Cybereyes and Linguasofts Options

[Yerameyahu]

So… all simsense is equally good. I don't understand how a simdeck could be a 'home theater' simsense unit. Is this a case of gold-plated Monster HDMI cables?

[Udoshi]

So… all simsense is equally good. I don't understand how a simdeck could be a 'home theater' simsense unit. Is this a case of gold-plated Monster HDMI cables?

I think I brought this up the last time the question came up - since Simdecks are made for editing, then it should confer the Superior Tools bonus when used in doing so.

Though I suppose it has great big bass units for your brain, too.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So… all simsense is equally good. I don't understand how a simdeck could be a 'home theater' simsense unit. Is this a case of gold-plated Monster HDMI cables?

Traditionally, a SIMDECK allowed Multi-POV Feeds, while a Sim Module only allows a Single POV. *shrug*

[Yerameyahu]

Could be, Udoshi. Nothing about 'home theater' says editing to me, so that's a different thing.

Ha, TJ, you mean that DVD feature that no one ever used ever? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I guess that's another possibility. At this point, though, we're just talking about fluff and previous edition stuff, right?

[Falconer]

Yeah, it just comes down to fluff. You can buy bigger better simdecks by spending more.

It basically comes down to how realistic is the simsense supposed to be. Is it the grainy black and white TV... or the color HDTV. Also the simdecks can have more than one user at the same time. The small portable units are supposed to be lower quality.


In the older editions they'd have single POV, multi-POV, and different formats... Fancy way of saying this film will let you experience it as the protagonist only, but with the better gear... you can switch between multiple roles. They also had multiple formats... the simplest was the ASIST format, then the highest end stuff could handle raw simsense format. It was too much detail IMO... but at the same time the lack of storage in SR4 is a problem. While there might have been cameras all over the place even in earlier editions... they didn't have unlimited storage.


That's where some of the SR2050 stuff is starting to piss me off. I've been trying to work out how to make the matrix actually work with his changes. But I must be missing something or this must have never been properly playtested. Canray's changes to 'simplify' memory and storage seems to have broken it all. There were a lot of other things with unintended consequences. So he divided everything by 5 to 'simplify' but the same amount of data in terms of video and the like still takes the same amount of space! If Memory serves it was something like 1Mp per second for single feed ASIST, and 3Mp for raw simsense data. So you have a deck with 1000 storage... that's only a few minutes of raw video/trideo.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah. SR4 just threw all that complexity away: simsense is one thing only, a sim module of any kind runs it (hot if necessary/for fun), all DNI is equal (jack, implant, or trodes). Honestly, I'm pretty okay with that simplicity. Tracking things like storage, bandwidth, and battery life isn't fun. The GM should make it clear that they're only 'effectively' unlimited, and 'clever' abuse isn't okay, and that's the end of it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So. Whatever the rules say, I feel like the sim module should be available as a (pretty small) standalone unit, or as an internal modification for any commlink; a sim module should be required for any simsense (contrary to the line that says 'datajack OR sim module'). Its only purpose should be translating simsense to DNI signals (not playing chips). Simsense software should be run on a commlink and output *through* a sim module, and subject to normal commlink program rules; or, on a simdeck. None of this peripheral nonsense. Self-contained BTL chips are an exception.

[Krishach]

just to try to reconnect to the original topic, the opening lines give the implication of requiring the program to follow program rules.

A skillsoft program is a programmed/recorded skill—as in, a person’s knowledge and memory (including “muscle memory”). When used in
conjunction with the proper hardware or cyberware, skillsofts allow users to know and do things they never otherwise learned.

However, there is no explicit requirement of a software being loaded on a System. Instead, it is implicit.

Without any further book quotes, anything that follows is our interpretation of this. The implication is certainly there though; as I said, my group considers skillsofts as programs requiring a System in addition to the extra hardware. Though simrig vs simdeck on this subject is not precisely relevant: it would work fine with either.

[Yerameyahu]

That's a pretty fluffy line. The book also says this, under Datachips and Software: "Matrix Programs: Typical Matrix Programs include common use user utilities, hacking suites, agents and IC. Rules for these can be found on pp. 232–234." Whereas softs say things like this: "Linguasofts must be accessed with a direct neural link (either a sim module or datajack)." On 232-234, we have the basic Program rules, while linguasofts (etc.) only mention 'use a DNI'.

