Changing Immunity to Normal Weapons, Not immune to houseruling, are we? Options

[The_Vanguard]

Running Ghost Cartels with a party that currently includes two mages (one standard summoner, one possession type) made me think about how you could streamline the (IMHO) somewhat clunky rules for Immunity to Normal Weapons.

I've been thinking about changing ItNW to giving you automatic successes for damage resistance equal to Magic (maybe Magic x1.5 or x2).

Now, this would make things more simple, but I wonder if it wouldn't go too far and mangle the power beyond all recognition. Things that will be affected by it:

* It's more easy to get past the invulnerability threshold, but actual damage reduction is more concise
* AP does not matter for ItNW now, so APDS and Stick'n'Shock are not anti-spirit ammo anymore
* S'n'S will still help low-damage weapons by upping their DV to 6(s), while all other guns benefit from DV-boosting ammo
* You should pack some buckshot when you go spirit hunting with your trusty ol'double barrel
* Automatic fire will be more effective now, so bring the LMG instead of the Panther


So, what do you think?

[Yerameyahu]

Are all of the listed consequence supposed to be desirable, or just for discussion? Should spirits be particularly vulnerable to shotgun shot and burst fire, compared to fewer, stronger attacks?

Given how common burst fire is, even Magic*2 autohits wouldn't really help them, poor spirits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So, the spirits no have 0 armor, right? So they never take (converted) Stun, just tons of Physical?

There are some other options I think I've seen:
A) Keep armor as normal (or at some lesser multiplier of Force), but it's not hardened; you get do autohits.
B) ITNW is actually X+Force*Y (where Y is less than 2).
C) ITNW is a spirit-specific power/optional power, so that Earth spirit actually is the tank, while the Air one is maybe better used as a spy/caster.
D) ITNW is normal, but less than F*2 (this really only helps tone down the strong ones, though).

[The_Vanguard]

Are all of the listed consequence supposed to be desirable, or just for discussion? Should spirits be particularly vulnerable to shotgun shot and burst fire, compared to fewer, stronger attacks?

Just for discussion. I don't really want things to be different, just more in line with my aesthetic preferences. The power should still work as inteded.

Given how common burst fire is, even Magic*2 autohits wouldn't really help them, poor spirits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So, the spirits no have 0 armor, right? So they never take (converted) Stun, just tons of Physical?

I'm not sure how they're supposed to convert damage to stun originally. The way I read the rule, they don't get any damage at all in that case.

Well, let's have a look at some numbers.
Sam Street has Agi 7, skill 5, smartgun and no mage chummer close by when he goes against a Force 6 fire spirit. Thus, he has to rely on his Ingram White Knight to save the day. He shoots a long narrow burst (no RC).

RAW:
With AP-1, Sam needs to deal DV12 at least in order to do any potential damage at all. The spirit gets 3 defense hits avg., so he needs about 9 hits. Pretty unlikely without Edge, but if he makes it, the spirit is hit with DV 17 and resists with a DP of 18. That's about a 50% chance to bite it in one hit.
If he loads it with S'n'S, ItNW gets cut in half and doesn't protect against DV6 at all. It's disruption time!

Auto-hits equal to force:
Sam gets 5 hits on avg., resulting in 2 net hits avg. That's DV13 resisted by 7 Body and 6 auto-hits, i.e. 5 damage avg. S'n'S doesn't change that outcome.

Thus, per RAW it's hard to wound the spirit, but when you do it's toast. With this housrule it's more easy to land a hit that hurts, but the spirit is more likely to survive.

[Yerameyahu]

Thus, per RAW it's hard to wound the spirit, but when you do it's toast.

Yeah, this is how armor works in general in this game, unfortunately, but it's worse for vehicles and things with Hardened Armor.

I'm just asking about the new state of affairs: they have 0 armor, so they effectively won't be taking Stun. This is the same as a naked human, except almost all humans in 2070 have some kind of armor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As you say, this wasn't a concern in the RAW, because they'd be taking *no* damage.

[Tanegar]

If you want spirits to be really scary, rule Immunity to Normal Weapons to be exactly what it says on the tin: spirits cannot be harmed by non-focus weapons.

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe. Personally, I want them to be only moderately scary, about on par with vehicles (or somewhat less, cuz they're *free*).

