GM "soft balance", Using soft manipulators to keep a game fair Options

[Warlordtheft]

What is this "make sense" you speak of?

You are assuming that the sec corps have Noncon as a budget item given the above reasons, I am assuming that the penny pinchers and bean counters would take it off.

Cheep as it is, I am sure all but the straightlaced raw recruit will have it. If not provided by mother corp, by ones own funds. If enough people buy it, then the captain will put it in the standard budget just for morale purposes. You're right, the bean counters would push against it, but the rank and file would just put it under the uniform budget which they probably have to pay for anyway.

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe, StealthSigma, I dunno if it's good PR to have them keep getting KOd and/or killed with great ease, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) But, if they are just for appearances, then I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the actual guards.

[StealthSigma]

Hehe, StealthSigma, I dunno if it's good PR to have them keep getting KOd and/or killed with great ease, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) But, if they are just for appearances, then I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the actual guards.

I really see only one purpose to meatbag guards over drones and that's in the invulnerability to hackers that they have which drones lack. There's no function that a guard can perform which a drone cannot perform equally well. They might have a slightly better cognitive abilities to a drone.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* There are meatbag shadowrunners. They must be good for something.

[toturi]

Cheep as it is, I am sure all but the straightlaced raw recruit will have it. If not provided by mother corp, by ones own funds. If enough people buy it, then the captain will put it in the standard budget just for morale purposes. You're right, the bean counters would push against it, but the rank and file would just put it under the uniform budget which they probably have to pay for anyway.

It may be cheap to us as players, and even perhaps to our PCs.

But what is the average income for a sec guard? How many times is a sec guard likely to encounter a criminal through the course of his contract or even his entire career as a sec guard? What percentage of those encounters do those criminals pack weapons that non-conductivity help? How much does non-conductivity help during those encounters?

[_Pax._]

It may be cheap to us as players, and even perhaps to our PCs.

But what is the average income for a sec guard? How many times is a sec guard likely to encounter a criminal through the course of his contract or even his entire career as a sec guard? What percentage of those encounters do those criminals pack weapons that non-conductivity help? How much does non-conductivity help during those encounters?

How often does the security guard's own partners' weapons accidentally discharge?

Remember, you don't have to "go all the way" with an R6 modification, for it to be worthwhile. If you presuppose that your typical rent-a-cop wears just an Armored Vest (6/4), well that costs 600 nuyen. Adding Nonconductivity R2 costs only 400 nuyen more ... and eliminates the armor-halving of SnS. So while it may still be advantageous to the criminals to use SnS (go against 4 armor instead of 6), the rent-a-cop isn't a pushover. Or if you use an Armor Jacket (8/6), just 600 nuyen buys you Nonconductive R3 ... again, counter-balancing the "half armor" of SnS.

This isn't like plating their guns in platinum, or encrusting their badges in diamonds. It's a few hundred nuyen, to help balance the odds back to neutral.

[toturi]

Remember, you don't have to "go all the way" with an R6 modification, for it to be worthwhile. If you presuppose that your typical rent-a-cop wears just an Armored Vest (6/4), well that costs 600 nuyen. Adding Nonconductivity R2 costs only 400 nuyen more ... and eliminates the armor-halving of SnS. So while it may still be advantageous to the criminals to use SnS (go against 4 armor instead of 6), the rent-a-cop isn't a pushover. Or if you use an Armor Jacket (8/6), just 600 nuyen buys you Nonconductive R3 ... again, counter-balancing the "half armor" of SnS.

Yes, we know that. But do the people making the budget decisions? Nonconductivity may cost "only" 400 nuyen more, but it represents a 2/3 increase in costs. Therefore the guy in the suit upstairs will be asking,"Does this 60% increase give me 60% better performance?"

[_Pax._]

Yes, we know that. But do the people making the budget decisions? Nonconductivity may cost "only" 400 nuyen more, but it represents a 2/3 increase in costs. Therefore the guy in the suit upstairs will be asking,"Does this 60% increase give me 60% better performance?"

It gives you 100% better performance against an entire not-uncommon class of weapons.

Like, the very weapons your own officers are carrying, perhaps. Weapons that could be taken from them, and then turned on them. Wouldn't you like your armor to be worth bothering to put on, in that case?

[toturi]

It gives you 100% better performance against an entire not-uncommon class of weapons.

Like, the very weapons your own officers are carrying, perhaps. Weapons that could be taken from them, and then turned on them. Wouldn't you like your armor to be worth bothering to put on, in that case?

How common is that class of weapons compared to other weapons/weapon classes? Is it a class of "go to" weapons that any criminal will have? Even if such an upgrade is effective against 50% of all weapons used against your officers, is it still worth paying 66% more for it?

You have to consider how likely are those weapons turned against your own officers, without them being dead or having them having that armor rendered moot.

