing sub-hunts to augment the drones. Or astral perception watching the biomass of plankton part for submarines or torpedoes etc.
Ships mage/doctor, heal and treat being the order of teh day, then basic recovery beds for remaining wounds.
the Fix spell, this is a huge advantage for the smaller, more oft to break components on board.
you could have a group of 10 mages all in their own initiate group with high magic ratings taking multiple spell useage rolls to reduce storage needs and overhead. That and add a few force 6 water elementals or spirits doing sub-hunts to augment the drones. Or astral perception watching the biomass of plankton part for submarines or torpedoes etc.
I think it would be very unlikely to tie up 10 mages to supporting roles such as chef.. and healing mages need to be trained as medics and surgeons as well. Sure, with magic anything is possible. But magic is very rare, so you can't mount your strategy based on magical support (excluding dragon or elven armies)
Bah. Keebler propaganda. They're no more magical than anyone else.
Keebleros, destroyer of worlds, will make you pay for that.
~J
~J
Sub vs Surface Ship: As far as SR is concerned, the main advantage of subs over surface ships is exactly what Kagetenshi said: Cannot be tracked by satellites.
Otherwise, they aren't that great. They are more difficult to spot by sonar than surface ships are, but I have a feeling that surface ships easily having a whole lot of Sonars and some MADs balances it out. I'll have to run the figures for how the prices of subs and surface ships compare based on R3, and then maybe a few scenarios for how the spotting goes.
For the time being, I'd assume that SR submarines' lack of versatility and higher cost would limit the amount in use by all but the largest Navies. Even with those large Navies, subs wouldn't be the most common ship type simply because quick land strikes and search-and-destroy missions against enemy surface ships aren't a Navy's only priority.
Regardless, I will be designing a few subs of my own and comparing them to surface ships in most areas.
Otherwise, they aren't that great. They are more difficult to spot by sonar than surface ships are, but I have a feeling that surface ships easily having a whole lot of Sonars and some MADs balances it out. I'll have to run the figures for how the prices of subs and surface ships compare based on R3, and then maybe a few scenarios for how the spotting goes.
For the time being, I'd assume that SR submarines' lack of versatility and higher cost would limit the amount in use by all but the largest Navies. Even with those large Navies, subs wouldn't be the most common ship type simply because quick land strikes and search-and-destroy missions against enemy surface ships aren't a Navy's only priority.
Regardless, I will be designing a few subs of my own and comparing them to surface ships in most areas.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Force 40 Vehicle Mask anyone? |
For special missions, Force 20-29s might happen. More likely, though, is using Force 8-13 (Hull 2-3) to disguise small patrol and attack ships as merchant vessels, or simply raising their Signatures by a lot -- 6-12, around those numbers.
That, and conjuring spirits to Conceal the ships, would probably be marine mages' priority #1. I'm sure some might have Fix spells to help engineering and repair crews, but magical characters would be far more useful playing with Signatures -- thus if and when such characters were available, that's what they'd do. Cutting Engineering Crew amounts by a few dozen is nothing compared to raising a ship's Sig by 12.
I doubt the Astral Perception trick would work very well, since you can't see crap underwater. Unless subs have a tendency to drastically disrupt the marine biology around them, it wouldn't be worth the trouble. If subs do, however, it might give a slight edge in extreme cases -- when a mage is present, but the ship/fleet itself has poor sonar/MAD abilities, or the sub is extremely stealthy.
A long long time ago in a galaxy far far away...
A S-K owned cargo liner is carrying trendy sports shoes from factories in Liberia to Germany, to be sold in Europe. It is escorted by a single Habicht-class craft because of warnings of pirate activity in the region. Sure enough, it runs into trouble near the Canary Isles.
The Habicht is "running silent", using its Sonar in passive mode, radio on Flux 3 to communicate with the liner, and Sensors with Flux 13 -- just enough to reach the horizon with its ECCM on. It is also running its ED-3 system at Flux 11, the highest it can: 3 (Rating) x 3 (Hull + 1) + 2 (Hull), which means that its ED reaches only to 32km, almost to the horizon. The total Flux is 27, but the crew has managed to lower that to 23 for a Footprint of 2, and thus a Signature of 6/4.
The liner, a Jorgensen, is running everything at full Flux, so its Signature is well below 2 for all purposes. The SK ships are moving 25 meters per CT, so the Jorgensen is cavitating (insignificant). The Habicht is 500 meters ahead of the Jorgensen.
8km straight ahead of the Habicht, a pirate-owned Stuart-class corvette loaded with Block II Outlaws comes up from behind an island (a dead zone). The pirates also turn on their Sensors to full Flux and fire up their active Sonar with Tactical Pinging. Their Signature is thus 2/2. A pirate cargo ship is still lying in wait behind the island.
