Ghouls, and how they propegate Options

[X-Kalibur]

Had it been me (and it wasn't), some of the high-end pathogen-fighting cyber, bio, and geneware probably wouldn't have been excluded, although it might not have been as effective against HMHVV as against a mundane virus. I think Bobby went a little overboard, but then, he likes it dark. Really dark. I think a little bit lighter shade of charcoal would still have been effective without making it an automatic "roll a new PC" disease. But that could just be me.

But even he admitted the way it was printed was not his intent, did he not?

<edit> Also, not to take away from Draco's big balls, but something like 70% of the population has Herpes Simplex 1 (aka orofacial herpes). In his case, all it would have taken was a kiss that involved an open sore near any mucous membrane (mouth or eyes most likely) or an open wound of his own, say he had lacerated something on his face and she did the "kiss it and make it better" routine. I apologize for the overly clinical sounding nature of that. I just hate the stigma surrounding it. It's super easy for a kid to contract from an adult in a totally innocent way.

[Yerameyahu]

I feel like just having to get the first test is too *easy*, though. If you wanted all diseases to have a 'initial Fort save', it should be a distinct, difficult value. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As for fixes I'm pretty sure that current viral infections can be fought with something like a Z-pack

I thought Z-Pak was antibiotics? Nothing related to a virus at all. But HMHVV is a special magic virus, as well! Honestly, just allow gear to help… and raise the Penetration back up.

[X-Kalibur]

I feel like just having to get the first test is too *easy*, though. If you wanted all diseases to have a 'initial Fort save', it should be a distinct, difficult value. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I thought Z-Pak was antibiotics? Nothing related to a virus at all. But HMHVV is a special magic virus, as well! Honestly, just allow gear to help… and raise the Penetration back up.

You are correct, sir. A Z-pack is Azithromycin, an antibiotic. There are no cures for viruses, all you can do is treat the symptoms and allow it to run it's course.

[Dakka Dakka]

I feel like just having to get the first test is too *easy*, though. If you wanted all diseases to have a 'initial Fort save', it should be a distinct, difficult value. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The RAW values require you to have a dice pool of 24 to succeed 50% of the time, even failing by one hit increases the "required" dice pool to 27 and so on. With the "errataed" values it is 18 and 21. Given that most countermeasures either don't work against HMHVV III or are eaten up by the disease's Penetration, this is still a very high number.

[Yerameyahu]

But, it's a *lot* easier than the actual disease, right? That was my point: it shouldn't be easier to avoid it altogether, especially when the first test is the easiest and you still have your Edge. The errata'd penetration is a measly -3, after all, and a 50% chance of the disease doing *nothing* would be far too large. If we sat down and said, 'what chance seems right for this incredibly scary disease to have *no* effect at all?', surely we'd pick something pretty small.

[Wakshaani]

Yeah, this certainly seems like something for people to sit around and factor for a while, until a common concept came out of it. Ghouls can have kids (Which, naturally, are Ghouls), so an obscenely infectious bug isn't needed to keep the population up. It should be scary, but not an utter death sentence.

[Falconer]

No Wakshaani... it just provides a good reason to shoot them on sight!

none of this hippie madness of ghoul rights which has taken over the game more recently.



Also the average is being misused here... the average on 3 dice is 1 success. But it does not happen half the time. 3 dice, each has two possibilities fail or succeed. Produces 4 distinct possibilities 0, 1, 2, or 3 successes. Odds of each are 8/12/6/1 out of 27. So you only have a 8/27 chance of not rolling at least 1. 12*1+6*2+3*1==27... 27/27==1... average roll is 1 success.

In any case, going up to 24 dice... you have a 57.6% chance of rolling at least 8 successes. 40.5% of at least 9. With 23dice.. the odds are 51.9%.. .and with 22 dice 46.0%.

[VykosDarkSoul]

But, it's a *lot* easier than the actual disease, right? That was my point: it shouldn't be easier to avoid it altogether, especially when the first test is the easiest and you still have your Edge. The errata'd penetration is a measly -3, after all, and a 50% chance of the disease doing *nothing* would be far too large. If we sat down and said, 'what chance seems right for this incredibly scary disease to have *no* effect at all?', surely we'd pick something pretty small.