[_Pax._]

See, at this point, you're arguing just to argue.

You can say you won, if you like. Me, I'm bored with this.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

How common is that class of weapons compared to other weapons/weapon classes? Is it a class of "go to" weapons that any criminal will have? Even if such an upgrade is effective against 50% of all weapons used against your officers, is it still worth paying 66% more for it?

You have to consider how likely are those weapons turned against your own officers, without them being dead or having them having that armor rendered moot.

I would say tasers are the most common weapons in urban/civilized areas 2070, as they are completely unregulated, very effective, non-lethal and the cheapest of all ranged weapons.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I would say tasers are the most common weapons in urban/civilized areas 2070, as they are completely unregulated, very effective, non-lethal and the cheapest of all ranged weapons.

THIS. RIGHT. HERE. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[toturi]

I would say tasers are the most common weapons in urban/civilized areas 2070, as they are completely unregulated, very effective, non-lethal and the cheapest of all ranged weapons.

Perhaps so, so what percentage of all weapons in urban/civilized areas in 2070 are tasers? Given that if we assume that since non-conductive is so cost effective, tasers won't be quite as effective, has one of the shortest if not the shortest range of all ranged weapons and are not quite the cheapest of all ranged weapons.

[StealthSigma]

Perhaps so, so what percentage of all weapons in urban/civilized areas in 2070 are tasers? Given that if we assume that since non-conductive is so cost effective, tasers won't be quite as effective, has one of the shortest if not the shortest range of all ranged weapons and are not quite the cheapest of all ranged weapons.

The cheapest taser is 150 with no availability rating and it's 50 for 10 shots (5/rd). You can hold 4 rounds before needing to reload.

The Colt America L36 light pistol is 150 with a 4R availability and its 20 for 10 shots (2/rd). You can hold 11 rounds before needing to reload.

Tasers have the shortest static ranges. Throwing weapons can have shorter ranges... a blow gun exactly matches taser ranges if you have 5 Body.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Perhaps so, so what percentage of all weapons in urban/civilized areas in 2070 are tasers? Given that if we assume that since non-conductive is so cost effective, tasers won't be quite as effective, has one of the shortest if not the shortest range of all ranged weapons and are not quite the cheapest of all ranged weapons.

If you factor in the costs of a License for the RESTRICTED firearms, then yes, Tasers are Cheaper.

There were only 2 Firearms that I could find that are Cheaper.
One is an Exotic Weapon (Microflare Launcher, arguably not really a Firearm); 50 Nuyen.
The other is a Pistol: Streetline Special, RESTRICTED, NOT always available (though not hard to get), and requires a License; 100 Nuyen.

Compare to ALWAYS legal, not restricted in any way (so no License required), and ALWAYS available. Two Common Tasers at 150 Nuyen.

It is safe to say that Tasers are the cheapest, most available, most legal, and easiest to use "Firearm" that can be had.

[Yerameyahu]

And Stick-n-Shock, of course.

[StealthSigma]

If you factor in the costs of a License for the RESTRICTED firearms, then yes, Tasers are Cheaper.

There were only 2 Firearms that I could find that are Cheaper.
One is an Exotic Weapon (Microflare Launcher, arguably not really a Firearm); 50 Nuyen.
The other is a Pistol: Streetline Special, RESTRICTED, NOT always available (though not hard to get), and requires a License; 100 Nuyen.

Compare to ALWAYS legal, not restricted in any way (so no License required), and ALWAYS available. Two Common Tasers at 150 Nuyen.

It is safe to say that Tasers are the cheapest, most available, most legal, and easiest to use "Firearm" that can be had.

Even factoring in the cost of a license, you cannot simply declare tasers cheaper. I did quote one pistol that has an identical unit price to the cheapest taser. The incremental cost of using the weapon is 3 nuyen saved per round fired. That means that you break even after firing 34 rounds for a R1 license, 67 rounds for a R2 license, 100 rounds for a R3 license, 134 rounds for a R4 license, 167 rounds for a R5 license, and 200 rounds for a R6 license.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Even factoring in the cost of a license, you cannot simply declare tasers cheaper. I did quote one pistol that has an identical unit price to the cheapest taser. The incremental cost of using the weapon is 3 nuyen saved per round fired. That means that you break even after firing 34 rounds for a R1 license, 67 rounds for a R2 license, 100 rounds for a R3 license, 134 rounds for a R4 license, 167 rounds for a R5 license, and 200 rounds for a R6 license.

Yes, You can.
Not everyone will qualify for a license, and Tasers are legal FOR EVERYONE to own and use. Since the vast majority will not HAVE those licenses, the Taser is Cheaper.

Also... Real Licenses (for a SINner) are not rated. You either have them or you do not.

