What counts when Duel Wielding? Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Again, i dont have books in front of me, but it was my understanding that Multi-tasking made Observe in detail a free action, and when not directly involved in combat gives 2 free actions per phase. Thus it does have a use even while in combat, and of course, we were discussing if it would be a feasible adaptation to allow someone with the supernatural ability to compartmentalize their attention use mutliple targeting reticles at once.

Observation in Detail as a Free Action does not benefit a Gunbunny trying to gain the aiming bonus of a Smartlink. They are mechanically different things. You cannot aim two weapons simultaneously... even in real life. You can aim one, then shoot it and then shoot another weapon, but they happen in sequence, not in Parrallel. That is basically why you do not gain the bonus from Smartlink/Laser sights when dual weilding simultaneous shots. You cannot pay attention to each gun simultaneously, and in fact can only point in the general direction for BOTH guns simultaneously. They are not really considered to be aimed shots. Watch any action film where it is a common occurrence. NO AIMING WHATSOEVER (I know, I know... Hollywood).

I probably rambled a bit... Sorry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think what was happening in this case, looking back on what I've talked with the player about, they are initiated at level 5. They have been spending all their karma to self initiate. They have Centering, Attunement, and three levels of that thing that allows you to take an extra power point as a meta magic. Because of this, the centering reduces penalties down by 5 and attunment (which I think adds per gun) adds five dice. So, on each split pool, the character is adding five dice per hand. I don't know what else was getting that pool up there for a human, maybe it was red dot or laser sight. But it was something, plus that attunement.

Attunement only works if you actually spend karma to Attune the Individual Weapons. It is not a Category Attunement, but a SPECIFIC Weapon Attunement. ie. You must pay karma twice to attune two weapons, and they are very specific weapons.

[snowRaven]

I think what was happening in this case, looking back on what I've talked with the player about, they are initiated at level 5. They have been spending all their karma to self initiate. They have Centering, Attunement, and three levels of that thing that allows you to take an extra power point as a meta magic. Because of this, the centering reduces penalties down by 5 and attunment (which I think adds per gun) adds five dice. So, on each split pool, the character is adding five dice per hand. I don't know what else was getting that pool up there for a human, maybe it was red dot or laser sight. But it was something, plus that attunement.

In addition to having to pay Karma for Atunement, the metamagic only adds 1 dice per TWO initiate grades, if I remember correctly. So at Grade 5 he would only get 2 or 3 bonus dice (depending on how it's rounded - I don't have access to the books right now, so i can't check).

Also, remember that using Centering requires a Free Action, which means no aiming or calling shots in the same pass.

[Jeremiah Kraye]

Observation in Detail as a Free Action does not benefit a Gunbunny trying to gain the aiming bonus of a Smartlink. They are mechanically different things. You cannot aim two weapons simultaneously... even in real life. You can aim one, then shoot it and then shoot another weapon, but they happen in sequence, not in Parrallel. That is basically why you do not gain the bonus from Smartlink/Laser sights when dual weilding simultaneous shots. You cannot pay attention to each gun simultaneously, and in fact can only point in the general direction for BOTH guns simultaneously. They are not really considered to be aimed shots. Watch any action film where it is a common occurrence. NO AIMING WHATSOEVER (I know, I know... Hollywood).

I probably rambled a bit... Sorry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

What if you slave 1 arm, to a sprite or pilot drone program? have it utilize the smart link in the gun and arm control mechanism, then you retain control of the other weapon... ;3

[snowRaven]

What if you slave 1 arm, to a sprite or pilot drone program? have it utilize the smart link in the gun and arm control mechanism, then you retain control of the other weapon... ;3

Cyberarm-drone anyone??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[StealthSigma]

What if you slave 1 arm, to a sprite or pilot drone program? have it utilize the smart link in the gun and arm control mechanism, then you retain control of the other weapon... ;3

If this is possible, then your cyberarm would act on the pilot or sprite's initiative and not yours.

