Confused about rigging via datajack and cable Options

[pbangarth]

SR4A tells me that when using hot sim to rig a vehicle, I use commlink Response + character Intuition +1 for Initiative. But if my character has an implanted hot sim module and a datajack, and plugs directly into the vehicle to control it rather than through a commlink, what do I use instead of the commlink Response? And did I miss it in the book somewhere?

Twenty years in, I'm finally trying to understand vehicles. Pray for me.

[Ears]

A sim module is a accessory to your comm (yes, even if the module is implanted and the comm is not). On its own, it does nothing.

[Speed Wraith]

A sim module is a accessory to your comm (yes, even if the module is implanted and the comm is not). On its own, it does nothing.

Which means you're either using the vehicle's Response or your Commlink's, correct?

[_Pax._]

SR4A tells me that when using hot sim to rig a vehicle, I use commlink Response + character Intuition +1 for Initiative. But if my character has an implanted hot sim module and a datajack, and plugs directly into the vehicle to control it rather than through a commlink, what do I use instead of the commlink Response? And did I miss it in the book somewhere?

Twenty years in, I'm finally trying to understand vehicles. Pray for me.

You still have to use a commlink.

In fact, whether you're going to be wired to the vehicle, or controlling it via wireless, yu need an interface between yourself and the commlink, too. For full VR, that means either trodes, or a datajack. You've obviously elected for the Datajack route.

THEN, you need to make a link between the commlink, and the vehicle(s) being controlled. You can either go wireless, or, use a cable.

But no matter how you do it, the commlink is still there. The software interpreting vehicle data into simsense signals and simsense data into vehicle commands, thus allowing you to control the vehicle through VR at all, runs on that commlink.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A Vehicle Node is effectively a Comlink, though. So you would not need YOUR OWN comlink as the interface, though that is the most likely one, as it is probably better than the vehicel node.

[Speed Wraith]

A Vehicle Node is effectively a Comlink, though. So you would not need YOUR OWN comlink as the interface, though that is the most likely one, as it is probably better than the vehicel node.

That's what I was getting at. You need an interface, as _Pax._ noted, but the vehicle does have its own node and one would assume the requisite OS needed to operate the vehicle.

This does make me wonder about using vintage 2050's-era vehicles, but that's just me wondering if the 2050 book will be bringing back the old-school VCR (and I want program carriers, damnit!).

[Dr.Rockso]

Twenty years in, I'm finally trying to understand vehicles. Pray for me.

You're a brave, brave man.

[pbangarth]

But it isn't the commlink itself that converts the VR vehicle data into brain-recognizable stimuli, it's the sim module, access to which is achievable through a datajack (SR4A, p. 328). Without the sim module a commlink is a glorified telephone. On page 92/105 of Unwired, under Rigger Tricks, it tells of jacking into a bio-drone body when the cranial containment unit is removed, ie. presumably the commlink, after which the drone body can be "jacked normally".

On p. 168 of SR4A, directly jacking in to the vehicle, as opposed to remotely controlling it, is discussed.

I don't see why a commlink is needed to rig a vehicle.

EDIT: Maybe TJ has the answer?

[KarmaInferno]

Well, you need some sort of node to operate the vehicle, and either data glasses/gloves for AR rigging or a simsense module & DNI interface for VR.

The node could be the vehicle itself, but more likely you'll use your personal commlink.




-k

[Sengir]

In fact, whether you're going to be wired to the vehicle, or controlling it via wireless, yu need an interface between yourself and the commlink, too. For full VR, that means either trodes, or a datajack.

Nearly. You need an interface between your brain and the Sim Module, and the sim module has to connect to the Commlink somehow. In case of pbangarth, the Sim Module is implanted, hence it has DNI, so he can carry around the Commlink somewhere else. Thanks to the wireless world, it does not even need to be plugged into the Datajack.

