Cybereyes and Linguasofts Options

[IridiosDZ]

Have a new player making a character and want to make sure I get a couple of rules correct.

First, it makes sense that getting cybereyes removes any natural vision mods (lowlight and thermographic), but I cannot find or remember any written reference to that.

Secondly. Linguasofts can only be accessed with DNI (such as sim module or datajack). If the l-softs are stored on storage media and connected through a datajack, will that be enough? Or do they require a commlink and have the softs count against the processor limit? Which is my preferred option.

[Yerameyahu]

That's so obvious that there might not be a rule for it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Alas.

Basically any device has chipjacks, so any DNI at all. They would never count against processor, they're not programs.

[Wakshaani]

Have a new player making a character and want to make sure I get a couple of rules correct.

First, it makes sense that getting cybereyes removes any natural vision mods (lowlight and thermographic), but I cannot find or remember any written reference to that.

Secondly. Linguasofts can only be accessed with DNI (such as sim module or datajack). If the l-softs are stored on storage media and connected through a datajack, will that be enough? Or do they require a commlink and have the softs count against the processor limit? Which is my preferred option.

#1 is pretty much a given. Take out the organics, teh sockets are dry. (ew)

#2 is all about how linguasofts work, which is real-time translation (Minus a bit of lag) which requires the processing power of a sim module or a datajack (Or skillwires, a personal fave) ... remember that they aren't just allowing you to understand what's being said, but allowing you to say things back in that language which you never knew without the 'soft. You can run them in a commlink, which allows you to listen to it translate for you, and then you can speak into it and it'll translate the words back out, but that's pretty retro and will get you looks.

If you're dirt poor, of course, you can also buy Datasofts of a language, which is a good old fashioned phrasebook. Scroll around, find what you want, and do the best you can to say it out loud, or turn it around, tap the screen, and hope the other person can read.

[Yerameyahu]

It's a little unclear. It either says it requires any DNI, or it specifically requires one of (sim module, datajack), and nothing else. The latter is probably wrong, but it doesn't matter too much: you can add a sim module to basically anything (most likely, your trodes).

[Krishach]

1) I KNOW I've read this somewhere, and it was specifically mentioned, but it does not appear anywhere I can find in SR4a.

2) DNI only requires the software to be attached, by book wording. A neural interface can be done with a datajack, a sim module, or an implanted commlink is the wording.

That being said, I'd check with your GM to see if he doesn't connect the logical dots and require a commlink or at least some type of System for the software to run on. Otherwise it's like plugging your keyboard and monitor directly into your hard drive: it's missing some critical parts still. Our table requires a System to interface the software off data storage.

[Yerameyahu]

It might be an interesting house rule to treat linguasofts as programs of some kind, yes. They're a special case, because activesofts already require their own special hardware, while mapsofts and datasofts are really just data. Only linguasofts would require actual 'running' with simsense and the whole shebang.

[Falconer]

No you actually have to slot, load, and RUN the linguasoft/knowsoft. As such the knowsoft is subject to your system limits just like any other program. They are not just data. Nowhere does it state that they are just data. They include both a program interface and a database. They need to be loaded into the persona (if a commlink) and run to function just the same as any other software. Or you can get them loaded on a chip and plugged/loaded into your datajack (since it's periphal node functions include running knowsofts).

As a peripheral node... the cybereyes cannot do that... they can only act as data storage and only run programs specifically written for their peripheral processor (see unwired). And if you try and cluster the peripheral nodes together... I vote you go blind, your cyberarms stop working, etc... because the custom tweaked special OS running each device is now running a clusterfuck OS instead. Since the weakest nodes of the clusters are peripharals with admin-only access with no penalty to hacking with exploit... the resulting node has the same limit.


In any case, a 2070's datajack is both a chipjack&datajack now. The datajack specifically allows you to run these as part of it's periphal device code. Another option is an internal commlink. (trodes plus sim of course for externalizing it). Again you're going to need a commlink with enough response/system to run the knowsoft. It does count against the process limit.