This, for example, doesn't make any sense to me:

as I said, my group considers skillsofts as programs requiring a System in addition to the extra hardware.

What does that even mean? The rules for activesofts are very clear and conflict with this. Are you referring to knowsofts and linguasofts only?

[Krishach]

This, for example, doesn't make any sense to me:What does that even mean? The rules for activesofts are very clear and conflict with this. Are you referring to knowsofts and linguasofts only?

A skillsoft program is a programmed/recorded skill—as in, a person’s knowledge and memory (including “muscle memory”). When used in conjunction with the proper hardware or cyberware

Activesofts must be accessed with a skillwire system (p. 342); the rating of the activesoft is limited by the skillwire system’s rating.

I am confused how you think this contradicts activesoft rules, which require you access the info with a skillwire. Like a DNI, it never says anything firm about running the program, or what you run it on or store it on. Just that you also need a skillwire to access the activesoft. Not a skillwire to "run" it. See below for precise book wording for running programs.

That's a pretty fluffy line.

that is why I used the word implicit. Yours is also quite fluffy though: "Includes" is not a limiting factor, and the word "typical" means this gives no hard info at all: the line excludes nothing.

It is implied that this program needs to follow program rules. However, I was VERY specific: IMPLIED is not the same as a firm rule. Not sure why you are countering this: it NEVER says you must run the program on a System and I've not said otherwise; it just says a skillsoft is a program, and the programs are as follows.

In order to use a program, it must be running. A running program is executed by the device on which your persona is running and belongs to your persona; only you may use the program. The System rating of the device limits the rating of the program. A program operates at its own rating or the System of the device, whichever is lower.

It is implied that one follows the other, but never explicitly stated. Therefore, you can make an argument one way or the other. However, in my opinion, with the above quotes, you would need to find a contradicting implication in absence of an overt rule. Otherwise, the above follows pretty clearly,

[Yerameyahu]

I don't care about implicit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You're either saying something works one way, or the other. I can't imagine why you'd find 'countering' that position to be an odd thing, when I don't agree.

The point is the the rating of the skillwire system isn't necessarily its Device Rating (Matrix stats). Neither does the 'capacity' of skillwires bear any resemblance to the node rules. They're simply not related. If you're saying a skillwires system requires you to run the skillsofts on commlink as programs, that would be a major change. Not an impossible one, but a big difference.

As I said, the p232 rules are for 'Matrix Programs' per SR4A (quoted), while the linguasoft/knowsoft section says nothing about such rules. If you keep reading on p232+, it lists all the programs that use those rules: common use, hacking, etc. Not simsense, esp. not activesofts. 'Matrix Programs' are clearly a category in opposition to simsense programs, which is not at all 'fluffy'.

Again (maybe the 6th time?), I'm fine with treating everything as an honest-to-god 'matrix' program, must be run on a node, subject to all limits, everything. I think we *should* do that. I just don't think the RAW says that.

[Krishach]

Actually, the rules are for "programs." That is the heading, AND the wording in the section. If it is for Matrix Programs, please show me the specific line that says "Matrix Programs" and not just "programs." Their proximity in the book is irrelevant.


don't forget, though, "common," "typical," and "includes" are not limiting or exclusive rules. This falls under the "This pen is red, are all pens red?" situation. The things listed under "Matrix Programs" is right next to Tutorsofts and Mapsofts, both of which are called "programs" under their heading as well.

The quotes I gave are quite specific, though: skillsofts are a program in their entry. Programs follow the rules listed on pg 232, and are called "programs," not "Matrix programs."

Programs would then encompass Matrix Programs, Skillsofts, Tutorsofts, and Mapsofts, which are ALL labeled as "programs" in their own entry. I can quote all these lines if it is helpful. I do not see any written lines classifying the rules for "Matrix Programs." The grouping of Matrix Programs are irrelevant to the larger group of "programs."

