Can you stunbolt ?, NRBH Options

[IKerensky]

I am wondering somethings about the Mana spells. They require direct line of sight to the target but :

1- Could you Stunbolt a guy in a car behind tinted windows ?
2- Could you Stunbolt a guy behind a standard glass window ?
3- If you are astrally perceiving could you Stunbolt a guy behind a standard glass window ?
4- Could you target a ghouls in a dark sewer tunnel without external light source ?
5- Can a mage astral perceiving have a line of sight if he wore a helmet with transparent visor down or even simple glasses ?

My answers are

1- No
2- Yes
3- No.
4- No, or perhaps yes but with huge visibility modifiers.
5- No.

Am I right ?

[Neraph]

1) If he can see him, yes. It would have to be polarized glass ("one-way mirror") for no.
2) Yes. Glass does not block LoS.
3) No. The shadow from the glass would block LoS. (as far as I know - I could be wrong on this)
4) Yes and no. Not with normal sight (if conditions are dark), but yes with Assensing, for example.
5) Inclined to agree with you, but also remember these things: A) Assensing is a purely psychic effect, which is why blind mages can Assense, and B) personal gear very rarely is taken into account for various things, like explosions and AoE spells (technically all your gear would have to save versus that Powerball also, or that grenade explosion).

[Dr.Rockso]

I think you should be able to target through visors, with #5. Just like you can see someone's aura if they are in full combat armor, I think your own equipment should be 'within' your aura and that you should be able see beyond it.

[SpellBinder]

My own 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

1: If the tint doesn't completely block your LOS, yes (not all tint is "Limousine Black")
2: Yes
3: No, with the same reasoning Neraph posted
4: Likely a Perception test first, with all relevant modifiers; absolutely if you're astrally perceiving
5: Yes. Otherwise it could be argued that astral perception is blocked by contact lenses, helmets, goggles, etc. I'm with Dr.Rockso on this.

[Wakshaani]

1: No (The car has an astral 'shell' that you can't target through, despite the LOS. This is why, for instance, you can't put up a mana barrier (Allows physical things to pass, but not living people) to 'squish' drivers. (Car goes through, manawall stops the bodies, squish).

2: No (The building is another astral 'shell' ... you need to be inside of it to target someone inside of it.)

3: No, astral spells can't target someone in the physical world. (If they were also astral, still no, as the building is still a factor)

4: Not unless you can see via natural darkvision, thermographic, etc. Note that an Area spell can't effect invisible people, either! Can't see, can't hit with magic.

5: Yes, as a helmet or glasses doesn't have an astral 'shell' (It should, but) ... as such, no issue with true LOS. Note that if you're using night vision glasses, your LOS is done, as the digital signal futzes it up. Mages in goggles face a similar problem. As a general rule, if you didn't pay karma for it, you can't see through it, but exceptions were made forever ago for glass visors/lenses and glass tubes (The old fiber-optic networks in buildings that a mage could look through. These seem to have quietly vanished, however, which is good, as they ignore the 'astral shell' rule too much IMHO.

[Starmage21]

Regular tinted glass is not completely opaque or translucent enough to block you from being able to target a spell. It is a penalty to the sorcery roll as a vision modifier, but not a complete negation.

[Yerameyahu]

5 is certainly 'yes'. Anything else is a) insane, b) assuming that 'astral sense' is coming from your *eyes*. I wonder if I can dig up the huge thread about that question from 2 years ago… (or just the smaller one from a couple months back). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Wakshaani, #1 presumably refers to '100% dark' windows, again using normal vision (so it's indeed a 'no'); it also bears noting that a mana barrier has no such effect as you describe on 'living' things regardless (non-astral, non-Dual-Natured). #2 refers to using normal vision, and it absolutely works. Your answer for #3 is right, but your reasoning is wrong: the spell is not astral, the perception is. It fails because astral LOS is blocked by the astrally-opaque glass. Yes, Mage Sight fiber systems still exist, and still make no sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (But, just to be clear, they do not work for *astral* sense.)

As a side note, let's stick with the (correct) terminology Neraph used: physical dead objects have astral *shadows*, not 'shells'.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

1: No (The car has an astral 'shell' that you can't target through, despite the LOS. This is why, for instance, you can't put up a mana barrier (Allows physical things to pass, but not living people) to 'squish' drivers. (Car goes through, manawall stops the bodies, squish).

2: No (The building is another astral 'shell' ... you need to be inside of it to target someone inside of it.)

3: No, astral spells can't target someone in the physical world. (If they were also astral, still no, as the building is still a factor)

4: Not unless you can see via natural darkvision, thermographic, etc. Note that an Area spell can't effect invisible people, either! Can't see, can't hit with magic.

5: Yes, as a helmet or glasses doesn't have an astral 'shell' (It should, but) ... as such, no issue with true LOS. Note that if you're using night vision glasses, your LOS is done, as the digital signal futzes it up. Mages in goggles face a similar problem. As a general rule, if you didn't pay karma for it, you can't see through it, but exceptions were made forever ago for glass visors/lenses and glass tubes (The old fiber-optic networks in buildings that a mage could look through. These seem to have quietly vanished, however, which is good, as they ignore the 'astral shell' rule too much IMHO.

2 - Actually, You can target a guy behind a Standard Glass Window, assuming you were not astrally perceiving. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
4 - Slight Nitpick. An Indirect Area Spell can indeed damage individuals that cannot be perceived.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Halinn]

Could someone find me a rules quote on glass being astrally dark? I haven't been able to find it myself.

