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IridiosDZ
Have a new player making a character and want to make sure I get a couple of rules correct.

First, it makes sense that getting cybereyes removes any natural vision mods (lowlight and thermographic), but I cannot find or remember any written reference to that.

Secondly. Linguasofts can only be accessed with DNI (such as sim module or datajack). If the l-softs are stored on storage media and connected through a datajack, will that be enough? Or do they require a commlink and have the softs count against the processor limit? Which is my preferred option.
Yerameyahu
That's so obvious that there might not be a rule for it. wink.gif Alas.

Basically any device has chipjacks, so any DNI at all. They would never count against processor, they're not programs.
Wakshaani
QUOTE (IridiosDZ @ Jul 20 2012, 09:53 PM) *
Have a new player making a character and want to make sure I get a couple of rules correct.

First, it makes sense that getting cybereyes removes any natural vision mods (lowlight and thermographic), but I cannot find or remember any written reference to that.

Secondly. Linguasofts can only be accessed with DNI (such as sim module or datajack). If the l-softs are stored on storage media and connected through a datajack, will that be enough? Or do they require a commlink and have the softs count against the processor limit? Which is my preferred option.


#1 is pretty much a given. Take out the organics, teh sockets are dry. (ew)

#2 is all about how linguasofts work, which is real-time translation (Minus a bit of lag) which requires the processing power of a sim module or a datajack (Or skillwires, a personal fave) ... remember that they aren't just allowing you to understand what's being said, but allowing you to say things back in that language which you never knew without the 'soft. You can run them in a commlink, which allows you to listen to it translate for you, and then you can speak into it and it'll translate the words back out, but that's pretty retro and will get you looks.

If you're dirt poor, of course, you can also buy Datasofts of a language, which is a good old fashioned phrasebook. Scroll around, find what you want, and do the best you can to say it out loud, or turn it around, tap the screen, and hope the other person can read.
Yerameyahu
It's a little unclear. It either says it requires any DNI, or it specifically requires one of (sim module, datajack), and nothing else. The latter is probably wrong, but it doesn't matter too much: you can add a sim module to basically anything (most likely, your trodes).
Krishach
1) I KNOW I've read this somewhere, and it was specifically mentioned, but it does not appear anywhere I can find in SR4a.

2) DNI only requires the software to be attached, by book wording. A neural interface can be done with a datajack, a sim module, or an implanted commlink is the wording.

That being said, I'd check with your GM to see if he doesn't connect the logical dots and require a commlink or at least some type of System for the software to run on. Otherwise it's like plugging your keyboard and monitor directly into your hard drive: it's missing some critical parts still. Our table requires a System to interface the software off data storage.
Yerameyahu
It might be an interesting house rule to treat linguasofts as programs of some kind, yes. They're a special case, because activesofts already require their own special hardware, while mapsofts and datasofts are really just data. Only linguasofts would require actual 'running' with simsense and the whole shebang.
Falconer
No you actually have to slot, load, and RUN the linguasoft/knowsoft. As such the knowsoft is subject to your system limits just like any other program. They are not just data. Nowhere does it state that they are just data. They include both a program interface and a database. They need to be loaded into the persona (if a commlink) and run to function just the same as any other software. Or you can get them loaded on a chip and plugged/loaded into your datajack (since it's periphal node functions include running knowsofts).

As a peripheral node... the cybereyes cannot do that... they can only act as data storage and only run programs specifically written for their peripheral processor (see unwired). And if you try and cluster the peripheral nodes together... I vote you go blind, your cyberarms stop working, etc... because the custom tweaked special OS running each device is now running a clusterfuck OS instead. Since the weakest nodes of the clusters are peripharals with admin-only access with no penalty to hacking with exploit... the resulting node has the same limit.


In any case, a 2070's datajack is both a chipjack&datajack now. The datajack specifically allows you to run these as part of it's periphal device code. Another option is an internal commlink. (trodes plus sim of course for externalizing it). Again you're going to need a commlink with enough response/system to run the knowsoft. It does count against the process limit.