Seriously from the sound of it the guy is trying to make a face... an internal commlink is gangbusters for this kind of stuff... there's a lot of useful software he can run internally on a good internal commlink. (empathy, lie detection, face recognition, linguasofts, knowsofts...). Those are very good reasons to actually get a commlink, and not to allow people to try and make peripheral nodes do things they shouldn't.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't see where the rules say you run a linguasoft as a Program. The rules do specifically state you do not need a commlink ('datajack or sim module'). You're also just making up the idea of a datajack having a 'run soft' function, which still has nothing to do with Programs (e.g., no Matrix Attribute limits).

This is fine as house rule/fluff, but make sure you remember that's what it is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Personally, they should simply be made Programs like everything else; problem solved.

I'm not saying it makes any sense to run a chip of any kind in a cybereye, but that's just because it's stupid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) … Did anyone even suggest this in the first place? There's a completely separate cybereye question in this thread, after all.

[Falconer]

No, it's not a house rule Yera. You're the one making up house rules.

The rules are explicit, they're PROGRAMS. As programs they follow all the normal rules for programs and nodes. Nowhere is this listed as an exception. A sim-module does not run programs... it only interfaces between the commlink and your simsense.

There are actually a few old threads here on dumpshock where this was hashed out if you search.

P330. SR4a
"A skillsoft program is a programmed/recorded skill—as in, a person’s knowledge and memory (including “muscle memory”). When used in conjunction with the proper hardware or cyberware, ...."

Activesofts: must be accessed with a skillwires system. (the skillwires system deals with the rules for how many you can load at once and use; it is a dedicated peripheral node specialized to run these).
Knowsofts: must be accessed with a DNI (datajack or trodes+Sim)
Linguasofts: same.

In each case, the software is running on something. In each case, the program is run somewhere and accessed through DNI. This is 100% in line with prior editions as well where you'd have to slot them individually.. Typically they actually where datachips... which were inserted into a chipjack of limited slot capacity. Later editions got rid of the chipjack and said to just ues the datajack.

Yera, with your house rule... stop and think. What are the limits to how many programs/knowsofts you can have up and running at once. Do you always have access to everything and anything? Or do you occassionally need to unload one to load another? Linguasofts are commonly referred to in these terms such as loading up the right one when you need it in the fluff and in the mechanics. Not simply owning it and having it up all the time with no penalties.

[Yerameyahu]

Softs are explicitly not Matrix Programs. You're being silly. Softs are not limited by their hardware in any way, except as noted under their specific listing (e.g., skillwires ratings). Skillwires systems are not commlinks, and they don't run Programs. Nothing about their limitations resembles a commlink (or a peripheral) running Programs. There's nothing wrong with changing that. Try not to be so defensive. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I never said 'softs are not run'. I said they're not Programs (== Matrix Programs). When I said datajacks don't have a special 'run soft' function, I was responding to your argument that softs are Programs, but datajacks get a special dispensation. They don't, cuz they're not. Datajacks can run softs because the rules specifically say so, unrelated to Programs in any way.

There are no limits on the number you can run at once, no. That's not my fault, I didn't write the RAW. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Once upon a time, chipjacks had preset limits (similar to the way skillwires do now). Like I said, I'm happy to impose limitations, but you're claiming it's in the RAW.

Did you figure out why you're even talking about running chips on cybereyes, btw?

[Falconer]

Because the character wants to simply say... this program is stored on the eyes. I don't need anything more than this. Which is wrong. Only a specially custom written knowsoft made for that peripheral device could be run on it (unwired). I only come down like this when someone is giving bad information and contradicting RAW/RAI and saying otherwise. I have zero problems with house rules... just make sure they're clearly labeled as such. In this case, I assure you I'm NOT giving house rules.


The problem is you're confusing and making an artificial house rule distinction here. There are matrix programs. But those are a subset of programs which specifically only deal with interacting with the matrix. Some things like mapsofts clearly say they're software (they even include an interface software!), and they connect to the matrix for updates. All programs need to be loaded into a device and run.

Empathy software is not a 'matrix program' yet it is loaded and run the same as them. Same goes for all kinds of other programs. You have unlimted storage in SR4 (bad rule IMO), but you don't have unlimited processor limit.