The pirates roll 4 dice with their Sonar against 2 for both the Habicht (Sonar Sig 4, -2 from Tactical Pinging) and the Jorgensen: 10, 10, 5, 2. The pirates identify the Jorgensen as such, and they (unknowingly) beat the Habicht's ED, so they only see an unknown object 500 meters ahead of the Jorgensen. With their Sensors they are rolling 4 dice against 6 for the Habicht and 2 for the Jorgensen: 5, 3, 2, 2. The pirates get a clear reading of the Jorgensen on their radar as well, but they are fooled by the Habicht -- they think it's another Jorgensen. They immediately lock on to the "Jorgensen" in front with another Sensor Test with 1 success (doesn't beat the ED), and arm their Outlaws. (I'll forego Passive Sonar).
The Habicht rolls 4 dice with its Passive Sonar against 2: 4, 4, 3, 3. The Habicht's Sonars locate the Stuart and identify as such. With Sensors they roll 10 dice against 2: 11, 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 2. They can tell the Stuart hasn't had a paint-job in a long while, has been modified, and doesn't belong to any Navy, although it has probably once been owned by a SE Asian Navy. The Habicht locks on. (Never mind the Jorgensen.)
On a common channel, the pirate Stuart transmits to what they believe to be 2 Jorgensens that there are missiles trained on them and they will be attacked unless they co-operate -- stop and wait to be boarded. The crew of the Habicht has other ideas. The pirate ship is now far enough away from the island not to make it behind it again in time. The Habicht arms its Siroccos and gets ready to fire them in Continuous Lock Mode.
Combat Turn sequence begins. The Stuart is moving at 20m/CT at 90 degrees to the SK ships. The Habicht and the Jorgensen are still moving at 25m/CT, 500 meters from each other, with the Stuart 7750 meters off the bow of the Habicht. The Stuart is in Normal Terrain (-2 Points) because of the island nearby. The SK ships are in Open (0 Points). The Stuart has -15 Vehicle Points (Hull 3), the Habicht -10, the Jorgensen -25. All ships have 2 Speed Points.
Stuart: -15, Habicht: -8, Jorgensen: -23
The Stuart already thinks it's in control of the situation and doesn't use any CP for the Maneuver Test. With 7 skill dice, the pirate rigger rolls 5 as his highest, for -10 Maneuver Score. The Habicht wants to take control, so its rigger uses 5 CP dice out of 11 and his skill of 8 and rolls 11 as highest, +3 total MS. The Jorgensen's captain rolls 7 skill dice for 5, -18 total MS.
S: -10, H: +3, J: -18
For initiative, the rigger of the Stuart rolls 9+3d6 for 22, the Habicht rolls 12+4d6 for 27, the Jorgensen rolls 5+1d6 for 8.
27 - Habicht
22 - Stuart
8 - Jorgensen
(I'll assume all riggers and crewmen in a ship move at the same time as the piloting rigger -- not accurate, but ~30 less dice rolls.)
The Habicht already has a lock-on, and is ready to fire. 2 Siroccos will be fired in Continuous Lock Mode. The responsible gunnery crewmen have Gunnery/Sirocco of 4/6, and they also get to roll 3 dice for the Intelligence of the missile and 5 from the Sensors of the Habicht. With 14 dice, they roll against the Signature of the Stuart, which is 2, modified only by -3 by Direct LOS: 11 and 13 successes. *BOOM Whoosh* *BOOM Whoosh* 2 Siroccos leave the Habicht and start moving towards the Stuart at 800m/CT.
Meanwhile the Habicht's piloting rigger tries to position his ship better for the ensuing combat. He rolls his 8 skill dice against 2: 8 successes, which will increase the Habicht's Maneuver Score by 8 in the next CT. The Habicht breaks off the formation and starts steering to protect the Jorgensen. Over to the Stuart.
The Stuart gets an Active Sensor Test to spot the missile launch. Rolling 4 dice against the Signatures of 5: 11, 11, 10, 2. They realize the so-called Jorgensen just fired 2 Siroccos at them. On their screens the offending ship is still moving on its original path, though. The missiles won't hit until at least 9 CTs have passed, so they first try to positively identify the weird ship. They try to lock on, again rolling 4 dice against the modified Sig of 6 of the Habicht: 5, 4, 4, 3. It's still showing as a Jorgensen, and it's still doing nothing on their radar screen. They are starting to panic.
Since the lock-on they have is obviously worthless, the gunnery crew cannot do anything. The piloting rigger wets his pants and starts moving the ship around to get back behind the island, now 400 meters behind it, 500 meters towards the SK ships. Positioning test with 7 skill and 7 CP, TN 2: 13 successes. The Stuart will have a MS of 3 next CT.
The Jorgensen also tries to get to a better position in case of incoming fire. With 7 skill dice against a TN of 4 (Hand 5, Open): 5 successes. The Jorgensen will have a MS of -13 next CT. They turn off all their communications gear, Sensors etc, except for the radio at Flux 4, communicating with the Habicht. Their Sig is now 1/2.
Back to the Habicht. The gunnery crews, knowing full well that the Stuart can probably swat 2 missiles from the sky, fire their other 2 Siroccos, this time in rigger-controlled mode. *BOOM Whoosh* *BOOM Whoosh* 2 riggers start riding their missiles, 270 meters behind the first two. The piloting rigger starts to accelerate the Habicht to full speed, with 8 dice against TN of 2: 7 successes, and the Habicht is moving in the same direction as the Stuart at 116m/CT.