Seriously from the sound of it the guy is trying to make a face... an internal commlink is gangbusters for this kind of stuff... there's a lot of useful software he can run internally on a good internal commlink. (empathy, lie detection, face recognition, linguasofts, knowsofts...). Those are very good reasons to actually get a commlink, and not to allow people to try and make peripheral nodes do things they shouldn't.
Yerameyahu
I don't see where the rules say you run a linguasoft as a Program. The rules do specifically state you do not need a commlink ('datajack or sim module'). You're also just making up the idea of a datajack having a 'run soft' function, which still has nothing to do with Programs (e.g., no Matrix Attribute limits).

This is fine as house rule/fluff, but make sure you remember that's what it is. smile.gif Personally, they should simply be made Programs like everything else; problem solved.

I'm not saying it makes any sense to run a chip of any kind in a cybereye, but that's just because it's stupid. biggrin.gif … Did anyone even suggest this in the first place? There's a completely separate cybereye question in this thread, after all.
Falconer
No, it's not a house rule Yera. You're the one making up house rules.

The rules are explicit, they're PROGRAMS. As programs they follow all the normal rules for programs and nodes. Nowhere is this listed as an exception. A sim-module does not run programs... it only interfaces between the commlink and your simsense.

There are actually a few old threads here on dumpshock where this was hashed out if you search.

P330. SR4a
"A skillsoft program is a programmed/recorded skill—as in, a person’s knowledge and memory (including “muscle memory”). When used in conjunction with the proper hardware or cyberware, ...."

Activesofts: must be accessed with a skillwires system. (the skillwires system deals with the rules for how many you can load at once and use; it is a dedicated peripheral node specialized to run these).
Knowsofts: must be accessed with a DNI (datajack or trodes+Sim)
Linguasofts: same.

In each case, the software is running on something. In each case, the program is run somewhere and accessed through DNI. This is 100% in line with prior editions as well where you'd have to slot them individually.. Typically they actually where datachips... which were inserted into a chipjack of limited slot capacity. Later editions got rid of the chipjack and said to just ues the datajack.

Yera, with your house rule... stop and think. What are the limits to how many programs/knowsofts you can have up and running at once. Do you always have access to everything and anything? Or do you occassionally need to unload one to load another? Linguasofts are commonly referred to in these terms such as loading up the right one when you need it in the fluff and in the mechanics. Not simply owning it and having it up all the time with no penalties.
Yerameyahu
Softs are explicitly not Matrix Programs. You're being silly. Softs are not limited by their hardware in any way, except as noted under their specific listing (e.g., skillwires ratings). Skillwires systems are not commlinks, and they don't run Programs. Nothing about their limitations resembles a commlink (or a peripheral) running Programs. There's nothing wrong with changing that. Try not to be so defensive. smile.gif

I never said 'softs are not run'. I said they're not Programs (== Matrix Programs). When I said datajacks don't have a special 'run soft' function, I was responding to your argument that softs are Programs, but datajacks get a special dispensation. They don't, cuz they're not. Datajacks can run softs because the rules specifically say so, unrelated to Programs in any way.

There are no limits on the number you can run at once, no. That's not my fault, I didn't write the RAW. smile.gif Once upon a time, chipjacks had preset limits (similar to the way skillwires do now). Like I said, I'm happy to impose limitations, but you're claiming it's in the RAW.

Did you figure out why you're even talking about running chips on cybereyes, btw?
Falconer
Because the character wants to simply say... this program is stored on the eyes. I don't need anything more than this. Which is wrong. Only a specially custom written knowsoft made for that peripheral device could be run on it (unwired). I only come down like this when someone is giving bad information and contradicting RAW/RAI and saying otherwise. I have zero problems with house rules... just make sure they're clearly labeled as such. In this case, I assure you I'm NOT giving house rules.


The problem is you're confusing and making an artificial house rule distinction here. There are matrix programs. But those are a subset of programs which specifically only deal with interacting with the matrix. Some things like mapsofts clearly say they're software (they even include an interface software!), and they connect to the matrix for updates. All programs need to be loaded into a device and run.

Empathy software is not a 'matrix program' yet it is loaded and run the same as them. Same goes for all kinds of other programs. You have unlimted storage in SR4 (bad rule IMO), but you don't have unlimited processor limit.

Skillsofts are loaded into skillwires and run... because their peripheral node is designed to do so.