[StealthSigma]

Yes, You can.
Not everyone will qualify for a license, and Tasers are legal FOR EVERYONE to own and use. Since the vast majority will not HAVE those licenses, the Taser is Cheaper.

Also... Real Licenses (for a SINner) are not rated. You either have them or you do not.

Which is basically my point, the additional cost/overhead of having a license to own that light pistol will eventually be made up for by savings in ammo cost. Tasers are 50 nuyen for 10 rounds while regular ammunition for a pistol is 20 nuyen for 10 rounds.

[binarywraith]

Which is basically my point, the additional cost/overhead of having a license to own that light pistol will eventually be made up for by savings in ammo cost. Tasers are 50 nuyen for 10 rounds while regular ammunition for a pistol is 20 nuyen for 10 rounds.

Sure, but how may average Joes, even in the Barrens, are going to shoot often enough for ammo costs to add up?

[StealthSigma]

Sure, but how may average Joes, even in the Barrens, are going to shoot often enough for ammo costs to add up?

It depends. It depends on how much it costs for a legal license, if you're using a legal license, if you're even using a license, how many people are using that exact same weapon.

[_Pax._]

I did quote one pistol that has an identical unit price to the cheapest taser.

A pistol with an Availability number higher than 0. Which means you basically have to go looking for it - in the right plces. IOW, a gun store, or an Ares superstore, or maybe a Kong-Walmart (real Walmarts nowadays sometimes carry firearms).

The Taser? Stuffer Shack. Same for the ammo. You can buy them on almost literally every street-corner in the whole UCAS.

...

Oh, and by the by? That cheap gun you pointed out? Can fire Stick-and-Shock. Granted, that's yet another license, and yet another availability test. But it's also a damage upgrade (from 4P to 6S(e)), and goes through armor much, much better (half Impact instead of all Ballistic). That last point is not to be understated, by the by. The Armor Jacket is described as "the most popular" armor solution on the streets, and it's 8/6. So with that little light pistol you picked up so cheaply, you can either try your luck with 4P against 8 armor (and get Stun damage anyway), or jump over to 6S versus only 3 armor.

...

Yeah. SnS really is that good. And so, Nonconductive - at least enough of it to counterbalance the whole "half armor" thing - is definitely required equipment for anyone whose job entails "risk getting shot at by criminals (and/or disgruntled ex-employees)".

[Neraph]

What is this "make sense" you speak of?

You are assuming that the sec corps have Noncon as a budget item given the above reasons, I am assuming that the penny pinchers and bean counters would take it off.

Who said the corps have to buy it? Many police officers today go out and buy their own body armor separate from what is issued. The uniform is the uniform; you can add to it within a certain limit also.

EDIT: Caught up with the thread, so here:

There's also an additional +3 from a Rating 4 Tacnet, but drones cannot contribute enough sensor channels to qualify for a rating 2 Tacnet so the sniper would need 5 meatbags just to provide him with sensor channels. That would raise the dice pools to 31 and 33 for a normal shot and point blank....

Custom build their Sensors or otherwise raise their Sensor rating and you're fine with some MCT Flyspies.

It may be cheap to us as players, and even perhaps to our PCs.

But what is the average income for a sec guard? How many times is a sec guard likely to encounter a criminal through the course of his contract or even his entire career as a sec guard? What percentage of those encounters do those criminals pack weapons that non-conductivity help? How much does non-conductivity help during those encounters?

Commissioned or Non-Commissioned? It just so happens that I am a RL security guard. Non-Commissioned (no firearm) tend to make about 1,400/month (roughly around 10/hour), whereas Commissioned can make upwards of 2,400/month (roughly 15/hour) and well into the 4k/month (25/hour) for higher-quality guards.

[toturi]

Commissioned or Non-Commissioned? It just so happens that I am a RL security guard. Non-Commissioned (no firearm) tend to make about 1,400/month (roughly around 10/hour), whereas Commissioned can make upwards of 2,400/month (roughly 15/hour) and well into the 4k/month (25/hour) for higher-quality guards.

Allow me to clarify - what would be the average income for each type of security forces (shown as various types of Grunts) in Shadowrun?

Corp sec should possibly have a different payscale from Lone Star which is in turn different from Red Samurai.

[Warlordtheft]

I'd go with the following monthly incomes as a rough guide based on lifestyles:

1. Basic grunt (low lifestyle): 1,000 to 1,500 nuyen.
2. Sgt/LT (low lifestyle+more): 1,500 to 2,000 nuyen.
3. Captain (middle):5,000 to 6,000 nuyen + bonuses.
4. Special forces (middle to high): 5,000 to 10,000+ bonuses
5. Special forces officer (mid to high): 8,000 to 20,000 + bonuses

Triple the cost for mages, double the cost for specialists (hackers/riggers).