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pbangarth
SR4A tells me that when using hot sim to rig a vehicle, I use commlink Response + character Intuition +1 for Initiative. But if my character has an implanted hot sim module and a datajack, and plugs directly into the vehicle to control it rather than through a commlink, what do I use instead of the commlink Response? And did I miss it in the book somewhere?

Twenty years in, I'm finally trying to understand vehicles. Pray for me.
Ears
A sim module is a accessory to your comm (yes, even if the module is implanted and the comm is not). On its own, it does nothing.
Speed Wraith
QUOTE (Ears @ Jun 21 2012, 08:24 AM) *
A sim module is a accessory to your comm (yes, even if the module is implanted and the comm is not). On its own, it does nothing.


Which means you're either using the vehicle's Response or your Commlink's, correct?
_Pax._
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jun 21 2012, 07:17 AM) *
SR4A tells me that when using hot sim to rig a vehicle, I use commlink Response + character Intuition +1 for Initiative. But if my character has an implanted hot sim module and a datajack, and plugs directly into the vehicle to control it rather than through a commlink, what do I use instead of the commlink Response? And did I miss it in the book somewhere?

Twenty years in, I'm finally trying to understand vehicles. Pray for me.

You still have to use a commlink.

In fact, whether you're going to be wired to the vehicle, or controlling it via wireless, yu need an interface between yourself and the commlink, too. For full VR, that means either trodes, or a datajack. You've obviously elected for the Datajack route.

THEN, you need to make a link between the commlink, and the vehicle(s) being controlled. You can either go wireless, or, use a cable.

But no matter how you do it, the commlink is still there. The software interpreting vehicle data into simsense signals and simsense data into vehicle commands, thus allowing you to control the vehicle through VR at all, runs on that commlink.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein

A Vehicle Node is effectively a Comlink, though. So you would not need YOUR OWN comlink as the interface, though that is the most likely one, as it is probably better than the vehicel node.
Speed Wraith
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 21 2012, 11:53 AM) *
A Vehicle Node is effectively a Comlink, though. So you would not need YOUR OWN comlink as the interface, though that is the most likely one, as it is probably better than the vehicel node.


That's what I was getting at. You need an interface, as _Pax._ noted, but the vehicle does have its own node and one would assume the requisite OS needed to operate the vehicle.

This does make me wonder about using vintage 2050's-era vehicles, but that's just me wondering if the 2050 book will be bringing back the old-school VCR (and I want program carriers, damnit!).
Dr.Rockso
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Jun 21 2012, 07:17 AM) *
Twenty years in, I'm finally trying to understand vehicles. Pray for me.


You're a brave, brave man.
pbangarth
But it isn't the commlink itself that converts the VR vehicle data into brain-recognizable stimuli, it's the sim module, access to which is achievable through a datajack (SR4A, p. 328). Without the sim module a commlink is a glorified telephone. On page 92/105 of Unwired, under Rigger Tricks, it tells of jacking into a bio-drone body when the cranial containment unit is removed, ie. presumably the commlink, after which the drone body can be "jacked normally".

On p. 168 of SR4A, directly jacking in to the vehicle, as opposed to remotely controlling it, is discussed.

I don't see why a commlink is needed to rig a vehicle.

EDIT: Maybe TJ has the answer?
KarmaInferno
Well, you need some sort of node to operate the vehicle, and either data glasses/gloves for AR rigging or a simsense module & DNI interface for VR.

The node could be the vehicle itself, but more likely you'll use your personal commlink.




-k
Sengir
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Jun 21 2012, 04:43 PM) *
In fact, whether you're going to be wired to the vehicle, or controlling it via wireless, yu need an interface between yourself and the commlink, too. For full VR, that means either trodes, or a datajack.

Nearly. You need an interface between your brain and the Sim Module, and the sim module has to connect to the Commlink somehow. In case of pbangarth, the Sim Module is implanted, hence it has DNI, so he can carry around the Commlink somewhere else. Thanks to the wireless world, it does not even need to be plugged into the Datajack.

However as TJ pointed out, a vehicle's node can effectively play your Commlink. By RAW (Unwired) even Peripheral Nodes have a Persona Rating of one, i.e. one person can use it as their Commlink...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
An actual comlink is NOT needed. You could use the vehicle's node to rig, as it provides all the power necessary to do so, and has all of the correct attributes in place. You could also use a Nexus as well, which is also not a Comlink. Ore ven a Peripheral node, if modded, could possibly be used (Who would do that?).

