..was trying to make an Adept, but can' t remember what is cost of Improved Physical Attribute
adept power...0,75 pp/lvl or 0,5 pp/lvl..
could some1 give me answer??...

The rulebook?

Bye
Thanee

P.S. It's .75

TY for quick answer!!

(loaned my books to friend , who PROMISED to bring them back...but didn't)..(yet..)

0.75 up to unaugmented max
1.5 after that

What no one mentioned so far: Better don't take that power in the first place

I'd avoid it, yeah.

Not THAT horrible. Some builds benefit from it...

When they did the rules for adepts, they wanted to give them a slightly different niche than street samurais. So they made some things easier to get with augmentations, and other things easier to get with magic. But the side effect of this is that adepts who get augmentations for the stuff that is harder to improve with magic have a sizable advantage over "pure" adepts.

Attribute improvement and initiative improvement are the two things that are most costly to improve with magic. An adept getting two levels of muscle toner and two levels of muscle augmentation only loses one point of magic to, say, raise those two attributes from 5 to 7. Doing it with improved physical attribute would cost 0.75 x 2 to raise them to 6, then 1.5 x 2 to raise them to 7. That's 4.5 power points! And the adept using bioware can still get 0.2 Essence more in augmentations - maybe reflex recorders for two combat skills, the equivalent of another power point for a "pure" adept. A synaptic booster: 2 also costs only 1 point of Essence, and gives the equivalent of a power that costs 2.5 power points.


Still, if you are playing a pure adept for roleplaying reasons, as I have done myself, then barring muscle toner, the best bang for the buck is to get one level of improved physical attribute to raise Agility to the (unaugmented) maximum, and then get one level of attribute boost for it. It's not bad for one power point in total cost.

No, they really don't (compared to the bioware versions). Compare .75 or 1.5 per level to, at most .2 per level (not counting biocompatability, grades of augmentation, or Type O).

That's...I mean, that's a big friggin' difference, TJ. I'm all for fighting the good fight, defending the system, loving the game warts and all, and rooting for unaugmented adepts -- y'all know me -- but there's times to just accept that it is what it is. 2.25 Power Points to get Agility from 5 to 7, versus .4 Essence to get Agility from 5 to 7? That's one of those times. There's no shame in succumbing to the overwhelming power of basic mathematics, and sometimes losing a point of Magic to dip into the well.

Some builds are detrimentally affected by Augmentations. In those cases the Improved Physical Attrubute is a better choice. Yes, You can get Augmentations for far cheaper, I agree. Not all builds want Augmentations, though. I prefer an Augmented Adept most of the time, but by no means do I prefer it always. It is always concept driven for me. Besides, when using a Way, they become even more attractive for a pure Adept.

I rarely build to mathematical perfection. I prefer the Concept over mathematical optimization.

Improved Physical Attribute can also be used to raise body, which is not that easy to raise through 'ware.

exactly what i did..

Then choose a different 15 points of negative Qualities than Sensitive System.

Who said anything about that particular Negative Quality?
There are just some concepts that would refuse Augmentations, regardless of how they impacted their systems. In those cases, Improved Physical Attribute is pretty darn nice. Especially when combined with a Way Bonus and Geas.

I need to start using smileys in my posts like Yerameyahu...

Heh... Indeed, Somtimes it is hard to tell if you are being sarcastic or not...

Sensitive System doesn't really affect adepts that much anyways, since they tend to go for bioware, which is not affected by Sensitive System.

....

Drat.

we houseruled the cost to a straight 0.5

In this, it is more cost efficient to get bioware upgrades and adept powers together if you do some careful planning. Bioware itself is cost prohibitive, and trying to get alpha or better can become extremely so. Some adept powers have no bioware equivalent, and some bioware has no adept equivalent.

I personally made a character that split the line (a ghoul brawler) and found it surprisingly limiting and frustrating despite careful planning: you find yourself sitting on money piles and karma piles like an impatient RTS player, waiting for that last drop.

Plan the order, cost, karma, overlap, and everything else out beforehand to save yourself some buyers remorse.


And then there is the aforementioned Boost power, which is the equalizer for short term. Boost requires a Magic + Boost test, and bringing your magic up short with bioware can really hose you on it.



One particular aspect I've noticed about biowared adepts though. You HAVE to keep raising your magic attribute in a constant karmic race to prevent total power loss by reducing your magic less than one.
Adepts have to raise magic (eventually) to continue their powers anyway though.
So here is the clinch: initiation levels can buy you adept power points. And a "way" can net you a decent discount. On bioware, too (burnout way)
biowared-adepts can also get these power points, allowing them to keep what they have as they lose essence to implants.
The line is a one I'd only push if you have a casual GM. Ours; you could possibly lose essence for other reasons: being fed on by Essence Drain, huge physical damage, etc.