Datajacks can accept limited simsense (which is what knowsofts are) and run them directly... that's how BTL chips operate!

Knowsofts are no different than BTL's when they're chipped.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
A Datajack is a Device. Therefore it has an unspecified/unlimited amount of storage. Load the Linguasoft into the Datajkack Storage, and then use them with the Datajack interface. Viola. No Program Load, and access to all your Linguasofts. Simple.

smile.gif
Falconer
TJ: I agree... mostly you're only not catching the bits in unwired as regards peripheral nodes. And in SR4a as regards their device rating and proc limits.

A datajack is a peripheral node in it's own right. It still needs to load the program from storage and run it under it's processor limit. As a peripheral node, running a program designed to run on it's type of peripheral the software is not subject to system limit on rating! Depending on the grade of the datajack... you can only load so many items at once before the response drops to 0 and it stops working.

Standard grade is DeviceRating3... which means you could slot up to 8 at once. (proc limit 3... response drops to zero when you run 9 at once).
Alpha... DR4: 15
Beta... DR5: 24
Delta... DR6: 35 (DR*DR-1)


This is why I don't see any problem with the RAW. A standard grade datajack can run 8 knowsoft/linguasofts at once out of however many it has loaded. (and the essence cost is a pittance at .1essence and $500 for the cyber IIRC!!). Alpha nearly doubles that increasing as the square-1.
bannockburn
I think you misunderstood, Falconer.
The OP asks two different things, not connected. His player does not want to store his linguasoft in his eyes, but on an external medium (read: chip), which he can either slot into a datajack or into a commlink.
Falconer
Duh... mea magna culpa... Yes I went about it the wrong way and completely misunderstood the question.

Yes he can store the data on anything... he just needs to load it into something capable of running it like a datajack within it's processing limit.
Yerameyahu
Falconer, I can never be sure if you're being deliberate or not. smile.gif You (should) know full well that Sensor Software has Program-style rules. Softs explicitly *don't*. Program (capital P) means Matrix Program, and that's where the rules are.
QUOTE
Skillsofts are loaded into skillwires and run... because their peripheral node is designed to do so.
Nope. Skillsofts run on skillwires because they're not Programs running (meaning, using the Program-running rules) on any node, and have a totally separate set of rules.

I'm glad you brought it up: BTLs are not Programs either, and they also have zero hardware limitations (System, Response, etc.). So, you're totally right: they're just like softs. wink.gif Are you saying, for example, that running a Rating 6 linguasoft is not possible on a Rating 3 commlink? Absurd, per RAW.

And again, I'm more than fine with treating all of these things like Programs, giving them all the relevant limitations, etc. I think we should. I strongly think we should. But the rules don't say so; they say the opposite. But far be it from me to make you 'come down' on my dangerously erroneous RAW information (… when did RAI enter into this?). biggrin.gif
Falconer
Yera:
Read the rules for peripheral nodes in unwired. A program cannot be run on a peripheral node unless it's specifically written to be run on that peripheral node. Any such programs are not constrained by the system limit of the peripheral node they're run on. I'm not making up any of this. This is all right there in the RAW. (p48 Unwired)

"They are only able to run a single persona and are only able to run programs they are designed to use."
"...their system rating is not limited by response rating"

Activesofts are software, loaded into skillwires (which again as a device can store as many as you like, but it can only RUN a special limit due to it's special rules governing them). The limit on the software is again special because they have special rules.

Sim Modules & Datajacks are both peripheral nodes. BTL's & knowsofts are both software specifically written to be run on either type of peripheral node. So not subject to a system limit on rating response. However, there is still a processor limit based on the device rating, limiting how many can be run at once.
Yerameyahu
I'm not arguing any of that, because it's irrelevant. They're not Programs, and they're not being run at all in a node sense. Skillwires have special, totally-unrelated-to-anything rules because activesofts are special non-Programs.

You did miss my question before, though: if peripherals can run any rating softs because of dispensation, does that mean my commlink can't run a higher rating soft? Cuz that would suck, comparatively. Oh well. I guess that's hand-waved by the commlink 'having' a sim module, which gets the special dispensation.