MOST Shadowrunner Riggers are likely to use their comlink (or a rigger Nexus), though, becuase it is generally of higher quality than a given vehicle node is.

To rig via AR you need an Direct Neural Interface (Datajack, Trodes, etc) and a Connection (either wireless or direct-wired cable) and for VR you must also have a Sim Module (as a SIM Module is a requirement of Virtual Reality). With an AR/Virtual link, you gain +1 Dice to your Vehicle tests. With a Virtual Reality Link, you also gain -1 Threshold.

Probably left a bit out of this, but those are the basics. For basic AR Feeds (Visual and Aural) you need to have some way of receiving the data (Image Link, Earbuds, etc). For more advanced AR Systems, you need either a Cryptosense module or a Sim Module to gain acces to those particular feeds.
Yerameyahu
You can't use a peripheral node unless you mod it *into* a commlink equivalent (which is what the vehicle node and the nexus are, as well: 'Standard nodes'). You knew what he meant. smile.gif
QUOTE
By RAW (Unwired) even Peripheral Nodes have a Persona Rating of one, i.e. one person can use it as their Commlink...
This makes no sense. Yet another rules error, sigh. Luckily, the program restrictions effectively restrict this.
CrystalBlue
I would expect that if you're not rigging through the node of the vehicle or the node of your commlink, you have no real way of understanding the data being brought down to you. A sim mModule only allows you to change impulses of the brain to computer code, and vise versa. However, that's just the raw code. There's no translation to what that all means, which is why you need a node to interpret that. A program or interface in the commlink or the car's node would do the trick. It would tell you that those strings of numbers floating past you means that the hydraulic pressure of your brakes is getting low, and that jumble of code means your speed just broke 150 kmh.

I would assume that, as a Technomancer, my persona does all of that for me, since I 'see' the code and 'understand' it all at the same time. A sim module only allows you to 'see' it. Make sense?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 21 2012, 12:17 PM) *
You can't use a peripheral node unless you mod it *into* a commlink equivalent (which is what the vehicle node and the nexus are, as well: 'Standard nodes'). You knew what he meant. smile.gif
This makes no sense. Yet another rules error, sigh. Luckily, the program restrictions effectively restrict this.


True, it has to be modified. Thought I said that (or at least implied it)... nyahnyah.gif
But yes, program restrictions and Node Modifications do keep this from being crazy.
Falconer
Yes, skimming through all the above is for rigging through full VR using your commlink. (AR would use your meat initiative and passes).


However, there's a caveat here... if you have a control rig and are actually 'rigging' the vehicle (and not simply in full VR using a command program to drive it). Then instead of your commlink's response, you use your VEHICLES response. (effectively your vehicle persona is the drones node and response... your matrix persona is your commlink/nexus persona presence).

You become the machine, acting on the machines initiative... with none of the drawbacks/benefits of interfacing through a command program. The biggest advantage of which is your actions are far more efficient. You can actually make use of your free/simple/simple or free/complex.... while operating through command anything you do using the command program is always a complex action (even if it's using the drone to do a free action).

pbangarth
Thanks for the summary, Falconer. So, without a control rig, you are always, in one way or another, commanding the machine as if it were a remote device, and need some form of commlink. If you use a control rig, that is when you are integrated with the vehicle and don't need a commlink to connect to it.

Do I have it right?



And I thought I was asking a simple question. Heh.
Falconer
That's my understanding... but I'm in the same boat as you... thinking hey it would be neat to actually try playing a rigger for once... but any game I touch in which I have one drawn up immediately dies after a single session.

You have four options....

Drive it in meat, meat initiative/passes
Drive it in meat with an AR overlay +1 dice (p168), meat initiative/passes
Drive it from VR using a command program, -1 threshold on vehicle tests whether jacked in directly or remotely (p168), matrix initiative/passes based on your commlinks response
Become the vehicle by using your control rig... -1 threshold (VR), +2 control rig... Matrix initiative based on drones response. you can use actions as if you were the drone. (IE: you could jump into the drone... use a free action to switch the LMG from FA to BF... then use 2 simple actions to fire 2 short bursts... if doing it remotely you'd be limited to a single attack using command as a complex action).