So I dunno if the math is even right on this, but here's my quick mockup of non-special gun attacks on spirits of F3 and F6 in the RAW and OP variant (1 net hit, so it's assuming they beat the dodge; Bod/3 hits on resistance). This is just to quantify the consequences that OP already listed:
-- (Using Ares Pred, Ingram X [FA], White Knight [FA], Panther)

RAW, F3: 2, 0, 12, 9 boxes of damage
RAW, F6: 0, 0, 0, 6

OP's, F3: 1, 10, 11, 6
OP's, F6: 0, 6, 7, 2

So, as we knew, FA goes crazy, and everything else is basically crap. :/ Given that the OP's state goal is 'just simplify', this doesn't seem good. The F6 spirit is barely stronger than the F3, both of which are tissue paper against FA, while non-FA need major net hits to even do anything. As we knew, AP doesn't matter, which seems like a bad thing.

You *can* fluff this, of course: 'spirits are just inherently overwhelmed by many attacks in rapid succession'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) However, they're supposed to be a challenge, and we can see that increasing Force even to the limits of most mages (7-10) will barely help against a machine pistol. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

If the autohits effect is F*1.5 or F*2, we don't get anything better: everything's a little weaker across the board, but it's linear, so the FA edge is still there, and the Panther can't hurt the F6. At F*2, FA is still wrecking the F3, but almost nothing can hurt the F6 (so, that's not great; in RAW, at least the Panther can thunk him).

To me, these all (inc. RAW) have the same basic scaling problem: F6+ is way, way stronger than F3. One way to change this curve is to apply a y-intercept (something like, Armor = 3 + F). Because DV is already sort of nonlinear, it might be okay for a F3 to have 6 armor (same as RAW), while a F6 has 9. F1 has the minimum (4 Hardened Armor), which seems reasonably low, but also high enough to stop sneezes and mean looks.

Admittedly, this does not at all address the OP's complexity complaint. :\

[phlapjack77]

I'm just asking about the new state of affairs: they have 0 armor, so they effectively won't be taking Stun...

Do spirits take stun in the first place? I thought they (along with every other critter) only had 1 damage track..

[Yerameyahu]

I've heard it both ways, so I thought I'd ask. AFAIK, single-track is an optional rule for everything ('grunts').

To simplify matters for the gamemaster, grunts only possess one Condition Monitor that tracks both Physical and Stun damage.

It does make them more vehicle-like, heh.
You do see things like this, implying at least some critters have both:

A critter with Regeneration rapidly heals any damage. At the end of a Combat Turn, make a Magic + Body Test. Each hit regenerates 1 point of Physical or Stun damage. If a critter has already taken enough damage to enter into Physical damage overflow, the critter is not considered dead until it has had a chance to make a Regeneration Test.

[phlapjack77]

The rules almost always say, the GM should make stuff up as they like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Reading the rules for Critters, it says either treat them as a "grunt", with one condition track, or treat them as more important and prime-runnery, then they would probably have both condition tracks.

*edit* ninja'd, ninja'ing back:

"A gamemaster can also create prime runner critters, to reflect showcase critters that will feature prominently in an adventure or campaign."

[Yerameyahu]

Right, except I'm not sure it's even 'either'. It says, 'can treat as grunt, esp. in packs'. And then it says, 'can also make prime runner critters', which seems like an unrelated option.

Hehe, the blinding speed of edits! So, it seems like it's just a bunch of options for the GM. The default is presumably *not* grunts, nor prime runners (which are only the really special ones), and is 2 tracks.

Obviously, the fluff and/or game abstraction can support either way. In ideal terms, I think it'd be good to have Stun for spirits; it lets them stay around longer, but with increasing penalties, and it means they're subject to (some of) the normal tradeoffs of stun/physical (… and it explains S&S, sort of). We want the spirits to be neither tissue paper nor supertanks, after all, and they're not explicitly immune to stun (like vehicles).

[Neraph]

I agree with Yerameyahu: it seems more problematic than normal and it seems to trivialize spirits. I was thinking about a House-Rule similar to this, but after seeing some of the mathematical scenario data I think I'll just stick with what it is currently.

[Yerameyahu]

So, I'm thinking there *is* no way to avoid burst-fire wrecking everything without Hardening, not while keeping anything like autohits (which wrecks non-burst). They're disrupted if their Stun fills (if they even have one), so it's no good letting it convert to Stun (like a normal metahuman). You'd have to have a whole special rule that significantly reduced converted Stun; while I've seen it suggested before for SR4 in general, we'd ideally not want to add much more complexity. :/

[Irion]

Are all of the listed consequence supposed to be desirable, or just for discussion? Should spirits be particularly vulnerable to shotgun shot and burst fire, compared to fewer, stronger attacks?

Given how common burst fire is, even Magic*2 autohits wouldn't really help them, poor spirits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So, the spirits no have 0 armor, right? So they never take (converted) Stun, just tons of Physical?