[Yerameyahu]

I didn't say they weren't programs. I said they weren't 'Programs', which are subject to the p232 general matrix/node rules. (ARE Programs are programs too, but they don't even have ratings, and I sure wouldn't use up processor for them.) I've said this exact thing before in this thread. In fact, all of this is stuff I've already been over with Falconer. If you already read it and don't agree… then you've already read it and don't agree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The text clearly separates the various categories, and the Matrix Programs category is the only one which refers to the p232 rules. Matching that, the p232+ rules only mention the specific subcategories listed under that Matrix Program entry. Matrix Programs -> p232, p232 -> Matrix Programs. The rules in that section are not for 'anything that happens to be a program'. I know the heading is confusing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) However, this handwaving about 'typical' is not relevant… unless you're saying that sentence in 'Matrix Programs' includes softs within that 'typical' bit. If so, why do they have separate, equal categories right next to it? (It's not like there aren't actual candidates for atypical Matrix Programs, like malware.)

Instead, softs have their own separate rules. Activesofts run on skillwires, subject to unique rating/capacity rules. The others apparently run on a sim module or datajack. No, this isn't good rules, but since when is SR4 good rules? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Krishach]

p232 -> Matrix Programs.

Show me please. This is what I am arguing: the PROGRAMS heading on page 232 never mentions the phrase Matrix Programs at all. It also has no higher heading and is in no other category it falls under. It is in higher blue print, just like every other complete section in "THE WIRELESS WORLD."

It is, simply, PROGRAMS. There is no line that says it applies to Matrix Programs alone. This argument is about pg 232.

[Yerameyahu]

First, please read the very first sentence in that section: "In order to interact with the Matrix, you need to use programs." (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) There's also a relevant table at the bottom, but I'm not relying on that as an argument. Incidentally, you're right: this chapter is 'The Wireless World', and it's all about the matrix. Response and System are Matrix Attributes. Commlinks and peripherals are Matrix devices, under the blue heading of Networking.

The section you're referring to only refers to Common Use, etc. ('Matrix Programs'). It says, 'Matrix stuff: this is how these programs work, and now I'll list them: Common Use, Hacking, and so on'. Neither, as I've said a few times, does any other kind of program refer you to this section, which begins, middles, and ends with Matrix stuff. So. Matrix Programs refers us to p232, and p232 specifically talks about the matrix and lists only Matrix Programs.

Anything that's not a Matrix program is something else. Activesofts run on skillwires using their totally separate, different rules. Other softs run on datajacks/sim modules, and apparently have almost no rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It would indeed be nice if everything-but-everything was treated the same way (even activesofts). I just don't see that the writers accomplished that.

[Krishach]

The Matrix is the sweeping term generally used to refer to the worldwide computer network and telecommunications grid

Quoted to avoid confusion here. The matrix is a NETWORK similar to the internet. There are NETWORKS that do not involve the internet. And in shadowrun, there are networks that do not involve the Matrix.

First, please read the very first sentence in that section: "In order to interact with the Matrix, you need to use programs."

um, these datafiles are stored on a datachip or other device. They have nothing to do with accessing the Matrix. Also, please look at the precise wording: "use programs." It does not say "Matrix Programs." This pen is red. Not all pens are red. Programs are required to access the Matrix. Not all programs access the Matrix.

this chapter is 'The Wireless World', and it's all about the matrix.

This is incorrect. A large amount of this chapter has no reliance on the Matrix in general. Programs can be run independent of the matrix, as can wireless connections.

Example: the wireless connection to your gun does not require the Matrix. Autosofts do not require the matrix.
Your team is out in the jungle with no node and no satelitte connection. You can still connect to each others comms. This does not require the Matrix.

Neither does "The Wireless World" exclusively suggest "The Matrix." Your computer and cell phone still work fine without an internet signal.

again, I have yet to see a quote from the "PROGRAMS" section exclusively applying them to "MATRIX PROGRAMS."

The section you're referring to only refers to Common Use, etc. ('Matrix Programs').

Also incorrect. A large number of the listed programs are not Matrix related or required.

[DMiller]

SR4 p320
Knowsoft: Knowsofts replicate Knowledge skills, actively overwriting the user’s knowledge with their own data. Knowsofts must be accessed with a direct neural link (either a sim module or datajack).

To me this says that there is not a program running. The knowsoft copies raw data through DNI directly to the user's brain. The brain now accesses that data as if the user had learned the information.

My 2 ¥
-D

Sorry for the SR4 reference, I don't have a updated PDF.

[Yerameyahu]

Krishach, that's just silly. We've already been over how SR4A specifically refers to Common Use et al as 'Matrix Programs'. It's not my definition. That's the category given in the book, as opposed to the skillsofts.