In the Stuart, the pirates make a final attempt to lock onto the weird ship, 4 dice against 6: 17, 11, 5, 2. It's still a Jorgensen, and it's still inexplicably 500 meters ahead of the other Jorgensen, now moving away from the Stuart at 25m/CT. The Sonar shows it in a whole another direction, apparently cavitating, but they cannot get enough successes to know more. The gunnery crew is still crippled. The piloting rigger starts to accelerate towards the island with 2 CP and 7 skill dice against 3: 5 successes, and the Stuart is moving at 65m/CT towards the island.
The Habicht keeps accelerating towards the Stuart, with 8 dice TN 2: 7 successes, the Habicht is moving at its top speed of 150m/CT towards the Stuart. The riggers in the Siroccos admire the view.
The Stuart accelerates more, this time against 4 with 7 dice: 3 successes, and the Stuart is moving at 80m/CT towards the island. The Sensor crew give up on the mystery ship and attempt to lock on to the other ship instead, in case firing at it would allow them to shake off the other. 4 dice against 2: 10, 4, 4, 3. They have a lock on the Jorgensen.
End of CT 1, and time for the GM to eat. God damn this stuff is complex. And soon we'll be having a lot more missiles in the air, and then even more as people start shooting the first missiles down. Had I given the pirate ship some ECM (very reasonable), it would have caused a few more rolls and might even have jumped the Sig of the Stuart by one or two because it has an advantage in Flux (larger Hull and it's using all of it), but with the already sub-zero Sig it wouldn't've mattered a damn.
Lessons learned thus far: Always get max rating Sensors on all ships. Some ECD doesn't hurt. On any larger ship, get at least 5-6 rating Sonar as well. Don't fuck with a Habicht.
A S-K owned cargo liner is carrying trendy sports shoes from factories in Liberia to Germany, to be sold in Europe. It is escorted by a single Habicht-class craft because of warnings of pirate activity in the region. Sure enough, it runs into trouble near the Canary Isles.
The Habicht is "running silent", using its Sonar in passive mode, radio on Flux 3 to communicate with the liner, and Sensors with Flux 13 -- just enough to reach the horizon with its ECCM on. It is also running its ED-3 system at Flux 11, the highest it can: 3 (Rating) x 3 (Hull + 1) + 2 (Hull), which means that its ED reaches only to 32km, almost to the horizon. The total Flux is 27, but the crew has managed to lower that to 23 for a Footprint of 2, and thus a Signature of 6/4.
The liner, a Jorgensen, is running everything at full Flux, so its Signature is well below 2 for all purposes. The SK ships are moving 25 meters per CT, so the Jorgensen is cavitating (insignificant). The Habicht is 500 meters ahead of the Jorgensen.
8km straight ahead of the Habicht, a pirate-owned Stuart-class corvette loaded with Block II Outlaws comes up from behind an island (a dead zone). The pirates also turn on their Sensors to full Flux and fire up their active Sonar with Tactical Pinging. Their Signature is thus 2/2. A pirate cargo ship is still lying in wait behind the island.
The pirates roll 4 dice with their Sonar against 2 for both the Habicht (Sonar Sig 4, -2 from Tactical Pinging) and the Jorgensen: 10, 10, 5, 2. The pirates identify the Jorgensen as such, and they (unknowingly) beat the Habicht's ED, so they only see an unknown object 500 meters ahead of the Jorgensen. With their Sensors they are rolling 4 dice against 6 for the Habicht and 2 for the Jorgensen: 5, 3, 2, 2. The pirates get a clear reading of the Jorgensen on their radar as well, but they are fooled by the Habicht -- they think it's another Jorgensen. They immediately lock on to the "Jorgensen" in front with another Sensor Test with 1 success (doesn't beat the ED), and arm their Outlaws. (I'll forego Passive Sonar).
The Habicht rolls 4 dice with its Passive Sonar against 2: 4, 4, 3, 3. The Habicht's Sonars locate the Stuart and identify as such. With Sensors they roll 10 dice against 2: 11, 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 2. They can tell the Stuart hasn't had a paint-job in a long while, has been modified, and doesn't belong to any Navy, although it has probably once been owned by a SE Asian Navy. The Habicht locks on. (Never mind the Jorgensen.)
On a common channel, the pirate Stuart transmits to what they believe to be 2 Jorgensens that there are missiles trained on them and they will be attacked unless they co-operate -- stop and wait to be boarded. The crew of the Habicht has other ideas. The pirate ship is now far enough away from the island not to make it behind it again in time. The Habicht arms its Siroccos and gets ready to fire them in Continuous Lock Mode.