There are some other options I think I've seen:
A) Keep armor as normal (or at some lesser multiplier of Force), but it's not hardened; you get do autohits.
B) ITNW is actually X+Force*Y (where Y is less than 2).
C) ITNW is a spirit-specific power/optional power, so that Earth spirit actually is the tank, while the Air one is maybe better used as a spy/caster.
D) ITNW is normal, but less than F*2 (this really only helps tone down the strong ones, though).

Well, they allready take only physical from physical attacks...
Because you know, the armor is hardend...


In general: Using the immunity to normal weapon as "autoreduction" is not a bad idea. But at most force *1.5 or spirits will be too though.
I would suggest something along the line force+2. (And possibly an optional power armor which adds another 2, for the thougher spirits. Beast, earth)

[Yerameyahu]

Again, I was *asking* about the status of stun *under* the OP's proposed change, not under the RAW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) If it's F+2, you still have any burst fire tearing them apart, and non-bursts quickly doing nothing (regardless of ammo). If they have 0 armor, you also still have AP doing nothing: APDS is worthless, but flechette is *also* a free 2 DV. F+2 (any F+X) also makes increasing Force all but worthless, so a F6 is almost no stronger than a F3.

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu

F+2 (any F+X) also makes increasing Force all but worthless, so a F6 is almost no stronger than a F3.

F3:5 Points of damage absorbtion, F6: 8 Points of damage absorbtion.
Nearly everything you say, is plain wrong.
A force 10 spirit of earth got 8 Points of damage absorbtion.
Short Burst: You need a base DV of 6 to have a chance of hurting him
Long Burst: DV 3
Full Auto: None

But the damage would still be reduced.
So a Full auto shot at said spirit with an Ultimax HMG-2 would do 6+9+Net-Hits (Lets say 3).
That means 18-8=10 Damage. He got 10 Body to soak and should end up with 7. It hurts, but he is not killed. (A force 3 spirit would be toast)

Now, how does the current system work.
Said force 6 spirit is attacked with a called shot. His armor would be 10, compared to 6+4+3 nethits. Well, thus you are doing damage.
The spirit may soak 6 damage and ends up with 7. The same amount as above...


You may give armor as an optional power, if you want them to suffer stun.

The point is, this rule helps to prevent the issue of spirits either beeing immune or toast.

And the point, that full auto is extreamly good against armor is true for anything, except hardend armor.
You can also use the called shot rules to bypass the immunity.

[Yerameyahu]

Your face is plain wrong! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Seriously though, what? The examples are all FA, and we can see that they're getting seriously hammered by even a machine pistol (5 boxes + net hits, for the F6 spirit). And, as I said, the F3 is taking only slightly more than the mighty F6 (8 boxes). It's even worse as F increases, of course, into the 'danger zone' of 7+.

I never said the damage wasn't reduced. I said it wasn't reduced enough for FA, and way too much for non-burst. So the spirits are still dying crazy fast to FA, and almost everything else is now not even hurting them.

You can *maybe* use the called shot rules to bypass immunity… if your GM was nuts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Now that it's not 'armor', I can't imagine the argument that you can 'shoot around' their innate soaking power.

… What is this supposed to mean, btw?

A force 10 spirit of earth got 8 Points of damage absorbtion.

And the point, that full auto is extreamly good against armor is true for anything, except hardend armor.

This is only a factor for things that have armor. Against humans, FA is limited in that it reduces to Stun. Against these proposed spirits, FA is unlimited. There's no more balance of base DV, AP, and burst-fire; it's all burst-fire. That's fine, if you want to fundamentally change spirits from hard targets to big squishy ones.

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu

… What is this supposed to mean, btw?

I just called the new mechanism damage absorbtion...

I never said the damage wasn't reduced. I said it wasn't reduced enough for FA, and way too much for non-burst. So the spirits are still dying crazy fast to FA, and almost everything else is now not even hurting them.

Alrgiht, I missed the second part. Thats partly true. They get immune against AP. (You may reintroduce it, however)

As it stands spirits die even faster, beeing hit with full auto, unless their armor is high enough, than they do not get a single scratch.

Lable it as armor again, but it at force*2, allow AP. Only differance: Instead of soaking every point reduces the damage by one.
Now you have stun damage, now full auto has a drawback.
Anyway: I would consider introducing an optional power "armor" (granting the spirit armor of Force*2 (Or Force+4) additional to the reduction, instead of making the reduction force*2 and letting it count as armor.

[Yerameyahu]

No, I was confused by the Force 10 Earth spirit part. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Wouldn't he have 12?

I agree that RAW is not good/better. I'm just discussing the effects of the changes.

Should sprits maybe just innately have armor (non-hardened), to allow AP to have an effect and give spirits an extra few dice to resist (and get Stun)?