You're the one who made the claim that the Programs section in Wireless World said 'nothing at all' about Matrix Programs. As I pointed out, this is wrong for several reasons: the whole chapter and the whole section are about the matrix, and the long list of programs that immediately follows it (after a transition like, 'and here are the programs we're talking about:') are precisely the exact programs listed under 'Matrix Programs' (see above). So, it may indeed be vacuously true that p232 does not contain the phrase 'Matrix Programs', but it's crazy to say that it's not specifically and directly, with examples, talking about Matrix Programs.

Refuting the claim I never made that everything in the chapter requires matrix access is irrelevant. (Incidentally, if you connect two comms, that *is* 'The Matrix' for our purposes. All networks use the Matrix rules.) Neither did I say that the first sentence proves that all programs are matrix programs. That's called a 'topic sentence', which clearly sets the topic for the section. The point was, as I explained, that the section is clearly, with examples, about those programs that the book categorizes as 'Matrix Programs', as opposed to something else like Skillsofts.

[Krishach]

You're the one who made the claim that the Programs section in Wireless World said 'nothing at all' about Matrix Programs

You misread my post. I said that a large amount of the chapter has things that are not directly related to the matix: as in, they do not REQUIRE the matrix.

You also seem to have read that I claim that this section has nothing to do with Matrix Programs, which is incorrect. I have stated that this section deals with "Programs." Said again, Matrix Programs are programs, not all programs are Matrix Programs.

it may indeed be vacuously true that p232 does not contain the phrase 'Matrix Programs'

This is the entire point. I am making a case based on RAW rules and wordings, which I originally said did not confirm things explicitly.

Because you seem to be arguing against a point that I am not, let me rephrase exactly what I am saying:

THE BOOK has specific rules called "PROGRAMS," in it's own section that only refers to "PROGRAMS."
THE BOOK lists skillsofts as programs.
THE BOOK lists Matrix Programs as programs.
THE BOOK lists mapsofts and tutorsofts as programs.
THE BOOK NEVER SAYS these have to be loaded on a commlink or any other system.
OUR INTERPRETATIONS AFTER THIS ARE JUST INTERPRETATIONS: YOURS AND MINE BOTH
THERE IS NO OTHER POINT I AM MAKING.

I really don't care what your interpretation of that section is. My own interpretation is STILL AN INTERPRETATION, and is not what I am arguing for. If it's not in the list above, it is my opinion. Which I have stated repeatedly.


Unless you have something THE BOOK has written stating otherwise, the above is true. So please quote the book when I am arguing ABOUT the book. Because vacuous is exactly what RAW is: rules without being colored by our own thoughts as to how it makes sense.

[Krishach]

also, just as a thought, if lingusofts, tutorsofts, mapsofts, and knowsofts do not have to "run" and do not count toward the persona or agent limit, then I could simultaneously access every language and knowledge skill the game has with no penalty after I have acquired them.

If they count as programs, they can all be carried, but they must be loaded and count towards a limit, therefore preventing en-mass knowledge.

[Falconer]

In which case, Sensor Software (p60 Arsenal), Tacnet software, and other types don't count against the program limit.


That's BS Yera. You're inventing a distinction which does not exist in the books. They're all referred to as programs, they're all loaded into the persona as programs, they're all then run against the processor limit of whatever device as programs. (not all devices can run all programs though).


P222. "Processor Limit"
"*EVERY* Device has a Processor limit, the number of *PROGRAMS* at which it's Response starts to degrade."
"System"
"System limits the ratings of programs running on the device...."


It doesn't say matrix programs or any other such thing, it is programs. Every piece of software you've listed refers to itself as a program.

Even your bits about p232 are off... Matrix refers to the electronics and software environment in general. You could be plugged directly into a wired node and no network whatsoever. The device still has matrix attributes. Matrix is just the catchall word they use for electronics systems.

P232 makes utterly no distinction between what you're terming matrix programs and all programs. A program is a program is a program. It must be loaded into memory (the persona), and run (counting against the processor limit) to have an effect. This is simply you inventing a requirement which the text never once states in order to count against the limit. Even mapsofts include interface software you need to load to view the map (just like google earth application... go figure).

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

NiL_FisK_Urd:
Now calculate the essence cost. I told you they don't let you get the sim module for free as cyberware even if it is supposedly built-in.