I picked Improved Physical Attribute in conjunction with the Warriors Way for my gun adept. She has improved agility which works for her focus on firearms.

Any of the Sapient Critter adepts are not gonna really have implant augmentations as an option in most cases.





-k

why is that? There are markups, sure, but the comparability costs are there.

Deltaware bioware is very expensive, and not available at char-gen. The chrome critters rule lets you get lower-grade implants, even if they are treated as second-hand 'ware for Essence costs, but it is an optional rule, so not every table will use it.

True. Char-gen though I think that kind of limiting factor becomes necessary to prevent stat-raping. Without it, you could easily get a vampire/pixie with an agility of 12 on a starting character, or a Dzoo-Noo-Qua with a STR 15, or a Pixie with a reaction 11 (12 max). Agility and Reaction especially are core stats that max at 9/10 for everyone else. I just wish it applied to all infected too, not just Regenerating ones, for the same reasons.

So did we. It brings it better in-line with augmentation, and resolves the build-order paradox.

dare I ask, but is that stacking with the discount from things like Way of the Warrior?

What Build-Order Paradox?

RAW, if you have IPA, it then costs you more to raise the attribute with karma. EG, if you buy Strength 3, and then IPA, you have Strength 3(4) and it costs 25 karma to go to strength 4(5). If you buy Strength 3, then buy another point, it costs you 20 karma, and if you buy IPA now, you still have 4(5). This is odd and also leads to strange things like adepts wanting to practice their weightlifting in a background count.

Why is that a Paradox?
It is just how it works. At some point (You reach your Unaugmented Maximum), all you have left is IPA...

It's not a "paradox," really, just stupid.

I also find it pretty stupid.

The gut feeling I have is that anything which is enhancing my attributes, but which isn't a permanent part of my normal, natural body, shouldn't be affecting my karma costs. If you give me a piece of 'ware that flat out boosts my strength by 2 points, it shouldn't be easier to increase my meatbody Strength before adding on that 'ware compared to adding it on afterwards. The same should apply for magic - both spells and adept powers.

As Umaro mentioned, it's stupid for the system to make it so that an adept would want to work out in a background count for optimal gains, and it'd be just as stupid for a sammy to want to undergo surgery to have his 'ware taken out before he hit the gym. Or extend the metaphor - what if someone had a long-term sustained spell improving their attributes on them while they were spending karma on their physical attributes? Would they face increased karma costs if (for whatever reason) they didn't drop the spell? Or what if you're wearing Mil-Spec armor with Strength boosters instead? Yeah, realistically you probably would take that off before pumping iron, but from a game rules standpoint it'd be flat out ridiculous to charge you extra karma to increase your stats while wearing it.

~Umi

What?

IT IS Easier to raise Strength from 3 to 4 than it is to Raise it from 6 to 7. That only makes sense. IPA is a PERMANENT addition to the character. So therefore it makes it Harder to raise the attribute after IPA has been added. That is only logical. My question would be why doesn't Cyberware and Bioware work that way?

Working out in BGC, so that a character could raise an Attribute more cheaply, is just stupid, and I would never allow such stupidity. Why would you?

*Shrug*

TJ,

I think that was the question... Why does IPA act that way and cyber and bio doesn't. I think the argument is "just make IPA like cyber/bio". I could of course be mistaken.

-D

*edit*
I have never taken IPA for any of my adepts BECAUSE of this.

It's not really permanent, is it? Entering a BGC causes the improvement to go away...

I see more of an argument for this to work the exact opposite way, because cyber/bio ARE permanent parts of the character now (since Essence has been paid).

But I wouldn't agree with this argument either It seems karma costs should be calculated against base, "unmodified" attributes.


This is the old argument, where you're admitting there is a problem, then saying that you just ignore the problem by house rules or DM fiat. Why not fix the wonky rules in the first place?

... or the Adept could install Muscle Toner and/or Augmentation, take the hit on Essence and Magic, thereby lose his IPA power point and raise by karma as normal.

Much as I tend to think there are swings and roundabouts to a lot of the alleged "wonkier" sides of the RAW, this is one case where it makes no sense. To be honest I would be all for added karma cost to increase bioware augmented attributes for sure, but a case could be made that cyberware would be exempt (it's not like Muscle Replacement is not a clunky essence-intensive ugly cousin to toner and augmentation anyway, and it might make sense that the karma required to improve your meat muscles would be the same as the unaugmented guy, it is just boosted by hydraulics and gears) ...

I'm assuming you mean only the increased phys adept cost for over natural maximum? Karma costs for increasing are no different.
That aside, I personally find augmentation an easier route for anyone but a mystic adept. Pure adepts end up having more money around the house than pure-aug characters in any case.