Again, I would prefer things work as you think they do. smile.gif
Falconer
It wouldn't need to. You need either a datajack... or a sim module to use them anyhow. A link on it's own isn't enough. The system rating of a peripheral node is not limited by response... system still limits the programs though... but they come rating 1-6 so system 6 isn't a problem.

So if they were on a commlink. You'd load them from the commlink into the attached simmodule or datajack anyhow.

I only object to this notion that they're not software, and don't need to be 'slotted' to use the old parlance. And that you can have infinitely many of them up at once if you own them all. (it's like pokemon!). They're listed as software, not as data. They include an expert system software to help organize the whole thing.


Activesofts ARE software. Completely with programming options and the like!
Unwired p192-3, Skillware...
"Linguasofts are real-time translation systems, intercepting activity in the language centers of the brain and inserting new signals that allow a user to understand, read, and speak...." If it's only pure data... pure data cannot process. To process you need a program.

Program Options p114.
see "Simsense Programs" which are what we're talking about...
SR4a... p259
"Simsense Programs" under BTLs
SR4a... p330... again simsense program
p330 again... "A skillsoft PROGRAM is a..."

Since you keep saying they're not software programs the book seems to disagree with you quite a bit.
Yerameyahu
I never once said that they weren't software, nor that they're just data, and I specifically said I don't like their infinite nature. But it's not my fault. smile.gif They're listed as software, but not Programs. They're listed in opposition to Matrix Programs, which have a suite of rules for their use.

Not that it matters, because you've already pointed out that they're effectively infinite: no one needs more knowledges and languages than maybe a dozen anyway. Incidentally, how do you get a higher rating sim module to run more softs on? Oh, you can't, only klugey cyberware device rating rules allow that? Maybe the GM will let you use the Matrix Attribute upgrade rules on your sim module. smile.gif
Falconer
Easy device response upgrade... same as anything else.

10k or 12k forget which for a response 6 chip... which would go up to 6*6-1==35 at once before response drops to zero.

Yerameyahu
Actually, this part has always confused me: is the sim module supposed to be part of the commlink, or not? If not, does that mean it's physically separate, or that your commlink contains a whole distinct device, with its own (potentially higher) rating? Wacky. Not that it's relevant, I just always wondered. It seems like the sim module is supposed to be a mod for the commlink, but it's also not. smile.gif
_Pax._
QUOTE (IridiosDZ @ Jul 20 2012, 10:53 PM) *
First, it makes sense that getting cybereyes removes any natural vision mods (lowlight and thermographic), but I cannot find or remember any written reference to that.

Um.

If you get full cybereyes, you get your biological eyes scooped out with a melon baller. The "machinery" that produced your Low-Light or Thermographic vision is simply GONE.

Think about it. smile.gif

QUOTE
Secondly. Linguasofts can only be accessed with DNI (such as sim module or datajack). If the l-softs are stored on storage media and connected through a datajack, will that be enough? Or do they require a commlink and have the softs count against the processor limit? Which is my preferred option.


You can run the linguasoft on your commlink (and a sim module); you then need a way to get the signals/effects directly into your brain. A datajack, or a set of Trodes, would be sufficient for that.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 22 2012, 03:03 PM) *
Actually, this part has always confused me: is the sim module supposed to be part of the commlink, or not?

It can be built-in. Or it can be an external unit. Or it can be an implant ion your skull.

Think of a hard drive, and a laptop. The HDD might be built into your laptop. Or it might be an external drive you connect with a USB cable.

smile.gif
Yerameyahu
I don't think anyone's having trouble with the concept of 'losing your meat eyes'. We're just kind of bemused that we can't find where it actually says 'you lose natural vision modes'. smile.gif SR4 is (sometimes) a ruleset where such things are explicit, lest Neraph or toturi notice. Obviously, we know that you can't replace your eyes and keep (natural) thermo.