[Yerameyahu]

You *can* do that… with a cyber/mil-armor Weapon Mount, (possibly Articulated). AFAIK. But it's not really relevant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jeremiah Kraye]

If this is possible, then your cyberarm would act on the pilot or sprite's initiative and not yours.

So? Hey man, begger's can't be choosers, if anything it takes the burden off you.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So? Hey man, begger's can't be choosers, if anything it takes the burden off you.

And reduces the Dice pool Immensely...

[Falconer]

I think he's referring to multi-taskings ability to watch multiple displays all at once and not suffer the 'distracted' penalty.... okay... he doesn't suffer the distracted penalty... now shoot without the smartlink bonuses like the rules say.


Overall... dual wielding can work fine with heavy pistols I've found... ~10-12 dice is still a lot more than most peoples reaction pools... and in close... 2 shots from two guns at point blank is generally good enough to drop someone. (you rarely drop people with single shots in SR4 I notice... normally you need to double tap)....

So in close quarters it's a good way to drop 2 mooks a round.

And when you need the precision more than the raw volume of fire... just don't fire both at once. So good judgement comes in as well mechanically speaking.

[Glyph]

One thing to keep in mind about atunement (which gives a bonus equal to half the initiate's grade, rounded up), is that the adept "may not recieve benefits from more than one attuned item in a single action". And since the benefit only applies specifically to using the attuned item, I would say it is an obvious exception to the usual rule of modifiers being applied to both guns after the dice pool split.

[Dyspeptic]

One thing to keep in mind about atunement (which gives a bonus equal to half the initiate's grade, rounded up), is that the adept "may not recieve benefits from more than one attuned item in a single action". And since the benefit only applies specifically to using the attuned item, I would say it is an obvious exception to the usual rule of modifiers being applied to both guns after the dice pool split.

I was actually going to point the Attunement thing out in the original thread, when I was doing the math on splitting to 15 in each hand... I think the player probably missed that, or assumed it meant "per test" instead of "per action."

Also, I recently re-read Adept Centering while looking at this. While the rules say it's a "variation of Centering available only to Adepts and Mystic Adepts", it doesn't explicitly require the Free Action as Centering does. As a GM, I would rule that since it's a variant of Centering, and Centering takes a Free Action, so would Adept Centering... but I could see people lawyering up on that.

Someone brought up Tracer Ammo. I would note that the Tracer bonus only applies at ranges greater that Short (where range penalties would be in effect (yes, the range penalties could be negated by Adept Centering, as well.) Also, if you're using a Simple Action, you're limited to short bursts, so... +1.

Anyway, here's how I do 15/15.

Elf
Adept
Ambidexterity
SURGE II (Metagenetic Imp. (Agility))
Aptitude (Pistols)
Restricted Gear (Muscle Toner IV)

Purchase Martial Arts II with Karma (per OP, Krav Maga and Firefight)
Manuevers: Full Offense

Magic 5(4)

Adept Powers: Improved Ability (Pistols) III
Initiations (3): Adept Centering, Attunement, Item (Guns), ????

'Ware: Muscle Toner IV, Genetic Optimization (Agility)

Agility 8 (12) (+1 for Oxygenater Fluorocarbons) = 13
Pistols 7 (10) (Semi-Auto)

OK, so Agil + Pistol = 23, split 11/12

Dice Pool Mods:
+2 Spec
+2 Full Offense Manuever
+2 Attuned Item (first shot, only one Attuned item bonus per action)
-1 Called Shot ( first shot only, -4 penalty reduced to -1 by Adept Centering)

By my math, that's a 16/16 split.

There are a few variations, instead of calling a shot, you can move into Point Blank for another +2 and negate the Attacker in Melee penalty with Adept Centering... makes for 19/18.

So... perhaps somewhat borderline cheesy, almost certainly overspecialized, but yeah, you're a killing machine. With Pistols.

[Critias]

Don't forget, Calling a Shot is a Free action, and so is Adept Centering (so somewhere along the line, you're sacrificing Simple Actions for Frees).