Combat Turn sequence begins. The Stuart is moving at 20m/CT at 90 degrees to the SK ships. The Habicht and the Jorgensen are still moving at 25m/CT, 500 meters from each other, with the Stuart 7750 meters off the bow of the Habicht. The Stuart is in Normal Terrain (-2 Points) because of the island nearby. The SK ships are in Open (0 Points). The Stuart has -15 Vehicle Points (Hull 3), the Habicht -10, the Jorgensen -25. All ships have 2 Speed Points.
Stuart: -15, Habicht: -8, Jorgensen: -23
The Stuart already thinks it's in control of the situation and doesn't use any CP for the Maneuver Test. With 7 skill dice, the pirate rigger rolls 5 as his highest, for -10 Maneuver Score. The Habicht wants to take control, so its rigger uses 5 CP dice out of 11 and his skill of 8 and rolls 11 as highest, +3 total MS. The Jorgensen's captain rolls 7 skill dice for 5, -18 total MS.
S: -10, H: +3, J: -18
For initiative, the rigger of the Stuart rolls 9+3d6 for 22, the Habicht rolls 12+4d6 for 27, the Jorgensen rolls 5+1d6 for 8.
27 - Habicht
22 - Stuart
8 - Jorgensen
(I'll assume all riggers and crewmen in a ship move at the same time as the piloting rigger -- not accurate, but ~30 less dice rolls.)
The Habicht already has a lock-on, and is ready to fire. 2 Siroccos will be fired in Continuous Lock Mode. The responsible gunnery crewmen have Gunnery/Sirocco of 4/6, and they also get to roll 3 dice for the Intelligence of the missile and 5 from the Sensors of the Habicht. With 14 dice, they roll against the Signature of the Stuart, which is 2, modified only by -3 by Direct LOS: 11 and 13 successes. *BOOM Whoosh* *BOOM Whoosh* 2 Siroccos leave the Habicht and start moving towards the Stuart at 800m/CT.
Meanwhile the Habicht's piloting rigger tries to position his ship better for the ensuing combat. He rolls his 8 skill dice against 2: 8 successes, which will increase the Habicht's Maneuver Score by 8 in the next CT. The Habicht breaks off the formation and starts steering to protect the Jorgensen. Over to the Stuart.
The Stuart gets an Active Sensor Test to spot the missile launch. Rolling 4 dice against the Signatures of 5: 11, 11, 10, 2. They realize the so-called Jorgensen just fired 2 Siroccos at them. On their screens the offending ship is still moving on its original path, though. The missiles won't hit until at least 9 CTs have passed, so they first try to positively identify the weird ship. They try to lock on, again rolling 4 dice against the modified Sig of 6 of the Habicht: 5, 4, 4, 3. It's still showing as a Jorgensen, and it's still doing nothing on their radar screen. They are starting to panic.
Since the lock-on they have is obviously worthless, the gunnery crew cannot do anything. The piloting rigger wets his pants and starts moving the ship around to get back behind the island, now 400 meters behind it, 500 meters towards the SK ships. Positioning test with 7 skill and 7 CP, TN 2: 13 successes. The Stuart will have a MS of 3 next CT.
The Jorgensen also tries to get to a better position in case of incoming fire. With 7 skill dice against a TN of 4 (Hand 5, Open): 5 successes. The Jorgensen will have a MS of -13 next CT. They turn off all their communications gear, Sensors etc, except for the radio at Flux 4, communicating with the Habicht. Their Sig is now 1/2.
Back to the Habicht. The gunnery crews, knowing full well that the Stuart can probably swat 2 missiles from the sky, fire their other 2 Siroccos, this time in rigger-controlled mode. *BOOM Whoosh* *BOOM Whoosh* 2 riggers start riding their missiles, 270 meters behind the first two. The piloting rigger starts to accelerate the Habicht to full speed, with 8 dice against TN of 2: 7 successes, and the Habicht is moving in the same direction as the Stuart at 116m/CT.
In the Stuart, the pirates make a final attempt to lock onto the weird ship, 4 dice against 6: 17, 11, 5, 2. It's still a Jorgensen, and it's still inexplicably 500 meters ahead of the other Jorgensen, now moving away from the Stuart at 25m/CT. The Sonar shows it in a whole another direction, apparently cavitating, but they cannot get enough successes to know more. The gunnery crew is still crippled. The piloting rigger starts to accelerate towards the island with 2 CP and 7 skill dice against 3: 5 successes, and the Stuart is moving at 65m/CT towards the island.
The Habicht keeps accelerating towards the Stuart, with 8 dice TN 2: 7 successes, the Habicht is moving at its top speed of 150m/CT towards the Stuart. The riggers in the Siroccos admire the view.
The Stuart accelerates more, this time against 4 with 7 dice: 3 successes, and the Stuart is moving at 80m/CT towards the island. The Sensor crew give up on the mystery ship and attempt to lock on to the other ship instead, in case firing at it would allow them to shake off the other. 4 dice against 2: 10, 4, 4, 3. They have a lock on the Jorgensen.