--
Right. So if it's built-in, does it have a separate device rating? It's just kind of odd. Also, if the sim module is the one and only unit that interprets simsense (which makes sense), why can a datajack feed you simsense off a card? More odd. Otherwise, it means that a datajack has an integrated sim module, right? Is that one the same rating, or what? This all seems like unnecessary complication in the system.
_Pax._
smile.gif

Somewhat related, a reasonable houserule would be that the technological system corresponding to your natural vision mode, does not cost capacity/essence when installed in Cybereyes - the idea being, there's less interpretation/translation required because the subjects optical nerve, and brain, are already "wired" for that sort of data.
Yerameyahu
I wonder. Or is the tech version just a totally different kind of data (simsense) that happens to do an equivalent thing? After all, nothing costs essence when installed in cybereyes… so who cares? biggrin.gif Capacity, on the other hand, is based on actually installing physical stuff, so you'd have to say that the physical thermo electronics somehow don't take up space.
Inu
As far as DNI goes, I thought simsense module was only required for VR -- that DNI was available just with a commlink and trodes. But people here are saying you need either a simsense module to use knowsofts, unless you have a datajack or implanted commlink?
Yerameyahu
Trodes *is* DNI (as is a datajack or an implant commlink). Simsense is… well, simsense: a type of electronic (neural, sensory) input, required for VR, also used for AR, and required for simsense software (active, know, and linguasofts). Every commlink should already have a sim module built right in, that's just a totally standard feature. It'd be like selling a phone without an audio jack.
_Pax._
No, it's not already built-in; that's why the book lists a price for a simsense module. Some people - the implication in Unwired is, particularly young kids (under 13-ish) - don't use simsense, not even "just" for AR. They get their AR feeds through glasses with an image link, and they never go full VR (aside from playing the latest simsense title in a theater, or on the home unit).

Si it's not so much "buying a phone without an audio jack", it's more like "buying a phone that doesn't have a touch screen", or, "getting a phone contract that doesn't have texting".
Yerameyahu
I said *should* have it built in. smile.gif Your examples are equivalent: a sim module is a crucial piece of functionality for any commlink. No one cares what children in 2070 do.
Falconer
Yes, but you don't need a sim-module with a commlink. It can run standalone. They're two seperate pieces of equipment.. .not that people don't normally build the one into the other nowadays. Just like Pax states.

Better way to think of it... sim-modules is like a portable DVD player. It plays movies/simsense directly into your brain through trodes or through a datajack. It can play fun stuff on it's own or display it off your commlink if attached.



As for the wierdness Inu... yes. Knowsofts are an off-shoot of simsense but aren't simsense. Normally in order to experience simsense you need the sim module (not even a commlink, just the sim module) plus either trodes or a datajack. Somehow these get away with only a portion of the ASIST tech is my understanding.

Knowsofts are special in that the rules allow them to use either:
A: a datajack (or if truly old school a chipjack), just slot the chip right into it.. (or commlink of that's where it's stored)
B. trodes + simsense module. (not trodes alone).

See p259 SR4a... "BTL chip;s come in two playback formats. "Dreamdeck chips" require an old-fashioned simsense deck... " (basically a portable DVD player)... "The second format.... These more complex chips contain all the necessary electronics so a user merely needs to slot the chip directly into an old-fashioned chipjack or datajack (no simdeck required)"
Yerameyahu
I'm saying you do need it, because simsense is awesome, and there's almost no reason to have a commlink without it. I just think it's odd that the sim module even exists as a standalone, because a commlink is *also* a critical piece of equipment. Just like those portable DVD players, an actual computer with that function built in is vastly better. All that aside, though, my question was: is a sim module *in* a commlink a separate device, allowing the magic of 'peripherals ignore Rating', or not?

… Knowsofts are simsense. That's why I said it's weird that it's a datajack *or* a sim module, instead of everything requiring a sim module period.

BTLs are totally different, containing their own sim modules. They're still using a (special built in) sim module. Which is dumb, because everyone should have a commlink with a sim module, trodes, and digital downloads.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jul 22 2012, 06:28 PM) *
Yes, but you don't need a sim-module with a commlink. It can run standalone.

Gonna have to ask for a rules citation on this one. And I'm 99.99% certain you won't be able to provide one ... because in the Core Book, the Sim Module is a commlink accessory.

QUOTE
Better way to think of it... sim-modules is like a portable DVD player.

I believe you're thinking of a simdeck. Which is a different piece of equipment altogether.
Falconer
Pax:

Page 328... text trumps tables.
Sim Module is NOT listed as a Accessory, it's listed as it's own piece of kit right next to the the commlink. Accessories are their own section immediately following.