However as TJ pointed out, a vehicle's node can effectively play your Commlink. By RAW (Unwired) even Peripheral Nodes have a Persona Rating of one, i.e. one person can use it as their Commlink...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

An actual comlink is NOT needed. You could use the vehicle's node to rig, as it provides all the power necessary to do so, and has all of the correct attributes in place. You could also use a Nexus as well, which is also not a Comlink. Ore ven a Peripheral node, if modded, could possibly be used (Who would do that?).

MOST Shadowrunner Riggers are likely to use their comlink (or a rigger Nexus), though, becuase it is generally of higher quality than a given vehicle node is.

To rig via AR you need an Direct Neural Interface (Datajack, Trodes, etc) and a Connection (either wireless or direct-wired cable) and for VR you must also have a Sim Module (as a SIM Module is a requirement of Virtual Reality). With an AR/Virtual link, you gain +1 Dice to your Vehicle tests. With a Virtual Reality Link, you also gain -1 Threshold.

Probably left a bit out of this, but those are the basics. For basic AR Feeds (Visual and Aural) you need to have some way of receiving the data (Image Link, Earbuds, etc). For more advanced AR Systems, you need either a Cryptosense module or a Sim Module to gain acces to those particular feeds.

[Yerameyahu]

You can't use a peripheral node unless you mod it *into* a commlink equivalent (which is what the vehicle node and the nexus are, as well: 'Standard nodes'). You knew what he meant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

By RAW (Unwired) even Peripheral Nodes have a Persona Rating of one, i.e. one person can use it as their Commlink...

This makes no sense. Yet another rules error, sigh. Luckily, the program restrictions effectively restrict this.

[CrystalBlue]

I would expect that if you're not rigging through the node of the vehicle or the node of your commlink, you have no real way of understanding the data being brought down to you. A sim mModule only allows you to change impulses of the brain to computer code, and vise versa. However, that's just the raw code. There's no translation to what that all means, which is why you need a node to interpret that. A program or interface in the commlink or the car's node would do the trick. It would tell you that those strings of numbers floating past you means that the hydraulic pressure of your brakes is getting low, and that jumble of code means your speed just broke 150 kmh.

I would assume that, as a Technomancer, my persona does all of that for me, since I 'see' the code and 'understand' it all at the same time. A sim module only allows you to 'see' it. Make sense?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You can't use a peripheral node unless you mod it *into* a commlink equivalent (which is what the vehicle node and the nexus are, as well: 'Standard nodes'). You knew what he meant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
This makes no sense. Yet another rules error, sigh. Luckily, the program restrictions effectively restrict this.

True, it has to be modified. Thought I said that (or at least implied it)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
But yes, program restrictions and Node Modifications do keep this from being crazy.

[Falconer]

Yes, skimming through all the above is for rigging through full VR using your commlink. (AR would use your meat initiative and passes).


However, there's a caveat here... if you have a control rig and are actually 'rigging' the vehicle (and not simply in full VR using a command program to drive it). Then instead of your commlink's response, you use your VEHICLES response. (effectively your vehicle persona is the drones node and response... your matrix persona is your commlink/nexus persona presence).

You become the machine, acting on the machines initiative... with none of the drawbacks/benefits of interfacing through a command program. The biggest advantage of which is your actions are far more efficient. You can actually make use of your free/simple/simple or free/complex.... while operating through command anything you do using the command program is always a complex action (even if it's using the drone to do a free action).

[pbangarth]

Thanks for the summary, Falconer. So, without a control rig, you are always, in one way or another, commanding the machine as if it were a remote device, and need some form of commlink. If you use a control rig, that is when you are integrated with the vehicle and don't need a commlink to connect to it.

Do I have it right?



And I thought I was asking a simple question. Heh.

[Falconer]

That's my understanding... but I'm in the same boat as you... thinking hey it would be neat to actually try playing a rigger for once... but any game I touch in which I have one drawn up immediately dies after a single session.

You have four options....

Drive it in meat, meat initiative/passes
Drive it in meat with an AR overlay +1 dice (p168), meat initiative/passes
Drive it from VR using a command program, -1 threshold on vehicle tests whether jacked in directly or remotely (p168), matrix initiative/passes based on your commlinks response
Become the vehicle by using your control rig... -1 threshold (VR), +2 control rig... Matrix initiative based on drones response. you can use actions as if you were the drone. (IE: you could jump into the drone... use a free action to switch the LMG from FA to BF... then use 2 simple actions to fire 2 short bursts... if doing it remotely you'd be limited to a single attack using command as a complex action).