End of CT 1, and time for the GM to eat. God damn this stuff is complex. And soon we'll be having a lot more missiles in the air, and then even more as people start shooting the first missiles down. Had I given the pirate ship some ECM (very reasonable), it would have caused a few more rolls and might even have jumped the Sig of the Stuart by one or two because it has an advantage in Flux (larger Hull and it's using all of it), but with the already sub-zero Sig it wouldn't've mattered a damn.
Lessons learned thus far: Always get max rating Sensors on all ships. Some ECD doesn't hurt. On any larger ship, get at least 5-6 rating Sonar as well. Don't fuck with a Habicht.
I think I could probably have rolled additional Combat Pool dice on the attack test with the Siroccos. This make have added 4-6 successes on both of the first shots, which really wouldn't make much of a difference. The Stuart should have rolled against 3 to spot the Siroccos, -2 TN for Direct LOS, but the missiles were spotted anyway.
I will count all movement between CTs. I don't know what the canon way of doing this is, but counting it in increments of 3 seconds is by far the easiest, if rather inaccurate. Got to love ships that can accelerate at 1.4Gs.
At the start of CT 2 the situation is this: The Stuart moved 80 meters towards the island and away from the original position of the S-K ships. The Habicht came right behind it, closing 70 meters to 7680 meters. The Jorgensen moved 25 meters away from both, and is now 675 meters from the Habicht, 8355 meters from the Stuart.
Getting behind the island won't matter, because the Habicht is coming straight after the Stuart, and the missiles can swerve slightly to avoid hitting it. The missiles closed 720 meters to the Stuart, and are now at 7030 meters. The Maneuver Scores are:
S: 9, H: 24, J: -13
The Habicht swerves slightly to maintain a slight outside angle at the Stuart. The piloting rigger rolls 8 skill, TN 2: 6 successes, +6 MS next round. The crew arm the MADCAP mount, just in case.
The Stuart accelerates again, TN 4 with 7 dice: 3 successes. The Stuart is moving at 95m/CT. The comm crew maintain the lock on the real Jorgensen. The gunnery crew launch 2 Outlaws at the Jorgensen in Fire-and-Forget mode. The TN is 2 and they roll 17 dice, 6 from skill, 6 from CP and Int of 5: 13 and 15 successes. *Woosh* *Woosh* 2 Outlaws speed towards the Jorgensen at 1000m/CT.
The Jorgensen accelerates, with 7 dice TN 8 (5 Hand, -1 Open, +4 from Maneuver Scores): 0 successes. The Stuart has maneuvered so that the Jorgensen cannot increase its relative speed.
The Habicht rolls an Active Sensor Test to spot the Outlaws. (R3 does not give a Sig to anything but anti-ship munitions, so I'll go with 5.) 10 dice against TN 3: 8 successes. The Habicht can see two Outlaw Block IIs launched from the Stuart. The comm crew locks on to one missile (7 successes) while the gunnery crew pops open the Vogeljäger mounts, lowering the ship's Signature to 6. The Vogeljägers are armed.
The Stuart keeps accelerating. TN is still 4, 7 dice: 3 successes. The Stuart is finally at its top speed of 105m/CT. The pirate comm crew now goes back to trying to lock on to the mystery ship. The TN is 4 this time, with 4 dice: 1 success. The darn ship still isn't where it's supposed to, and it's still a Jorgensen. The gunnery crews are ready to shoot whenever there's a lock on, either on the mystery ship or the incoming missiles.
The Habicht swerves again to gain a good tactical position. 8 skill dice + 8 CP, TN 2: 13 successes, 7 better than last time. +13 instead of +6 to MS next CT. The comm crew Delay their action until the first Vogeljäger is fired.
The gunnery crew, knowing that Stuart doesn't have a NWCN, fires one Vogeljäger at the locked on Outlaw in Fire-and-Forget mode. Sig 5 with Direct LOS, the TN is 2, and the firing rigger rolls 17 dice, 6 skill dice + 6 Combat Pool + 5 Intelligence: 12 successes. The scatter (2d6) is reduced by 15 and the Outlaw cannot dodge, so the missile will hit. The missiles will close in at 2000m/CT, so the hit will occur in 4 CTs, very last in CT 6. The Outlaw would have to roll 14 successes on its Damage Resistance Test not to be destroyed and it doesn't have enough Body. It is doomed. The other Vogeljäger gunner delays until the comm crew has acted.
The comm crew uses their delayed action, locking on to the second Outlaw, 10 dice against 3: 7 successes. The Habicht now has a lock on the second Outlaw. The other Vogeljäger gunner immediately fires Fire-and-Forget, again rolling 17 dice against TN 2: 16 successes. The second Outlaw is in for the same fate as the first.
Active Sensor Test for the Stuart to spot the new missiles, 4 vs 3: 3 successes. They notice the 2 Vogeljägers. The Stuart tries to position itself better, 7 skill dice and 7 CP vs TN 2: 13 successes, +13 MS next CT. The comm crew again try to lock on the mystery ship, 4 vs 4: 2 successes, still no luck.