[Yerameyahu]

All shadows (objects) are opaque to astral sense.

Determining cover works the same way on the astral plane as it does in the physical world (see pp. 140–141, SR4). Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting. Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world (like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows.

Sometimes people misinterpret this last sentence to be saying that transparent/mirrored objects impair-not-prevent visibility, but there are no listed rules for that. Instead, it makes perfect sense as saying, 'even things that provide LOS on physical are merely normal opaque shadows on the astral; they aren't special'.

[_Pax._]

I am wondering somethings about the Mana spells. They require direct line of sight to the target but :

1- Could you Stunbolt a guy in a car behind tinted windows ?
2- Could you Stunbolt a guy behind a standard glass window ?
3- If you are astrally perceiving could you Stunbolt a guy behind a standard glass window ?
4- Could you target a ghouls in a dark sewer tunnel without external light source ?
5- Can a mage astral perceiving have a line of sight if he wore a helmet with transparent visor down or even simple glasses ?

1 - depends HOW tinted, and, what the light is like on the target's side of the glass. If you can't see them, you can't lob (non-Area) spells at them. So in a darkened car, at night, behind max-tinted windows? Nope.
2 - generally, yes.
3 - No. Glass is 100% opaque on the Astral Plane.
4 - Depends on your eyes. If you have eyes that can see in that lighting condition, yes. If you don't, no.
5 - Visor, I'd say no. Glasses, I'd say yes .... because it's simpler in-play. I wear glasses, and I can shrug them far enough down my nose to peer OVER them, for example.

Am I right ?

Mostly.

For #4, you've forgotten the possibility of Cybereyes, or bioware Troll's Eyes. Or even just having Low-Light and the Eye Light system (that's an internal light source, hahaha).

[Krishach]

I agree with your original understandings as well

though Tymeaus Jalynsfein, he did specifically state "mana" spells, of which indirect spells are not.

Something to add: Vehicles in shadowrun

Tinted Windows
As a standard feature, passenger vehicles in 2070 feature windows that can be polarized, both for privacy and also to defeat line of sight for magic-based attacks. Th is means that for a magician to target a line-of-sight spell against a character inside a vehicle with a polarized window, the window needs to be down or broken.

EVERY vehicle can have limo tinting, which you can see out of, but defeats inbound sight. Question is whether they are using it.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Though Tymeaus Jalynsfein, he did specifically state "mana" spells, of which indirect spells are not.

Not from what I saw, but no worries. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wakshaani]

Shadow! I blanked on the dang word.

*sigh*

[Falconer]

OP:
1. Maybe, yes with a visibility penalty... 1-way mirrored/polarized no.
2. Yes - normal vision sees through
3. No - glass's astral shadow is not transparent when you switch perception.
4. Maybe -type dependent. Assensing (visibility bonus) or Thermographic (slight penalty) - Yes, I'd say no for normal vision, low-light maybe (large penalty unless we're talking absolute pitch black).
5. Yes - (just as you can target someone wearing full body armor, you can see out of full body armor). Though I've seen some GM's fuzz this some.

1: No (The car has an astral 'shell' that you can't target through, despite the LOS. This is why, for instance, you can't put up a mana barrier (Allows physical things to pass, but not living people) to 'squish' drivers. (Car goes through, manawall stops the bodies, squish).

2: No (The building is another astral 'shell' ... you need to be inside of it to target someone inside of it.)

3: No, astral spells can't target someone in the physical world. (If they were also astral, still no, as the building is still a factor)

Exactly what version of shadowrun are you playing Wakshaani, and what are you smoking?! There is no astral shell anywhere, only astral shadow. And that only applies to assensing in that non-living items becomes a smokey haze you can pass through but not see through.

Mana barriers haven't done that since first edition!!!! Second edition fixed that old abuse by adding that tweak you mentioned (it wouldn't stop living beings inside a closed vehicle). Third edition got rid of the tomfoolery altogether.

Physical structures have never had a shell. (which sounds like a house rule to prevent the abuse of mana barriers).


That said, I once did selectively knock out a ton of bug spirits out of mix on a train in SR4, by raising a force 18 mana barrier (spirit zapper to be specific)... (edge plus a lot of pain in drain). Then proceeded to watch each and every one of them get shoved through it by the train. (take that damn high force realistic form + masking!!!). But in SR4 it would only be effective against dual-natured forms.

[Neraph]

That said, I once did selectively knock out a ton of bug spirits out of mix on a train in SR4, by raising a force 18 mana barrier (spirit zapper to be specific)... (edge plus a lot of pain in drain). Then proceeded to watch each and every one of them get shoved through it by the train. (take that damn high force realistic form + masking!!!). But in SR4 it would only be effective against dual-natured forms.

Which Inhabited spirits still are.

[TheOOB]

My 2 nuyen

1-Yes, but there would be a penalty based on how tinted it is, just like say smoke, or any other effect that makes it hard to see someone.
2-You need LoS, LoE(Line of Effect), is irrelevant for spell targeting.
3-No for two reasons. First nonliving objects are opaque in the astral plane, and you can't target a physical being while you are on the astral plan
4-Depends on your plane. In the material plane no, you need to be able to see them. No light, no sight, no targeting. On the astral plane you could see them fine, as their astral form would be plenty bright.
5-A creatures aura typically extends past their clothing, which is why wearing clothing doesn't make someone harder to see in astral. Also remember that you don't use your eyes to astrally perceive, which means anything inhibiting your eyes is irrelevant

[Yerameyahu]

Again, #3 says 'astral perceiving'; the perception is astral, not the person.