[The_Vanguard]

Thanks for the input, everybody. You've given me a lot to think about.

Yerameyahu's reasoning that the immunity doesn't scale well is quite interesting. Adding something like additional armor would make the rule too complicated again, however. Well, let me run those numbers again.

A ganger with Agi 3 and Pistols 2 attacks a Force 3 water spirit with his Beretta 101T (guess he's high on something).

RAW
Immunity 6 and 2 defense hits avg. mean that he needs 5 hits at least - extremely unlikely without edge. Now, if he does manage to get them, he'll do DV7 resisted with 11 dice, hitting for about 3 damage.

Auto-hits
3 auto-hits and about 2 Body hits for damage resistance force the ganger to roll about 5 hits to cause 1 damage. 5 hits, just like above, would result in 2 damage avg.

Yerameyahu, I think you're onto something here, but I can't really wrap my head around it yet. Could you please explain this point in greater detail again?

[Irion]

No, I was confused by the Force 10 Earth spirit part. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Wouldn't he have 12?

I agree that RAW is not good/better. I'm just discussing the effects of the changes.

Should sprits maybe just innately have armor (non-hardened), to allow AP to have an effect and give spirits an extra few dice to resist (and get Stun)?

Sorry, I must have though Force 6 and write 10.
I guess there is no easy way to fix it all.
You could make it just "normal" armor, but that would really weaken spirits...
You could combine several approaches but this would make it complicated...

I guess there is no easy way.
All I wanted to say was, that this approach takes care of some issues. But sure, what has been SnS is now the Full auto burst...

[Yerameyahu]

Which point specifically? The change I proposed earlier (Hardened Armor effect of 3+F) is intended to be (a) no less simple than RAW and (b) specifically boosts the toughness of F1 and F2, while systematically reducing the toughness of F4+. (That is, Hardened Armor of 3+F means F3 stays the same; you can change that number to change the Force you're 'centering' on.) So, the result is that F1 and F2 can be defeated by heavy pistols, but *not* faceslaps, while F6 can only shrug off small arms fire (including bursts from SMGs); F6 is still being appropriately hurt by Panther, APDS, snipers, etc., and F7+ get gradually more durable. This method is not only a minor change to the RAW (minor changes being a plus to some people), it also maintains the usefulness of AP and high base DV. This is also me assuming that spirits are intended to be functional comparable to drones, meaning vehicle-grade toughness; if they intended to be more like metahuman grunts, I'd expect summoning to be a little easier?

I don't think there's anything wrong with the autohits=F in terms of *scaling*, just that the lack of hardening leaves them (to me) too vulnerable to raw DV (machine pistol bursts). The hardening seems to be crucial against that particular, widespread threat. While burst fire is indeed very dangerous to metahumans (per Irion?), at least they are theoretically splitting their damage across 2 tracks; spirits using an autohits/no-armor rule are taking all Physical (this assumes you're not using optional Grunt rules, as noted by phlapjack77).

Because I'm more interested in balance and niftiness than simplicity, I would be interested in the idea of autohits ('Absorption', per Irion; not necessarily =F, maybe F/2, F/3…) as a separate spirit power to add on top of the basic protection of (3+F). This could create special 'tank' spirits, at the opportunity cost of other cool Powers. I'm also interested in letting spirit armor vary across types, just like all their stats do (Strength, Body, etc.), so that an Earth or Beast spirit (as someone suggested) get +1, while maybe an Air gets -1… or something like that, as long as there are relative differences. The spirit types are too similar, ignoring the 'super' ones (depending on who you ask: Task, Plant, etc.).

[Irion]

@Yerameyahu
I can agree with that.
The thing I do not like at the immunity rules as it stands, is the fact that they are a zero one kind of question. DV over the damage you are fucked, DV under the damage you are saved.

So in general you say, it would be a good Idea to make spirits more "individual" and less "jack of all trades"? I can totally agree to that!
The point is, thats not a simple houserule, it would require to write the whole spirit section in the core book and big parts of it in Streetmagic.

[Glyph]

I would agree with reducing the amount of hardened armor a bit. The problem is that some mage builds can oversummon spirits at such a high Force that they become an "I win" button - nothing that a typical security force has can touch them. So there needs to either be a bit of a reduction of armor levels (while still keeping spirits tough), or more ways that mundanes can effectively fight spirits (attacks of will are usually a joke against a spirit's combat dice pools, assuming you succeed in closing in on it to begin with).

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, Irion, you'd have to go through fixing everything (adding more Weaknesses while you were at it!). But (3+F) is a tiny, easy change that significantly reduces the 'impossible' factor of spirits over F6. If you want to make spirits tougher or more fragile in a specific game, just change that number (4+F, 2+F…).