CT 3:
The Stuart kept almost the same course, traveling 105 meters. The Habicht came behind, catching up 45 meters, now at 7635 meters. The Jorgensen kept going away from both and is 850 meters from the Habicht, 8485 meters from the Stuart. The Siroccos are 6335 meters from the Stuart, the Outlaws and Vogeljägers are 5680 meters from each other. The MScores are:
S: 6, H: 18, J: -23
And on that cue, the GM is up for maintenance again.
Random Issues: Vehicle-size missiles should probably be allowed to Dodge with the Intelligence when not directly rigged, whether under NWCN or not. As it is, any ship is almost guaranteed to hit any non-rigged missile, limited only by how often the ship can lock on to new missiles and fire at them. If the lock-on rules made any sense (ie it wouldn't be a Complex Action to lock on, and vehicles could lock on to a large number of targets, as I mentioned in the The Idiot's Guide To Rigging Thread), this would be even worse.
How many Vehicle Points do anti-ship missiles get? This is required to roll the Ramming Tests when rigging them with a NWCN.
I will count all movement between CTs. I don't know what the canon way of doing this is, but counting it in increments of 3 seconds is by far the easiest, if rather inaccurate. Got to love ships that can accelerate at 1.4Gs.
At the start of CT 2 the situation is this: The Stuart moved 80 meters towards the island and away from the original position of the S-K ships. The Habicht came right behind it, closing 70 meters to 7680 meters. The Jorgensen moved 25 meters away from both, and is now 675 meters from the Habicht, 8355 meters from the Stuart.
Getting behind the island won't matter, because the Habicht is coming straight after the Stuart, and the missiles can swerve slightly to avoid hitting it. The missiles closed 720 meters to the Stuart, and are now at 7030 meters. The Maneuver Scores are:
S: 9, H: 24, J: -13
The Habicht swerves slightly to maintain a slight outside angle at the Stuart. The piloting rigger rolls 8 skill, TN 2: 6 successes, +6 MS next round. The crew arm the MADCAP mount, just in case.
The Stuart accelerates again, TN 4 with 7 dice: 3 successes. The Stuart is moving at 95m/CT. The comm crew maintain the lock on the real Jorgensen. The gunnery crew launch 2 Outlaws at the Jorgensen in Fire-and-Forget mode. The TN is 2 and they roll 17 dice, 6 from skill, 6 from CP and Int of 5: 13 and 15 successes. *Woosh* *Woosh* 2 Outlaws speed towards the Jorgensen at 1000m/CT.
The Jorgensen accelerates, with 7 dice TN 8 (5 Hand, -1 Open, +4 from Maneuver Scores): 0 successes. The Stuart has maneuvered so that the Jorgensen cannot increase its relative speed.
The Habicht rolls an Active Sensor Test to spot the Outlaws. (R3 does not give a Sig to anything but anti-ship munitions, so I'll go with 5.) 10 dice against TN 3: 8 successes. The Habicht can see two Outlaw Block IIs launched from the Stuart. The comm crew locks on to one missile (7 successes) while the gunnery crew pops open the Vogeljäger mounts, lowering the ship's Signature to 6. The Vogeljägers are armed.
The Stuart keeps accelerating. TN is still 4, 7 dice: 3 successes. The Stuart is finally at its top speed of 105m/CT. The pirate comm crew now goes back to trying to lock on to the mystery ship. The TN is 4 this time, with 4 dice: 1 success. The darn ship still isn't where it's supposed to, and it's still a Jorgensen. The gunnery crews are ready to shoot whenever there's a lock on, either on the mystery ship or the incoming missiles.
The Habicht swerves again to gain a good tactical position. 8 skill dice + 8 CP, TN 2: 13 successes, 7 better than last time. +13 instead of +6 to MS next CT. The comm crew Delay their action until the first Vogeljäger is fired.
The gunnery crew, knowing that Stuart doesn't have a NWCN, fires one Vogeljäger at the locked on Outlaw in Fire-and-Forget mode. Sig 5 with Direct LOS, the TN is 2, and the firing rigger rolls 17 dice, 6 skill dice + 6 Combat Pool + 5 Intelligence: 12 successes. The scatter (2d6) is reduced by 15 and the Outlaw cannot dodge, so the missile will hit. The missiles will close in at 2000m/CT, so the hit will occur in 4 CTs, very last in CT 6. The Outlaw would have to roll 14 successes on its Damage Resistance Test not to be destroyed and it doesn't have enough Body. It is doomed. The other Vogeljäger gunner delays until the comm crew has acted.
The comm crew uses their delayed action, locking on to the second Outlaw, 10 dice against 3: 7 successes. The Habicht now has a lock on the second Outlaw. The other Vogeljäger gunner immediately fires Fire-and-Forget, again rolling 17 dice against TN 2: 16 successes. The second Outlaw is in for the same fate as the first.
Active Sensor Test for the Stuart to spot the new missiles, 4 vs 3: 3 successes. They notice the 2 Vogeljägers. The Stuart tries to position itself better, 7 skill dice and 7 CP vs TN 2: 13 successes, +13 MS next CT. The comm crew again try to lock on the mystery ship, 4 vs 4: 2 successes, still no luck.
