AK-147 Nanofax here we come Options

[_Pax._]

That and it makes gun control laws kinda pointless.

.... instead, they'll keep going with more and more draconian information control laws. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[CanRay]

I'd be locked up in an instant.

[Irion]

Well, the point is how far in the futur you are looking...
If you end up with replicators(StarTrek) the next day, yeah that would be a problem.

Sure it is annoying to have guns floating around without serial number. On the other hand it is not that hard to remove a serial number.

If you take a look at the "gun" in question I guess you will be able to determin what model of printer was used. So this narrows it down.
But the major issue is productivity and costs. 3D Printers are not really the thing for mass production.

Gun control becomes an issue if you drop a lot of "good" guns (in the sense of dangerous) for a low price.
For example: I got an contract from the US Government to produce M16 rifles. Now my production line is still standing and I just produce a bunch of those more and push them on the market for a low price. (For example I got a lot of raw materials still to use)

The point is not some nerd building a small 22 rifle or handgun, which takes him probably several days. (Programming the printer, printing it and then finding and replacing some parts with metal once) (Of course thats not helping the guy beeing shot at with it. Thats why I said it is bad for the police to some extend)

It gets a problem if producer for example could just send gunparts without restriction. (But here again, the laser printer would not be the problem)

I mean it seems to me a bit silly to worry about a plastic (mostly inferior plastic in those printers) .22 if there are assault rifles sold to drug cartels and gangs per kilo.

[Wakshaani]

To track them in this kind of environment, you'll need some kind of tracking system built into eithe rthe printer or the material itself. The printer's the irreplacable part of the equasion, so, I'd assume the work would go there, similar to the marking that today's printers put on any document that they make. Invisible to normal detection, but if you know what to do, ping, the item reveals that it was made by Printer XYZ. Kick on the Matrix, find the location of Printer XYZ, and bingo.

[apieros]

To track them in this kind of environment, you'll need some kind of tracking system built into eithe rthe printer or the material itself.

And any shadowrunner worthy of the name will know a guy who can doctor the printer, or can do it themselves.

Plus, it's just kind of cool.

Stereotypical Shadowrunner to stereotypical Fixer:

"I need a virgin Ares Predator." ("Virgin" = never been used in a crime. Also, no Serial Number.)

"I can get a spit-polished one for 5x normal cost. Or..." ("Spit-polished" = Serial Number burned off, barrel scored to prevent ballistics matches.)

"Yes?"

"Here's a printed knockoff, for half the cost of a regular Predator. It only shoots 50 rounds before breaking, but it can never be traced to anyone. Bring it back, and you get a 5% discount on your next purchase."

Disposable/recyclable guns, printed/sintered in a basement from illicit CAD files, sold to criminals who need untraceable firearms.

That's the kind of criminal flair a true Shadowrun adventure needs. Bad people doing bad things with technology intended for wholly different uses.

I must confess, I like the idea.

[CanRay]

Why am I reminded of the "Pistol Rental" in Neuromancer now?

[_Pax._]

If you take a look at the "gun" in question I guess you will be able to determin what model of printer was used. So this narrows it down.

Not really. There are already 3D printers out there, that can produce most of the components needed to assemble another printer, of the exact same design.

Shadowrun accounts for that difficulty by the mechanism of nanomachine RFID tags embedded into the feedstock itself; sure, you can acquire tag-free feedstock, and you can even do it through black-market channels. But doing so is prohibitively expensive ... thus deterring your garden-variety liquor-store-holdup thug from even entertaining the fantasy of using such weapons.

But the major issue is productivity and costs. 3D Printers are not really the thing for mass production.

Yet. The key word which you forgot to include is yet.

The point is not some nerd building a small 22 rifle or handgun, which takes him probably several days. (Programming the printer, printing it and then finding and replacing some parts with metal once) (Of course thats not helping the guy beeing shot at with it. Thats why I said it is bad for the police to some extend)

Programming is a once-only hurdle. Once you have the design, and know it works ... you just need to automate the process of removing finished components, and resupplying the printer with expended consumables.