Unwired Page 187.
"On the most basic level, all that is necessary to play back an ASIST file is a sim module (p226, SR4A)."

It then goes on to mention that they're common options with commlinks and that HIGHER END playback devices called simdecks are also made. Sim Module == portable DVD player which you commonly attach to your commlink. SimDeck == Home theatre... they do the same thing it's a matter of portability and capability.

So there's your 0.01% certainty.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jul 22 2012, 09:25 PM) *
Pax:

Page 328... text trumps tables.
Sim Module is NOT listed as a Accessory, it's listed as it's own piece of kit right next to the the commlink. Accessories are their own section immediately following.

You mean, text where they put the description under one heading, trumps a table where they put the price under a different heading? Even though both text and table are clearly the same thing?

Obvious layout error is obvious.

Now try to find me a citation that explicitly says "all commlinks come with sim modules built in". I won't be holding my breath.

...

In fact, your next statement directly contradicts your claim that sim modules are standard for all commlinks:

QUOTE
It then goes on to mention that they're common options with commlinks [...]

Common, not universal. Options, not standard. Hmmmmm, I wonder what that could possibly mean.


QUOTE
So there's your 0.01% certainty.

Not seeing it.
Falconer
Because you're making up a requirement which isn't there Pax and being willfully blind.

All that is required to play back is a Sim Module. You don't need a Sim Module + Commlink. It says you need a sim module PERIOD. (emphasis required)


And it's been well established in the past. Rules text and layout trumps tables. Also well established in the past has been that you can get sim module/decks of assorted quality ranging from small portable up to home theatre grade. They are their own piece of equipment which is attached to a commlink. Just as you wouldn't say that a satellite link is built into the commlink. It's a seperate piece of gear you use with the commlink. In fact, you could plug it into a drone or any other piece of equipment instead!

If they could be built into a commlink... there would be no need for sim module cyberware.. you could buy the commlink with it built in... but you cannot. You need to buy the sim module as a second piece of cyber.


Also page 328 under "accessories"
"Typically used with commlinks, these accessories are compatible WITH ANY ELECTRONIC DEVICE."
Note, they do not REQUIRE A COMMLINK... they're commonly used with.
Nothing stops you from using a sim module and trodes on their own if you have some way to load the simsense file into it.
Yerameyahu
But they totally should be built into commlinks, because dongles are stupid and every commlink needs one anyway. wink.gif I had a Sony Ericsson phone once that had a special adapter cord just to hook up headphones. Just because something is realistically stupid doesn't mean it's not stupid.

Seriously though, sim module is in the book under the big heading of Commlinks. That's enough for me. smile.gif
Falconer
It makes sense to me Yera... In the past simdecks were pretty beafy hardware in their own right. I just popped open SR3 for reference... the cheapest simdeck was $200. It could only handle ASIST formats and monoView... which makes sense it's only capable of the simplest playback option. Even the $1000 simdeck in unwired is the size of a laptop. I can easily see requiring two cell-phone sized items if you want simsense & a commlink.


If we go with costs roughly halved in that timeframe, the next step up was $2500. And top of the line was $75000.

If they could pack a stripped down standalone simdeck for $200 in SR3 timeframe... why would a $250 one in SR4 require the comm to function? You know what else is the size of a laptop in SR4... a Nexus... so that reflects some beefy hardware! That's why to me sim module is to commlink as simdeck is to nexus.



SR4a also doesn't include simdecks... even though they've been standard in SR forever. I always just went with the simsense module is a low-end simdeck that you plug your commlink into. Just like you plug your X-box into your TV. Now it could be read that unwired adds the simdecks.... and now modules need commlinks. The fluff and rules all through SR4a mentions simdecks... but never once includes them in the equipment list as seperate from the sim module. (search through the PDF and you'll find simdeck and sim module all over the place in the text).