Also remember, you need to spend one pass each combat turn making a vehicle test to control the vehicle. If you don't the vehicle is out of control the next combat turn... and automatically crashes the combat turn after that if you don't regain control.


Look at p169 for more info... it says what's a free action if you're directly plugged into or rigging the drone. As well as what actions your passengers or you can take... so yes crew serving your vehicles is allowed... (one guy can run sensors... another gun can man a gun... etc) Good if you're trying to keep everyone engaged at once.

Also look at p245 for the bits about controlling drones... (all drones are vehicles... not all vehicles are drones!!! all drones come with rigger adaptation... vehicles generally don't... without a rigger adaptation, only remote control and issuing commands are available... or driving using manual controls via meat in the case of a vehicle). "acting on the riggers initiative.... rigger and drone are considered a single unit... any tests are made using the riggers skills and the drones attributes (response for agility/reaction, sensor for intuition). So the drones 'meat' initiative is response + intution

Hmm... looks like I have this slightly wrong... "Drone initiative". Acts on the rigger's initiative... which I take to mean the rigger's matrix initiative... which would be based on his commlink's response. UNLESS the rigger is plugging directly into the vehicle and using it as his home node... (you don't NEED a commlink to rig a vehicle or control it directly through VR... you can run a command program on the drones node with you logged directly into it!). In any case, the matrix initiative would simply be the matrix initiative of the active icon/persona combo (you can have more than one... you can be plugged into a commlink AND a drone at the same time... but only one of the icons is active... they'd have differing initiatives... and it would require an action to switch between them).

I'm just thinking all this out loud as I'm reading through this... feel free to slap me down if I'm getting any of this wrong.


Sengir
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 21 2012, 08:28 PM) *
if you have a control rig and are actually 'rigging' the vehicle

You don't rig via Control Rig any longer, that was pre-4th. Nowadays, jumping in just requires you to be in VR and a control rig just gives a bonus to Vehicle Tests.
CrystalBlue
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jun 22 2012, 05:07 AM) *
You don't rig via Control Rig any longer, that was pre-4th. Nowadays, jumping in just requires you to be in VR and a control rig just gives a bonus to Vehicle Tests.


Right, I was going to say...Technomancers would be severely screwed if they had to dump around two or three essence for a control rig to be an effective rigger...
UmaroVI
Falconer: your second reading is correct. When jumped in, you use your Matrix initiative based on your commlink's response, but for all other purposes (such as attacking or making vehicle tests) you use your Vehicle's response.
Yerameyahu
Just to be totally clear: anyone can now 'rig' (== Jumped In) as long as they have a VR connection option. They can also control (== Command == Remote Control) whether in VR or just AR. AFAIK, they can also 'drive' (== AR-assisted normal operation of a vehicle) in AR (or VR, because it's a superset). The difference between controlling and driving is that driving is necessarily continuous, while Remote Control is a discontinuous sequence of commands (essentially the manual override version of Issue Commands). It's a little redundant and confusing, to me. smile.gif
bannockburn
That's something, I'm a bit unclear on. As I interpret it, you get a bonus of +2 if you're jacked in via hot sim, and an additional +2 with a VCR. Any thoughts on that?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jun 22 2012, 07:08 AM) *
That's something, I'm a bit unclear on. As I interpret it, you get a bonus of +2 if you're jacked in via hot sim, and an additional +2 with a VCR. Any thoughts on that?


Control Rig gives +2 Dice... Hot Sim VR gives +2 Dice... So a VCR used in Hot sim gives +4 Dice (Since you can use a VCR in Cold SIM for only the +2 Dice of the VCR).
bannockburn
Right, thanks. That's how I see it as well smile.gif
pbangarth
QUOTE (Sengir @ Jun 22 2012, 05:07 AM) *
You don't rig via Control Rig any longer, that was pre-4th. Nowadays, jumping in just requires you to be in VR and a control rig just gives a bonus to Vehicle Tests.

But you can still acquire a control rig, and implant it. It is described on page 338 of SR4A.
KarmaInferno
The point is, you don't need it anymore.

It's a nice extra option if you can afford the essence/nuyen, but it's no longer the defining bit of gear that makes a rigger.




-k
Falconer
Yes, also keep in mind the rigger module doesn't add to all vehicle tests. (easy enough to cover for with a perception specialization in sensors for a rigger).


It only helps with those involving vehicle skills. (so vehicle sensors don't benefit). But gunnery and piloting do because they're vehicle active skills.

