Improved Physical attribute Options

[HentaiZonga]

we houseruled the cost to a straight 0.5

So did we. It brings it better in-line with augmentation, and resolves the build-order paradox.

[Krishach]

dare I ask, but is that stacking with the discount from things like Way of the Warrior?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So did we. It brings it better in-line with augmentation, and resolves the build-order paradox.

What Build-Order Paradox?

[UmaroVI]

RAW, if you have IPA, it then costs you more to raise the attribute with karma. EG, if you buy Strength 3, and then IPA, you have Strength 3(4) and it costs 25 karma to go to strength 4(5). If you buy Strength 3, then buy another point, it costs you 20 karma, and if you buy IPA now, you still have 4(5). This is odd and also leads to strange things like adepts wanting to practice their weightlifting in a background count.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

RAW, if you have IPA, it then costs you more to raise the attribute with karma. EG, if you buy Strength 3, and then IPA, you have Strength 3(4) and it costs 25 karma to go to strength 4(5). If you buy Strength 3, then buy another point, it costs you 20 karma, and if you buy IPA now, you still have 4(5). This is odd and also leads to strange things like adepts wanting to practice their weightlifting in a background count.

Why is that a Paradox?
It is just how it works. At some point (You reach your Unaugmented Maximum), all you have left is IPA... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[UmaroVI]

It's not a "paradox," really, just stupid.

[Umidori]

I also find it pretty stupid.

The gut feeling I have is that anything which is enhancing my attributes, but which isn't a permanent part of my normal, natural body, shouldn't be affecting my karma costs. If you give me a piece of 'ware that flat out boosts my strength by 2 points, it shouldn't be easier to increase my meatbody Strength before adding on that 'ware compared to adding it on afterwards. The same should apply for magic - both spells and adept powers.

As Umaro mentioned, it's stupid for the system to make it so that an adept would want to work out in a background count for optimal gains, and it'd be just as stupid for a sammy to want to undergo surgery to have his 'ware taken out before he hit the gym. Or extend the metaphor - what if someone had a long-term sustained spell improving their attributes on them while they were spending karma on their physical attributes? Would they face increased karma costs if (for whatever reason) they didn't drop the spell? Or what if you're wearing Mil-Spec armor with Strength boosters instead? Yeah, realistically you probably would take that off before pumping iron, but from a game rules standpoint it'd be flat out ridiculous to charge you extra karma to increase your stats while wearing it.

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What?

IT IS Easier to raise Strength from 3 to 4 than it is to Raise it from 6 to 7. That only makes sense. IPA is a PERMANENT addition to the character. So therefore it makes it Harder to raise the attribute after IPA has been added. That is only logical. My question would be why doesn't Cyberware and Bioware work that way?

Working out in BGC, so that a character could raise an Attribute more cheaply, is just stupid, and I would never allow such stupidity. Why would you?

*Shrug*

[DMiller]

What?

IT IS Easier to raise Strength from 3 to 4 than it is to Raise it from 6 to 7. That only makes sense. IPA is a PERMANENT addition to the character. So therefore it makes it Harder to raise the attribute after IPA has been added. That is only logical. My question would be why doesn't Cyberware and Bioware work that way?

Working out in BGC, so that a character could raise an Attribute more cheaply, is just stupid, and I would never allow such stupidity. Why would you?

*Shrug*

TJ,

I think that was the question... Why does IPA act that way and cyber and bio doesn't. I think the argument is "just make IPA like cyber/bio". I could of course be mistaken.

-D

*edit*
I have never taken IPA for any of my adepts BECAUSE of this.

[phlapjack77]

IT IS Easier to raise Strength from 3 to 4 than it is to Raise it from 6 to 7. That only makes sense. IPA is a PERMANENT addition to the character.

It's not really permanent, is it? Entering a BGC causes the improvement to go away...

I see more of an argument for this to work the exact opposite way, because cyber/bio ARE permanent parts of the character now (since Essence has been paid).

But I wouldn't agree with this argument either (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It seems karma costs should be calculated against base, "unmodified" attributes.

Working out in BGC, so that a character could raise an Attribute more cheaply, is just stupid, and I would never allow such stupidity. Why would you?

This is the old argument, where you're admitting there is a problem, then saying that you just ignore the problem by house rules or DM fiat. Why not fix the wonky rules in the first place?

[Midas]

... or the Adept could install Muscle Toner and/or Augmentation, take the hit on Essence and Magic, thereby lose his IPA power point and raise by karma as normal.

Much as I tend to think there are swings and roundabouts to a lot of the alleged "wonkier" sides of the RAW, this is one case where it makes no sense. To be honest I would be all for added karma cost to increase bioware augmented attributes for sure, but a case could be made that cyberware would be exempt (it's not like Muscle Replacement is not a clunky essence-intensive ugly cousin to toner and augmentation anyway, and it might make sense that the karma required to improve your meat muscles would be the same as the unaugmented guy, it is just boosted by hydraulics and gears) ...

[Krishach]

The gut feeling I have is that anything which is enhancing my attributes, but which isn't a permanent part of my normal, natural body, shouldn't be affecting my karma costs.

I'm assuming you mean only the increased phys adept cost for over natural maximum? Karma costs for increasing are no different.
That aside, I personally find augmentation an easier route for anyone but a mystic adept. Pure adepts end up having more money around the house than pure-aug characters in any case.