See my thoughts here are, you have to make the test every time they do physical damage

and like i said, this is all just theorizing right now, may end up just goin with the errata

[Yerameyahu]

That's true, you're exposed each time… but so? That's your own fault and it's a big scary magic disease. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Don't let the zombies bite you.

I just think that surviving it *should* be amazing—especially scot-free!—and I'd want to make sure the special 'totally avoid *all* negative effects' roll was appropriately hard.

[X-Kalibur]

That's true, you're exposed each time… but so? That's your own fault and it's a big scary magic disease. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Don't let the zombies bite you.

I just think that surviving it *should* be amazing—especially scot-free!—and I'd want to make sure the special 'totally avoid *all* negative effects' roll was appropriately hard.

The main problem is that it either needs to be harder to contract it or easier to resist it. As written it's broken to hell and back.

[Dakka Dakka]

I just think that surviving it *should* be amazing—especially scot-free!—and I'd want to make sure the special 'totally avoid *all* negative effects' roll was appropriately hard.

I think a threshold starting at 8 (or 6) on an Attribute test with a maximum net dice pool modifier of 0 (or 3) is at least appropriately hard.

@Falconer: I may be off by a bit on the probability, but please show me how to build a character that gets anywhere near a dice pool of 24 vs HMHVV III, preferably someone who can do more than resist the virus.

[Krishach]

I feel the need to chime in and remind that the RAW rules for HMHVV II Ghilani Moneriviridae are even worse in RC: Speed 1 hr, Contact, Penetration -6, power 13. And " Diseases spread by contact must touch the target’s skin."

I do like the unofficial errata, but I'd like to point something out. Diseases incubation period seems to assume you have caught the invader and have to fight it off. Example: tuberculosis, which has a test every week, is by inhalation. However, like things like leprosey, it is possible to come into contact with said disease and not have it catch, even without immunization. As has been stated, there would otherwise be global outbreaks, since any sort of contact would require resistance rolls. As is stated in the description, 6 months of frequent contact has a 50% chance of taking root (note this is accurate WITHOUT protective gear). However, by current rules, inhalation would require resistance tests weekly. presumably as soon as it's penetration betters your gear.

Ghouls have peaceable contact with people, and it would be impossible for RAW populace to make those resistance rolls.

There is little information to support this directly in the books, but something similar seems plausible. Not every cell is necessarily contagious, just infected, and there is a difference.

[mister__joshua]

No Wakshaani... it just provides a good reason to shoot them on sight!

none of this hippie madness of ghoul rights which has taken over the game more recently.

I've actually been toying with the idea of making a Ghoul Right's Activist character.

Forced to live away from society he spends all of his shadow-earnings supporting ghoul rights movements, speaking at lobbies etc.
Wears a brown tweed suit and a bowler hat (just an image I had)

[Jeremiah Kraye]

I might of been mistaken on the term for z-pak, I do know that there are anti-viral medications out there, as you said they don't destroy but rather inhibit the virus itself, and I believe they are taken as a regimen similar to a z-pak, I know during a particular bad cold-sore flare-up I got something similar. Which leaves me to wonder why something hasn't come up as a controlling regimen for this disease?

As for the comment about getting it from one's grandmother, it doesn't take much... grandmother lets you use her chapstick for instance.

Curious if requesting the aid from a spirit might be useful from an in-play perspective in dealing with the magical side of the virus?

Could you imagine, yearly spirit/anti-viral treatments might work for a dual-natured disease.

[Yerameyahu]

I think a threshold starting at 8 (or 6) on an Attribute test with a maximum net dice pool modifier of 0 (or 3) is at least appropriately hard.

Again, my point isn't that this isn't hard, but that's it's way *easier* than the actual disease. Doesn't seem right.