Also remember, you need to spend one pass each combat turn making a vehicle test to control the vehicle. If you don't the vehicle is out of control the next combat turn... and automatically crashes the combat turn after that if you don't regain control.


Look at p169 for more info... it says what's a free action if you're directly plugged into or rigging the drone. As well as what actions your passengers or you can take... so yes crew serving your vehicles is allowed... (one guy can run sensors... another gun can man a gun... etc) Good if you're trying to keep everyone engaged at once.

Also look at p245 for the bits about controlling drones... (all drones are vehicles... not all vehicles are drones!!! all drones come with rigger adaptation... vehicles generally don't... without a rigger adaptation, only remote control and issuing commands are available... or driving using manual controls via meat in the case of a vehicle). "acting on the riggers initiative.... rigger and drone are considered a single unit... any tests are made using the riggers skills and the drones attributes (response for agility/reaction, sensor for intuition). So the drones 'meat' initiative is response + intution

Hmm... looks like I have this slightly wrong... "Drone initiative". Acts on the rigger's initiative... which I take to mean the rigger's matrix initiative... which would be based on his commlink's response. UNLESS the rigger is plugging directly into the vehicle and using it as his home node... (you don't NEED a commlink to rig a vehicle or control it directly through VR... you can run a command program on the drones node with you logged directly into it!). In any case, the matrix initiative would simply be the matrix initiative of the active icon/persona combo (you can have more than one... you can be plugged into a commlink AND a drone at the same time... but only one of the icons is active... they'd have differing initiatives... and it would require an action to switch between them).

I'm just thinking all this out loud as I'm reading through this... feel free to slap me down if I'm getting any of this wrong.

[Sengir]

if you have a control rig and are actually 'rigging' the vehicle

You don't rig via Control Rig any longer, that was pre-4th. Nowadays, jumping in just requires you to be in VR and a control rig just gives a bonus to Vehicle Tests.

[CrystalBlue]

You don't rig via Control Rig any longer, that was pre-4th. Nowadays, jumping in just requires you to be in VR and a control rig just gives a bonus to Vehicle Tests.

Right, I was going to say...Technomancers would be severely screwed if they had to dump around two or three essence for a control rig to be an effective rigger...

[UmaroVI]

Falconer: your second reading is correct. When jumped in, you use your Matrix initiative based on your commlink's response, but for all other purposes (such as attacking or making vehicle tests) you use your Vehicle's response.

[Yerameyahu]

Just to be totally clear: anyone can now 'rig' (== Jumped In) as long as they have a VR connection option. They can also control (== Command == Remote Control) whether in VR or just AR. AFAIK, they can also 'drive' (== AR-assisted normal operation of a vehicle) in AR (or VR, because it's a superset). The difference between controlling and driving is that driving is necessarily continuous, while Remote Control is a discontinuous sequence of commands (essentially the manual override version of Issue Commands). It's a little redundant and confusing, to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[bannockburn]

That's something, I'm a bit unclear on. As I interpret it, you get a bonus of +2 if you're jacked in via hot sim, and an additional +2 with a VCR. Any thoughts on that?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's something, I'm a bit unclear on. As I interpret it, you get a bonus of +2 if you're jacked in via hot sim, and an additional +2 with a VCR. Any thoughts on that?

Control Rig gives +2 Dice... Hot Sim VR gives +2 Dice... So a VCR used in Hot sim gives +4 Dice (Since you can use a VCR in Cold SIM for only the +2 Dice of the VCR).

[bannockburn]

Right, thanks. That's how I see it as well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[pbangarth]

You don't rig via Control Rig any longer, that was pre-4th. Nowadays, jumping in just requires you to be in VR and a control rig just gives a bonus to Vehicle Tests.

But you can still acquire a control rig, and implant it. It is described on page 338 of SR4A.