Also, if people could just slip it into a commlink. Then there would be no need for the sim module cyberware. But you need to buy that along with an implanted commlink... they don't get them both at once. That's a big deal because that's a significant essence/capacity cost to add the sim module in addition to an internal commlink.
Yerameyahu
I don't know how big a sim module is. I don't recall them telling us. I do know that SR4 is all simsense, all the time, and wireless, so there's no good reason not to bundle the items. It would explain why commlinks are so big to begin with (apparently much bigger than a cell phone). smile.gif This is more like plugging your Xbox into a separate digital A/V amp/mixer box, and *then* to the TV (… in this case, your brain)… except we're talking about portable gear that everyone is using all the time. But again, I was saying things 'should' be this way, not that they are. :/

I don't buy the 'otherwise why is there a sim module cyberware' argument, though, because implanted versions of gear are inherently useless. biggrin.gif
_Pax._
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jul 22 2012, 10:36 PM) *
Because you're ...

... not arguing what you think I'm arguing.

I haven't said "you have to have a commlink to use a sim module to run knowsofts etc".

I have said, "you need a sim module to use a commlink to run knowsofts, etc".

See the gigantic difference?

*sigh*





QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 22 2012, 10:43 PM) *
But they totally should be built into commlinks,

They can be, but they're not always present. Some few people might simply have no use for VR via their commlink - if they want to run some simense porn or whatever, they do it at home, on their simdeck.

If a player wants to say "I want my sim module to be built into my commlink", then you know what my response is? "Sure, it costs [1] capacity of the 4 available, and the same number of nuyen; knock yourself out."

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 22 2012, 11:26 PM) *
I don't buy the 'otherwise why is there a sim module cyberware' argument, though, because implanted versions of gear are inherently useless. biggrin.gif

Can you imagine the warrant needed to dig a sim module out of someone's brain, just to find out IF it's been rewired for Hot sim? (Assuming the suspect has a non-criminal SIN, of course. Otherwise, who needs a warrant? Just grab a kitchen cleaver and have at!)
_Pax._
(double post)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jul 22 2012, 08:18 PM) *
It makes sense to me Yera... In the past simdecks were pretty beafy hardware in their own right. I just popped open SR3 for reference... the cheapest simdeck was $200. It could only handle ASIST formats and monoView... which makes sense it's only capable of the simplest playback option. Even the $1000 simdeck in unwired is the size of a laptop. I can easily see requiring two cell-phone sized items if you want simsense & a commlink.

If we go with costs roughly halved in that timeframe, the next step up was $2500. And top of the line was $75000.

If they could pack a stripped down standalone simdeck for $200 in SR3 timeframe... why would a $250 one in SR4 require the comm to function? You know what else is the size of a laptop in SR4... a Nexus... so that reflects some beefy hardware! That's why to me sim module is to commlink as simdeck is to nexus.

SR4a also doesn't include simdecks... even though they've been standard in SR forever. I always just went with the simsense module is a low-end simdeck that you plug your commlink into. Just like you plug your X-box into your TV. Now it could be read that unwired adds the simdecks.... and now modules need commlinks. The fluff and rules all through SR4a mentions simdecks... but never once includes them in the equipment list as seperate from the sim module. (search through the PDF and you'll find simdeck and sim module all over the place in the text).


SR4 DOES have a Simdeck. It is in Unwired. You could not argue that it is Available. It is EXPLICITELY Available. Unwired, Page 199. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
Pax, Falconer is saying the rules say they *cannot* be built into commlinks, though. I'm saying, whether or not that's true, they obviously *should* be. smile.gif People who have no need for simsense are luddites who don't matter, and no one wants to carry a dongle or—god forbid—a whole separate pass-thru box. On the plus side, everyone's always begging for them to bring back cyberdecks… biggrin.gif
_Pax._
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 23 2012, 10:05 AM) *
Pax, Falconer is saying the rules say they *cannot* be built into commlinks, though. I'm saying, whether or not that's true, they obviously *should* be. smile.gif People who have no need for simsense are luddites who don't matter, and no one wants to carry a dongle or—god forbid—a whole separate pass-thru box. On the plus side, everyone's always begging for them to bring back cyberdecks… biggrin.gif


Oh, I agree with you somewhat - it should be possible to build a sim module into a commlink. I'd charge [1] Capacity for it, is all. I just don't think that they should always be standard equipment.