I'm not sure what some of this discussion is about. It's *supposed* to be very scary and you're supposed to be exposed by Physical damage; everything else is just fiddling with the numbers. If you think even the errata stats are too impossible… fiddle with the numbers some more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But this is not leprosy, and presumably the 'peaceful' ghouls are not *biting* the people they contact. By the same token, people wear armor and try to avoid being bitten; so should your characters!

[Jeremiah Kraye]

I think that if the actual disease was that virulent you wouldn't see ghoul hunters existing at all... on top of that ghouls wouldn't just be a fringe society problem, they would be overpowering society. The original strength of it makes it seem like you're screwed if you get touched, it literally turns them into true blue old-school you get bite you're dead kid zombies.

Also I'm not sure I like the fact that this disease, or many diseases for that matter does not take into account the natural body or the lack there of (highly cyber'd individuals). But I suppose you have house rules for that :3

[Yerameyahu]

Right, which are the specific reasons why it was dialed down in the errata. If that's not enough, subtract 1 until you think it's right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's just not that hard. It's not like every person everywhere is exposed once a week. Ghouls are hidden, hunted, and in enclaves; and unlike many diseases, AFAIK you're not contagious until *after* you've turned. Large parts of the population have security that would stop ghouls at the gate, and so on.

You can take steps to avoid getting attacked, and to avoid those attacks scoring Physical damage (… or people are weak enough to just be killed and eaten (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ). Given the various facts, just make it work.

[StealthSigma]

Still gotta go over this with my Co-GM, but I am thinking about running it something like this (subject to change (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) )

Speed: 1 Day (10)
Vector: Injection
Penetration: -3
Power: 6
In order to infect, physical damage must be caused by a natural weapon of the ghoul, or by injections of the bodily fluids (eww). Upon initial contact a test must be made to resist, if this is succesfull, then it did not stick.

(have to look into the cyber/bio/gene ware to see if we are going to allow any of it to work, but if it does, it will probably be at a reduced value)

You do realize, that penetration is essentially what causes those things to work at a reduced value, right?

--

But, it's a *lot* easier than the actual disease, right? That was my point: it shouldn't be easier to avoid it altogether, especially when the first test is the easiest and you still have your Edge. The errata'd penetration is a measly -3, after all, and a 50% chance of the disease doing *nothing* would be far too large. If we sat down and said, 'what chance seems right for this incredibly scary disease to have *no* effect at all?', surely we'd pick something pretty small.

I think the power can be reduced to 4 or the criteria for becoming a ghoul increased and it would still cause problems for runners while still being incredibly lethal to Joe Average.

Joe Average human is 3 body and 4 edge and won't likely have any benefits beyond that.

The first 4 days he would get about 2.66 hits on average which is not close enough to meet the Power 6. If he's lucky and the first 4 days he reduces the power to zero, then he has 6 days where, assuming all three of his body score gets a hit, it would still take 12 days at best to get rid of the remaining power which means he became a ghoul.

Or, let's assume he uses 3 edge on the first three days and negates the power and wait until the last possible test to use his remaining edge, he would need to get 15 hits off of 7 dice to have a chance of survival.

--

I think a threshold starting at 8 (or 6) on an Attribute test with a maximum net dice pool modifier of 0 (or 3) is at least appropriately hard.

@Falconer: I may be off by a bit on the probability, but please show me how to build a character that gets anywhere near a dice pool of 24 vs HMHVV III, preferably someone who can do more than resist the virus.

Choose one of the following races with Exceptional Attribute (Body) (20BP) and Genetic Optimization (Body) (45,000):
Human (8 dice)
Ork (11 dice)
Dwarf (11 dice)
Elf (8 dice)
Troll (12 dice)

Add the following options:
Nephretic Screen IV (+4 Dice) (40,000)
Pathogenic Defense VI (+6 Dice) (60,000)
Resistance to Pathogens (+2 Dice) (10BP)
Suprathyroid Gland (+1 Dice) (45,000 + Restricted Gear Quality)

So you can, in theory, get 21 dice as a human or elf, 24 dice as an ork or dwarf, or 25 dice as a troll. That's before the bonus dice from a Cure Disease spell, or using edge. You've spent 35BP on positive qualities and 190,000 on the augmentations and gene therapy.