In order to produce 0.74 alpha (70%), 0.63 beta (60%) cyberware suite essence costs. That means the starting cost for ala carte basic grade is 1.05 essence.

Now the math... attention co-processor (0.3), Datajack (0.1), Imagelink (0.1), Math SPU (0.15) == 0.65 before commlink. Well a commlink is only 0.2 essence (0.85 total)... the sim module is NOT actually built in but installed seperately it's own independent 0.2 essence cost.

Nice, i never bothered to do the math on this ^^

[Yerameyahu]

This is what I am arguing: the PROGRAMS heading on page 232 never mentions the phrase Matrix Programs at all

It doesn't say matrix programs or any other such thing, it is programs

As I said, this may indeed be true, but it's also worthless. I never said "it says the words 'Matrix Programs'". *My* point was that 'PROGRAMS' on p232 specifically refers to the programs that the book chooses to categorize as 'Matrix Programs': Common Use, etc. This category is in opposition to the skillsoft category.

Matrix refers to the electronics and software environment in general. You could be plugged directly into a wired node and no network whatsoever. The device still has matrix attributes. Matrix is just the catchall word they use for electronics systems.

I never said anything different. 'Matrix Programs' is, for the fifth time, the term the book uses. It's not my term. When Krishach chose to claim that the 'PROGRAMS' section was not talking about 'Matrix Programs', however, it is relevant to point out that the section is clearly talking about the matrix and the programs that the book categorizes as 'Matrix Programs', from sentence one to the end (… where it specifically lists Common Use, etc., which the book chooses to categorize as 'Matrix Programs').

Again, in the section (p333? I forget) that the book specifically categorizes these programs as 'Matrix Programs', it refers to p232 for them, and only them. Skillsofts, etc., do not refer to p232, and p232 refers to programs of the category 'Matrix Programs', and only them.

Sensor, etc. are from another book; it's up to those books to keep their stuff straight. I didn't write them, and it's not my fault when they're wrong. We're talking about SR4, though, which has (among others) two categories in Software: 'Matrix Programs' and 'Skillsofts', and only the former refers to p232, and p232 refers only to the members of the former.

then I could simultaneously access every language and knowledge skill the game has with no penalty after I have acquired them.

… So? Besides, again, I didn't say they were good rules. I said the opposite. I've repeatedly said that my preference is for all programs to use the same rules, and (in my own games) RAW always loses to balance and simplicity. I've only ever been saying that the RAW doesn't appear to do this. It appears to have gone out of its way to not say it (which I agree is silly).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Could be, Udoshi. Nothing about 'home theater' says editing to me, so that's a different thing.

Ha, TJ, you mean that DVD feature that no one ever used ever? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I guess that's another possibility. At this point, though, we're just talking about fluff and previous edition stuff, right?

As a Shadowrunner, I LOVE the Multi-POV applications of a simdeck.
As for previous editions, I am not sure if the SR4A SIMDECK has those capabilities, though I often buy them for my characters. IF they are no longer applicable, then yes, this is about Fluff and Previous Editions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

Yera... that's because skillsofts aren't run on a commlink. They're run on a simsense module or datajack. Not all programs are written for all devices. But they're still programs. Take a page from the obsolete/obselescent bit and run an extra 'interpreter' program to run the non-native program.


But it's not the fault of the authors. It's the fault of you inventing a distinction which isn't actually there. Sensor software can be run on a node (commlink or drone.. and if rewritten specifically for a peripheral node, even on the sensor itself subject to it's system limits). This is a fairly non-controversial statement. The rating at which it can run and counts against process limits is also fairly non-controversial. The book doesn't say anything about this in particular because it doesn't NEED to say anything about this. Every matrix device (peripheral nodes included) has it's own set of ratings which include proc limit. Any program run counts against these matrix attribute limitations.

[Yerameyahu]

Wait, so now the 'PROGRAMS' section is only about 'commlink programs'? Make up your mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Does that section not talk only about the programs categorized as 'Matrix Programs', and is the listing for 'Matrix Programs' not the only one which refers to that section (p232)?

Total side note: we've already been over it, but it's basically crazy that simsense programs are (apparently) run on datajacks and sim modules, but not commlinks, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's just nutty, beyond the fact that it implies that datajacks (tiny little buggers) contain complete sim modules inside them, while commlinks don't. Bleh.