[Krishach]

You cannot aim two weapons simultaneously... even in real life. You can aim one, then shoot it and then shoot another weapon, but they happen in sequence, not in Parrallel.

Actually, you can, if you have your reference points. It is just as easy to learn to shoot accurately to shoot from-the-hip in real life, though. I've done both with occasional success on a range, two targets set 45ish degrees apart, 30 yards, Rugar Mark II targeting pistols, and it is MUCH EASIER with iron sights with alignment dots, so you can tell your gun is level. I find it impossible to do with red-dot glass sights, as I can't tell what I am aiming at in my peripheral vision through them.

You can also aim (sequentially aim) two weapons much easier than the above by holding a steady line, and checking weapons individually, prior to firing simultaneously. This is possible to do even without practice, it requires simply a steady hand, and you hit 2 targets, having aimed both weapons carefully before the simultaneous discharge. I'm sure shadowrunnners skills must surely best an amateur range shooter that "combat stress" would not overrule these points either.

On real life comparisons, can someone explain to me how on earth laser sights DON'T help when dual wielding? They are a from-the-hip shooters wet dream: instant confirmation of intended target. Smartlink I can understand, with the gun-cam explanation, but lasers to me never made sense.

[Yerameyahu]

No, we already had a huge thread about that. *rocks back and forth and shakes*

Seriously though, don't fight with the RAW. Just change it if you disagree.

[StealthSigma]

No, we already had a huge thread about that. *rocks back and forth and shakes*

All work and no play makes Yera a dull boy.

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe. Personally, I think the right solution (only if this is even a problem at your table) was to allow reduced effectiveness of laser sights and smartlinks, but obviously nothing for red dot. It shouldn't be full bonus, and it shouldn't be nothing (if that's making people sad). But as we've seen, people abuse pool-splitting enough as it is. (And deserve nothing but punishment.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Elfenlied]

If smartlinks worked like an FPS Hud, then they would stack with laser sights, and both would apply while dual-wielding.

But then again, Shadowrun isn't an FPS. But that's beside the point. Personally, I feel like the designers went out of their way to make dual-wielding highly undesirable from a mechanical standpoint, and allowing laser sights/smartlinks for dual-wielding probably wouldn't impact game balance much at all.

[Yerameyahu]

There's no great reason they'd stack; that information could easily be redundant.

It should be undesirable, but as I said, the munchkins always ruin everything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) +2 to each hand would be a hefty additional imbalance.

[StealthSigma]

If smartlinks worked like an FPS Hud, then they would stack with laser sights, and both would apply while dual-wielding.

But then again, Shadowrun isn't an FPS. But that's beside the point. Personally, I feel like the designers went out of their way to make dual-wielding highly undesirable from a mechanical standpoint, and allowing laser sights/smartlinks for dual-wielding probably wouldn't impact game balance much at all.

They made dual-firing undesirable from a mechanic. There's nothing keeping you from dual wielding but only attacking with one weapon at a time. Consider it a way to "load" two types of ammunition and freely switch between them.

[VykosDarkSoul]

Shadowrun isn't an FPS

::shudder:: ....bad memories.....

[_Pax._]

Hehe. Personally, I think the right solution (only if this is even a problem at your table) was to allow reduced effectiveness of laser sights and smartlinks, but obviously nothing for red dot. It shouldn't be full bonus, and it shouldn't be nothing (if that's making people sad). But as we've seen, people abuse pool-splitting enough as it is. (And deserve nothing but punishment.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Just add the sights to the pool BEFORE SPLITTING. Voila, done.

[X-Kalibur]

::shudder:: ....bad memories.....

Unless it were more like a Rainbow Six: Raven Shield FPS...

[VykosDarkSoul]

Unless it were more like a Rainbow Six: Raven Shield FPS...

I was shuddering at the shadowrun FPS that did get released (though i kind of feel dirty even associating it with shadowrun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) )

[Critias]

I was shuddering at the shadowrun FPS that did get released (though i kind of feel dirty even associating it with shadowrun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) )

LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA IT NEVER HAPPENED LA LA LA!