Finally, subtract 3 dice due to the penetration value. 18 dice as a human or elf, 21 dice as an ork or dwarf, or 22 dice as a troll.

I don't think such a character would meet your do more than resist a disease criteria.

[Yerameyahu]

That's good data: now we know the 'Joe Average' DP and the 'Theoretical Max' DP. Surely we can use that to decide what Power/Penetration fits? I have to go for a bit, but I'll play with it later if no one else does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Step one: decide on the % chance for Average and Max to survive (RAW).

[Dakka Dakka]

@Yerameyahu: Has the reduction in power and penetration and the change to injection vector been actually releases as an erratum? I'm not aware of that.

[StealthSigma]

That's good data: now we know the 'Joe Average' DP and the 'Theoretical Max' DP. Surely we can use that to decide what Power/Penetration fits? I have to go for a bit, but I'll play with it later if no one else does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Step one: decide on the % chance for Average and Max to survive (RAW).

This is where you run into playability over reality issues. Ultimately, the player characters are akin to people like Skipjack, Netcat, Damien Knight. They're not as great but they're probably more special than anything else other than such unique characters.

Ultimately, I think that the rules for it should be GM fiat on whether NPCs contract it and reduce the difficulty of it for PCs. The only real problem with that approach is what happens if you have ghoul players who are trying to get enemies to contract it.

[Patrick Goodman]

@Yerameyahu: Has the reduction in power and penetration and the change to injection vector been actually releases as an erratum? I'm not aware of that.

Unofficially, though it has an "I'm cool with that" from Jason after discussing it with him in emails and IMs. Why it's not been signed off on...well, that I couldn't tell you.

The link is in my sig, though, to the "unofficial" errata in question.

[Krishach]

But this is not leprosy, and presumably the 'peaceful' ghouls are not *biting* the people they contact.

I was referring to the RAW rules vector "Contact," which does not require a bite. It is very non-specific. But you did gloss over TB, which is airborne, and yet has a "catching" rate far less than it's rules would suggest. Rather, this was to point out that shaking hands with a ghoul would likely not spread the disease, or it would be everywhere, since it has no cure, treatment, or immunization. "Contact" vector does not take this into account, was my point. Neither does it specify what bodily fluids may carry, as many viral diseases are not constant in every fluid, but are specific only to some.

The GMs not using an Injection vector, as per unofficial errata, should still take note of such things, I think.

[Midas]

I suspect that most folk who get wounded by a ghoul will also end up *eaten* by said ghoul and its pals, but to prevent a ghoul-pocalypse I too would use the errata rules.

And while there may be no anti-viral *cure* to HMHVV, I don't see why a 2070's tech anti-viral cocktail whouldn't add dice to the disease resistance test. After all, 2012 tech anti-viral cocktails are being used to successfully prevent HIV infections turning into full-blown AIDS ...

[Yerameyahu]

I was referring to the RAW rules vector "Contact," which does not require a bite.

Oh, sorry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I've already moved far beyond the RAW there, because literally everyone already agreed that it was wrong… years ago. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Before there was the 'unofficial errata', we just had house rules that said essentially the same thing. So the SR4-TB rules are wrong (shock); just change them.

I suspect that most folk who get wounded by a ghoul will also end up *eaten* by said ghoul and its pals,

Yeah, that's what I was getting at earlier: not every exposure creates a new ghoul (… just a dead person), which helps to limit things. Hehe. Yes, I agree that the general anti-virals discussed should do something, which is why the disease has Penetration in the first place. I might re-raise that Penetration, though; you just have to run the numbers and decide the outcomes you want.

I also agree that deadly/permanent-effect diseases in general, in RPGs, can often be handled by GM fiat instead. People get mad when their character is killed/ruined by the dice, and it's often better for the game/story if such decisions are made at the GM/player level (as always, when appropriate, when not abused, etc.).