CT 3:
The Stuart kept almost the same course, traveling 105 meters. The Habicht came behind, catching up 45 meters, now at 7635 meters. The Jorgensen kept going away from both and is 850 meters from the Habicht, 8485 meters from the Stuart. The Siroccos are 6335 meters from the Stuart, the Outlaws and Vogeljägers are 5680 meters from each other. The MScores are:
S: 6, H: 18, J: -23
And on that cue, the GM is up for maintenance again.
Random Issues: Vehicle-size missiles should probably be allowed to Dodge with the Intelligence when not directly rigged, whether under NWCN or not. As it is, any ship is almost guaranteed to hit any non-rigged missile, limited only by how often the ship can lock on to new missiles and fire at them. If the lock-on rules made any sense (ie it wouldn't be a Complex Action to lock on, and vehicles could lock on to a large number of targets, as I mentioned in the The Idiot's Guide To Rigging Thread), this would be even worse.
How many Vehicle Points do anti-ship missiles get? This is required to roll the Ramming Tests when rigging them with a NWCN.
Why is the Habicht casing the Stuart? Seems like they could be chasing a decoy, but not know it. Sure they think they have it under control, but sticking with the Jorgensen and launching a drone seems safer. But I know nothing about military tactics.
The main reason is that I don't know anything about military tactics either, and I don't really concentrate on that side of things in the posts -- simply understanding the billions of rules involved is taking most of my brain power.
Personally, I used these excuses: 1) The Stuart would indeed get behind the island causing the first 2 Siroccos to hit it unless the Habicht itself keeps the Stuart in its Sensors. 2) The Habicht knows that Stuarts have pathetic EW capabilities. 3) The Habicht doesn't want the pirates to get away. 4) The Habicht thinks the pirates wouldn't use a 60 million nuyen ship as a decoy when trying to steal a bunch of shoes from 2 merchant ships without support. 5) I'm metagaming with the Habicht.
That said, the Habicht will not go far, since its main purpose is simply to keep a straight LOS at the Stuart. It will soon start to move at an angle at the Stuart so as to keep distance from the Jorgensen static and still keep the Stuart in sight long enough for the Siroccos to hit -- something like 24 seconds now. After that, it's only 6-9 seconds to be back in close formation with the Jorgensen. The Habicht is also likely to go for full Flux Sensor and Sonar scanning really soon.
Just firing 2 rigger-guided Siroccos would have evaded the island-problem, but it would also have meant that the Habicht would have been unable of firing any more Siroccos for a long time, unless the riggers would have jumped out of the missiles and let them at the mercy of the Stuarts missile defenses again. The Habicht does not have any drone-capabilities because of space issues, and whenever there is a more significant threat it should be escorted by larger ships that can and do launch drones and manned aircraft.
And once I'd made the decision to chase it and had done an Init Pass based on that decision, going back to change it would already have been almost impossible. I really don't want to do that math again.
All I'm hoping for is that I'm helping someone else understand the naval combat rules. Even if that simply scares everybody into not using them that's fine, at least I've made a difference.
Personally, I used these excuses: 1) The Stuart would indeed get behind the island causing the first 2 Siroccos to hit it unless the Habicht itself keeps the Stuart in its Sensors. 2) The Habicht knows that Stuarts have pathetic EW capabilities. 3) The Habicht doesn't want the pirates to get away. 4) The Habicht thinks the pirates wouldn't use a 60 million nuyen ship as a decoy when trying to steal a bunch of shoes from 2 merchant ships without support. 5) I'm metagaming with the Habicht.
That said, the Habicht will not go far, since its main purpose is simply to keep a straight LOS at the Stuart. It will soon start to move at an angle at the Stuart so as to keep distance from the Jorgensen static and still keep the Stuart in sight long enough for the Siroccos to hit -- something like 24 seconds now. After that, it's only 6-9 seconds to be back in close formation with the Jorgensen. The Habicht is also likely to go for full Flux Sensor and Sonar scanning really soon.
Just firing 2 rigger-guided Siroccos would have evaded the island-problem, but it would also have meant that the Habicht would have been unable of firing any more Siroccos for a long time, unless the riggers would have jumped out of the missiles and let them at the mercy of the Stuarts missile defenses again. The Habicht does not have any drone-capabilities because of space issues, and whenever there is a more significant threat it should be escorted by larger ships that can and do launch drones and manned aircraft.
And once I'd made the decision to chase it and had done an Init Pass based on that decision, going back to change it would already have been almost impossible. I really don't want to do that math again.
All I'm hoping for is that I'm helping someone else understand the naval combat rules. Even if that simply scares everybody into not using them that's fine, at least I've made a difference.
or infact "scare" someone into useing them
I'm gonna say WOW!! for two reasons, one it's a good read and it looks like your doing a good job there Austere Emancipator, the second is cause how much effort!! Simple and Abstract are gonna be my key words in relation to Naval the rules.
Kinda reminds me of something from Elizabeth Moon's Serrano Legacy...