Skillsofts are loaded into skillwires and run... because their peripheral node is designed to do so.

Datajacks can accept limited simsense (which is what knowsofts are) and run them directly... that's how BTL chips operate!

Knowsofts are no different than BTL's when they're chipped.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

A Datajack is a Device. Therefore it has an unspecified/unlimited amount of storage. Load the Linguasoft into the Datajkack Storage, and then use them with the Datajack interface. Viola. No Program Load, and access to all your Linguasofts. Simple.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

TJ: I agree... mostly you're only not catching the bits in unwired as regards peripheral nodes. And in SR4a as regards their device rating and proc limits.

A datajack is a peripheral node in it's own right. It still needs to load the program from storage and run it under it's processor limit. As a peripheral node, running a program designed to run on it's type of peripheral the software is not subject to system limit on rating! Depending on the grade of the datajack... you can only load so many items at once before the response drops to 0 and it stops working.

Standard grade is DeviceRating3... which means you could slot up to 8 at once. (proc limit 3... response drops to zero when you run 9 at once).
Alpha... DR4: 15
Beta... DR5: 24
Delta... DR6: 35 (DR*DR-1)


This is why I don't see any problem with the RAW. A standard grade datajack can run 8 knowsoft/linguasofts at once out of however many it has loaded. (and the essence cost is a pittance at .1essence and $500 for the cyber IIRC!!). Alpha nearly doubles that increasing as the square-1.

[bannockburn]

I think you misunderstood, Falconer.
The OP asks two different things, not connected. His player does not want to store his linguasoft in his eyes, but on an external medium (read: chip), which he can either slot into a datajack or into a commlink.

[Falconer]

Duh... mea magna culpa... Yes I went about it the wrong way and completely misunderstood the question.

Yes he can store the data on anything... he just needs to load it into something capable of running it like a datajack within it's processing limit.

[Yerameyahu]

Falconer, I can never be sure if you're being deliberate or not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You (should) know full well that Sensor Software has Program-style rules. Softs explicitly *don't*. Program (capital P) means Matrix Program, and that's where the rules are.

Skillsofts are loaded into skillwires and run... because their peripheral node is designed to do so.

Nope. Skillsofts run on skillwires because they're not Programs running (meaning, using the Program-running rules) on any node, and have a totally separate set of rules.

I'm glad you brought it up: BTLs are not Programs either, and they also have zero hardware limitations (System, Response, etc.). So, you're totally right: they're just like softs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Are you saying, for example, that running a Rating 6 linguasoft is not possible on a Rating 3 commlink? Absurd, per RAW.

And again, I'm more than fine with treating all of these things like Programs, giving them all the relevant limitations, etc. I think we should. I strongly think we should. But the rules don't say so; they say the opposite. But far be it from me to make you 'come down' on my dangerously erroneous RAW information (… when did RAI enter into this?). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Falconer]

Yera:
Read the rules for peripheral nodes in unwired. A program cannot be run on a peripheral node unless it's specifically written to be run on that peripheral node. Any such programs are not constrained by the system limit of the peripheral node they're run on. I'm not making up any of this. This is all right there in the RAW. (p48 Unwired)

"They are only able to run a single persona and are only able to run programs they are designed to use."
"...their system rating is not limited by response rating"

Activesofts are software, loaded into skillwires (which again as a device can store as many as you like, but it can only RUN a special limit due to it's special rules governing them). The limit on the software is again special because they have special rules.

Sim Modules & Datajacks are both peripheral nodes. BTL's & knowsofts are both software specifically written to be run on either type of peripheral node. So not subject to a system limit on rating response. However, there is still a processor limit based on the device rating, limiting how many can be run at once.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not arguing any of that, because it's irrelevant. They're not Programs, and they're not being run at all in a node sense. Skillwires have special, totally-unrelated-to-anything rules because activesofts are special non-Programs.

You did miss my question before, though: if peripherals can run any rating softs because of dispensation, does that mean my commlink can't run a higher rating soft? Cuz that would suck, comparatively. Oh well. I guess that's hand-waved by the commlink 'having' a sim module, which gets the special dispensation.