Basically: did you get the Novatech Airwave 4V (with sim module built in), or the Novatech Airwave 4XL (the "extra-light" model) ...?
forgarn
I am just throwing this out there:

QUOTE (SR4a, pg. 328)
Sim Module: The sim module is an interface device that controls the simsense experience. It translates computer signals (simsense data) into neural signals, allowing the user to directly experience simsense programs, augmented and virtual reality (Virtual Reality, p. 220). A sim module must be accessed via trodes or a direct neural interface (datajack, implanted commlink, etc).


So I see a sim module to be a separate piece of gear that either plugs into your datajack or you plug your trodes into it (unless it is implanted in which case it plugs into the implanted commlink as shown below)

QUOTE
A simsense module and a direct neural interface are required to access full VR. Implanted sim-modules can also be bought as add-ons for simrigs and implanted commlinks.


And on pg 328 the simrig description states that is incorporates a sim module.

So, IMHO (for what that is worth), since Unwired, pg. 187 states that all you need to play and ASIST file is a sim module, and SR4a, pg. 328 states that you must access a sim module via trodes or DNI (of some type) then I see it as a separate component (maybe not real big, but definitely separate).

As for building-it into a commlink, I would have to agree with Pax and say that it should be allowed. I however would require that the commlink be a custom build-it-yourself type to be able to get that functionality since the pre-built ones do not come with it standard (but I am a big fan of the build it yourself ones anyway). And yes it would cost 1 capacity.
Yerameyahu
Except apparently a linguasoft can be used directly from a datajack, no sim module involved. (This seems like just an error.)

A simrig is supposedly just 'special trodes', so I wonder if that means there's a separate 'box' like Falconer suggests, or what. It seems weird that it includes a sim module… and can have one bought as an add-on?
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE ("AUGMENTATION @ p.48")
Shiawase Executive Suite Line Cyberware suite:
o) Shiawase-Vector Sigma II headware commlink (using the same stats as a Fairlight Caliban commlink, see p. 319, SR4) with integrated sim-module
o) ATC 3318 Pearl image link retinal modification
o) other stuff
Falconer
NiL_FisK_Urd:
Now calculate the essence cost. I told you they don't let you get the sim module for free as cyberware even if it is supposedly built-in.

In order to produce 0.74 alpha (70%), 0.63 beta (60%) cyberware suite essence costs. That means the starting cost for ala carte basic grade is 1.05 essence.

Now the math... attention co-processor (0.3), Datajack (0.1), Imagelink (0.1), Math SPU (0.15) == 0.65 before commlink. Well a commlink is only 0.2 essence (0.85 total)... the sim module is NOT actually built in but installed seperately it's own independent 0.2 essence cost.



QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 23 2012, 09:18 AM) *
SR4 DOES have a Simdeck. It is in Unwired. You could not argue that it is Available. It is EXPLICITELY Available. Unwired, Page 199. smile.gif


Did you read my full post for context. I said until unwired was published. So that's many years that we had simdecks mentioned all over but the only prices in the SR4a book for low-end sim modules. (so I always just assumed the sim module was a low-end simdeck; while the one they added in unwired strikes me as much nicer home theater model).



This is just me though... building it into the link in the first place should result in a physically much larger commlink. Smash two items of equal size together you end up with something twice the size afterwards. I don't see a problem with having it built-in off the shelf (except as above, as a dodge to avoid paying essence if implanted; but even there obviously despite the fluff saying it's built-in, by RAW they paid for the sim module seperately costs seperately).

But with everything wireless in SR4a it really doesn't make much difference... the comm talks via the PAN to the simsense module stuffed in some pocket somewhere, which talks to the trode net via the PAN, no wires needed. Also if dealing with cheap throwaway commlinks... or multiple commlinks... the external module works out better since you can plug any of them into it via pan or cable. And it keeps the disposables cheaper.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jul 23 2012, 03:17 PM) *
Did you read my full post for context. I said until unwired was published. So that's many years that we had simdecks mentioned all over but the only prices in the SR4a book for low-end sim modules. (so I always just assumed the sim module was a low-end simdeck; while the one they added in unwired strikes me as much nicer home theater model).


I did... I read that as "Argued" rather than "Read," hence my reply. Herp Derp. Basic Reading Failure.
No Worries. smile.gif
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