Kinda reminds me of something from Elizabeth Moon's Serrano Legacy...
For a pretty good (and fun) intro to modern naval warfare, you can try the harppon series of computer games. They also include a naval encyclopedia to explain what most of this stuff is.
MAD detectors aren't that usefull since they are so short ranged. For a sub, you are looking at CZ detection of surface contacts in the 30 mile range, then picking them back up in the 4 to 10 mile range. MAD is really only good for ASW helicopters who are looking in almost the right place to begin wtih, and does not detect subs that are down deep very well anyway. Of couse... the sub need to be above the thermocline layer (~150 ft) to hear surface ships, so this usually isn't a problem.
MAD detectors aren't that usefull since they are so short ranged. For a sub, you are looking at CZ detection of surface contacts in the 30 mile range, then picking them back up in the 4 to 10 mile range. MAD is really only good for ASW helicopters who are looking in almost the right place to begin wtih, and does not detect subs that are down deep very well anyway. Of couse... the sub need to be above the thermocline layer (~150 ft) to hear surface ships, so this usually isn't a problem.
I cannot post anything longer than ~500 letters. I haven't got a clue why. I will have to continue this thread when (if) the problem ever goes away. I don't want to post a dozen messages just to do one CT.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| For a pretty good (and fun) intro to modern naval warfare, you can try the harppon series of computer games. |
I've seen some of the newer Harpoons played a few times, and I must admit it's not my kind of game. Too much looking at radar screens and trying to manage large amounts of systems in real time for me. But I have heard them mentioned before for this use, so I'm sure they're a good intro to naval warfare. Just not necessarily fun for everyone.
| QUOTE |
| MAD detectors aren't that usefull since they are so short ranged. |
This may well be the case IRL, but as the rules currently stand, MAD systems have far more range than a Sonar could ever hope for. There are no special rules for MADs, R3 only says to use normal Sensor Test rules against the sub's normal Signature. No mention of thermoclines or anything else, either.
MAD could really use a separate entry in the Sensors section of the rules, but at the moment they use the normal Sensor range, which can easily be 50-80 kilometers for dedicated spotter aircraft -- and this extends straight down as well. That basically means that 4 subhunting drones with max rating Sensors, MADs, PowerAmps, etc can cover a 100km radius area all around a surface ship and immediately spot any sub in it. You can forget about sneaking up on a carrier group in SR...
Rules-wise, Sonars are far inferior to MADs. The max range of Passive Sonar modes in SR is 50km, against ships with a Sonar Signature of 1 or less. Usually Sonar Signatures are in the 2-4 range, making the effective Passive Sonar range 12.5km-25km. Active Sonar effective range is 12.5km and 25km as well, depending on Sonar rating. Since high-rating sonars are by far the most Design Point expensive item in R3, this usually maxes out around 20km. A Rating 10 Sonar on an Attack Sub chassis costs ~150 million nuyen, compared to 45mil for Sonar-8 and 6mil for Sonar-6.
A Yankee Search range is dependent on Hull rating alone, and regardless of the fluff text in the entry, it seems you cannot modify that and are always stuck with the base Hull rating. For an Attack Sub that's 4.5km, for a large carrier 12.5km. But it's rather unlikely a sub would use active sonar against a surface ship to begin with...
R3 says to use 100-200 meters as the intervals between thermocline layers. I'll do some Googling myself once I get myself together again. A large number would be nice from a gameplay PoV...
[Edit]w00t. Working again.[/Edit]
In general the layer will be in the 150-400 feet (50-130) meters depending on the season and the ocean you are in. The Med and other closed (Persian gulf, black sea, etc) areas operate by different rules though.
You should be able to reduce your dectibaility by active sonar by covering your submarine in 'rubber' tiles to absorb and distort the sonar pings.
With a ridiculous amount of processing power, you should be able to black noise the sonar pings as well.
You should be able to reduce your dectibaility by active sonar by covering your submarine in 'rubber' tiles to absorb and distort the sonar pings.
With a ridiculous amount of processing power, you should be able to black noise the sonar pings as well.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| In general the layer will be in the 150-400 feet (50-130) meters depending on the season and the ocean you are in. The Med and other closed (Persian gulf, black sea, etc) areas operate by different rules though. |
In most cases, unless the GM really knows this stuff well, you can just use the 100 meters. Makes life a lot easier, considering how complex the rules are already.
| QUOTE |
| You should be able to reduce your dectibaility by active sonar by covering your submarine in 'rubber' tiles to absorb and distort the sonar pings. |
If you consider the Signature Improvement Design Option to work against Sonars, which it probably should, it takes care of a lot of that. Could probably use a Customization Option similar to Radar-Absorbent Materials that would only work against Sonars.
ECM doesn't work against Sonars, I think. I don't know why it would, anyway. But it makes sense that ED does, and that covers many active methods of fooling sensors that might take a lot of processing power. The extreme effectiveness of that system, coupled with a decent Signature, is portrayed well above. Against Sonars ED is even better because, like I mentioned, high-rating Sonars are extremely expensive.
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