Thanks for the pointers and corrections...
Modular Man
Evasive Driving does not benefit, either. Dodge is by no way a Vehicle skill.
Also note that you get another additional two dice to, well, everything while being jumped in. It's the bonus on matrix actions while in hot sim VR (see p. 245, SR4A). I can also recommend a decent (speaking rating 6) reality filter for additional response.
This whole topic is just on time, I'll be needing this information later the day smile.gif Thank you, all.
Yerameyahu
Evasive Driving should be Piloting (and valid for the bonus) if *anything* is.

Just to re-remind: you can jump in without being *hot* VR, of course, so you don't just 'get the bonus' unconditionally.
Falconer
Modular: Read p170.... Attacks against Vehicles & Evasive Driving

Some people allow the rigger to simply roll response + piloting... and ignore the chart.

By RAW it could be allowable though it's grey and depends on the GM. The reason... vehicles can roll... and all drones are vehicles. But the paragraph above says see the chart on p244 for which skills to use on tests while jumped-in.


Drones need to roll pilot + defense autosoft... they can't go on full defense by rolling pilot + manuever autosoft... So I see no problem in requiring the rigger to actually use the dodge skill. (otherwise dodge turns into an entirely pointless skill... if in personal scale combat.. use gymnastics instead... superior in all ways... if in a vehicle just keep using your piloting skill instead).


Also, be aware that you're using the drones sensors while you're rigging... sensors have their own set of visibility modifiers depending on what you're looking at... p171. The normal mode used for firing is 'sensor + gunnery'... the rules are explicit here "The targetís Signature modifiers are also applied as a dice pool modifier." So you're looking at an automatic -3 to fire at a street sam for example. (this is offset by your +2 hotsim, and +2 control rig though!).

Active targetting, is like passive gunnery.. only it gives extra +dice for attacks based on your sensor perception test to lock-on. You still have to deal with the signature table though.

If you're actively driving a vehicle... you have two options for perception checks. Normal perception (intuition + perception) which is just your meat senses noticing things... or you can roll sensor + perception (your vehicle sensors to notice things instead).
Modular Man
Ah, yes. That is a bit contradictory. I'd personally go for allowing either one as using the vehicle skill compares nicely to gymnastic dodging (and parrying, in a way).
It gets a little bit confusing when adding vehicle combat rules into the mix, I think.
Besides, as already mentioned, sensor + perception does not receive the control rig bonus as perception is not a Vehicle skill. At least, that's what I think of it. With active targeting you can off-set the penalty to sensor checks, though, I'd say. You could get around the malus for perception checks if you use vision and audio enhancements on some sensors and exclusively use these.
...or you just treat the Signature table as a table only for vehicle-based radar and the like, as most cars have one, and treat the other "senses" just as usual. That would be more of a house rule, though.
Krishach
A technomancer's brain functions as it's own node; it's own comm.

I personally believe that using "Dodge" doesn't make a bit of sense in remote controlling and is absolute crap: a misprint at best. Please tell me how the physical skill of "dodge" is related to driving, but "pistols" and "gunnery" remain distinct?

From the book SR4A:
When a vehicle is attacked in ranged combat, the driver rolls his
Reaction +/– Handling as the defense part of the Opposed Test.
Drones roll their Pilot +/– Handling. See also Rigging, p.†244 for tests
while “jumped in.”
EVASIVE DRIVING
Vehicles that are under attack can take a Complex Action and un-
dertake evasive driving—the vehicle equivalent of full defense. This
means the driver of the vehicle can add his Vehicle skill dice to the
defense dice pool to dodge ranged attacks (drones add their Defense
autosoft rating, see p.†246). Evasive driving cannot be used against
ramming attacks.

Our group insists that Riggers require the piloting skill to add to remote control tests, and jumped in tests as well (though I could see "jumped in dodging" as a potential argument, it does muddy the waters further).
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Krishach @ Jun 28 2012, 04:11 PM) *
I personally believe that using "Dodge" doesn't make a bit of sense in remote controlling and is absolute crap: a misprint at best. Please tell me how the physical skill of "dodge" is related to driving, but "pistols" and "gunnery" remain distinct?

Totally agree. And the argument that this makes the Dodge skill useless doesn't hold water, either. If this makes the Dodge skill useless, well, get rid of the Dodge skill, don't do something that doesn't make sense just to make it "useful"...
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