Again, I would prefer things work as you think they do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

It wouldn't need to. You need either a datajack... or a sim module to use them anyhow. A link on it's own isn't enough. The system rating of a peripheral node is not limited by response... system still limits the programs though... but they come rating 1-6 so system 6 isn't a problem.

So if they were on a commlink. You'd load them from the commlink into the attached simmodule or datajack anyhow.

I only object to this notion that they're not software, and don't need to be 'slotted' to use the old parlance. And that you can have infinitely many of them up at once if you own them all. (it's like pokemon!). They're listed as software, not as data. They include an expert system software to help organize the whole thing.


Activesofts ARE software. Completely with programming options and the like!
Unwired p192-3, Skillware...
"Linguasofts are real-time translation systems, intercepting activity in the language centers of the brain and inserting new signals that allow a user to understand, read, and speak...." If it's only pure data... pure data cannot process. To process you need a program.

Program Options p114.
see "Simsense Programs" which are what we're talking about...
SR4a... p259
"Simsense Programs" under BTLs
SR4a... p330... again simsense program
p330 again... "A skillsoft PROGRAM is a..."

Since you keep saying they're not software programs the book seems to disagree with you quite a bit.

[Yerameyahu]

I never once said that they weren't software, nor that they're just data, and I specifically said I don't like their infinite nature. But it's not my fault. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) They're listed as software, but not Programs. They're listed in opposition to Matrix Programs, which have a suite of rules for their use.

Not that it matters, because you've already pointed out that they're effectively infinite: no one needs more knowledges and languages than maybe a dozen anyway. Incidentally, how do you get a higher rating sim module to run more softs on? Oh, you can't, only klugey cyberware device rating rules allow that? Maybe the GM will let you use the Matrix Attribute upgrade rules on your sim module. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

Easy device response upgrade... same as anything else.

10k or 12k forget which for a response 6 chip... which would go up to 6*6-1==35 at once before response drops to zero.

[Yerameyahu]

Actually, this part has always confused me: is the sim module supposed to be part of the commlink, or not? If not, does that mean it's physically separate, or that your commlink contains a whole distinct device, with its own (potentially higher) rating? Wacky. Not that it's relevant, I just always wondered. It seems like the sim module is supposed to be a mod for the commlink, but it's also not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[_Pax._]

First, it makes sense that getting cybereyes removes any natural vision mods (lowlight and thermographic), but I cannot find or remember any written reference to that.

Um.

If you get full cybereyes, you get your biological eyes scooped out with a melon baller. The "machinery" that produced your Low-Light or Thermographic vision is simply GONE.

Think about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Secondly. Linguasofts can only be accessed with DNI (such as sim module or datajack). If the l-softs are stored on storage media and connected through a datajack, will that be enough? Or do they require a commlink and have the softs count against the processor limit? Which is my preferred option.

You can run the linguasoft on your commlink (and a sim module); you then need a way to get the signals/effects directly into your brain. A datajack, or a set of Trodes, would be sufficient for that.

[_Pax._]

Actually, this part has always confused me: is the sim module supposed to be part of the commlink, or not?

It can be built-in. Or it can be an external unit. Or it can be an implant ion your skull.

Think of a hard drive, and a laptop. The HDD might be built into your laptop. Or it might be an external drive you connect with a USB cable.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I don't think anyone's having trouble with the concept of 'losing your meat eyes'. We're just kind of bemused that we can't find where it actually says 'you lose natural vision modes'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) SR4 is (sometimes) a ruleset where such things are explicit, lest Neraph or toturi notice. Obviously, we know that you can't replace your eyes and keep (natural) thermo.

--
Right. So if it's built-in, does it have a separate device rating? It's just kind of odd. Also, if the sim module is the one and only unit that interprets simsense (which makes sense), why can a datajack feed you simsense off a card? More odd. Otherwise, it means that a datajack has an integrated sim module, right? Is that one the same rating, or what? This all seems like unnecessary complication in the system.