I mean it seems to me a bit silly to worry about a plastic (mostly inferior plastic in those printers) .22 if there are assault rifles sold to drug cartels and gangs per kilo.

The worry that people have, is that this is just the earliest, most primitive beginnings.

If metal-based "sintering" can be advanced to the point of producing the necessary metal components, perhaps including those for the casings themselves? Combined with cheaper plastics-based production of the "furniture" elements of a firearm, well, then things get ... "interesting", in the chinese proverbial sense.

Perhaps you noticed my post upthread, where I said that - despite no prior experience - I could have a (small capacity) mass production operation turning out WW2-technology SMGs? At the time, I thought it would take a machine shop. Now, having read about the metal 3D printers ... no, it wouldn't even take that much. Just enough money to buy the right machines, and a reliable supply chain to provide the necessary materials.

Mark my words: if gun control laws ever get effective enough to drive the price of traditionally-manufactured firearms out of the reach of criminals? They will find alternate means to acquire what they feel they need. That's inevitable.

[_Pax._]

I must confess, I like the idea.

So do I. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[apieros]

How does this affect Shadowrun?

In England and Tir nAn Og, places with hardcore gun laws, you can't get regular guns. You get printed ones. Mission: smuggle a printer into those places, for a criminal syndicate.

Steal CAD plans for a new prototype. Another corp wants them or infoterrorists want to open-source them.

Sneak into a syndicate's "factory" (think Breaking Bad's lab underneath the cleaners) and substitute a flawed CAD file for their regular one. Now its weapons explode when used.

Other variations will probably occur.

[Shortstraw]

Shadowrun accounts for that difficulty by the mechanism of nanomachine RFID tags embedded into the feedstock itself; sure, you can acquire tag-free feedstock, and you can even do it through black-market channels. But doing so is prohibitively expensive ... thus deterring your garden-variety liquor-store-holdup thug from even entertaining the fantasy of using such weapons.

Is 1/10th the cost by the power of chemistry.

[_Pax._]

Is 1/10th the cost by the power of chemistry.

Not necessarily.

Chemistry is just that - chemistry. Not alchemy. If your design for something calls for feedstock that is a blend of tungsten, molybdenum, chromium, and iron ... you can't just buy a bunch of home cleaners and such from the local Stuffer Shack, and expect to come up with those elements.

Nanofax feedstock is not that easy to manufacture. If it were, the books wouldn't go on and on about how the corporations manage to control the availability of feedstocks. Cheap knock-offs would be just a stuffershack away ...

[Irion]

@_Pax._
I said, it changes as soon as you get to the replicator technology displayed in StarTrek. (If you get this effect with Nanobots or whatever, does not really matter)

The point is, if you sinter every freaking bullet, it gets just annoying. You are using a very complex and expensive machine to produce a very simple form over and over again.

Mark my words: if gun control laws ever get effective enough to drive the price of traditionally-manufactured firearms out of the reach of criminals? They will find alternate means to acquire what they feel they need. That's inevitable.

The point is, that those ways will be (like I said not calculating with the StarTrek technology) very expensive. That means the enforcement of the law would need to be really, really though. This would further emply, that beeing a criminal would be really, really, really though.

The problem with gun laws in general is, that there are loopholes. You do not need to think that big. I mean give somebody 50 bucks to go and buy you a gun.
True, if the laws go stricter, that ally will close. Nobody goes through a jungle of paperwork and the possibility of criminal charges for 50 bucks.
So you might approach the salesperson directly (aka as bribe). You may forge some papers and so on. Then of course not everybody beeing part of an criminal organisation needs to
have a record. So they just might buy some guns...
Then of course if the paperwork to sell guns gets more, the margin on selling guns gets smaller. So the producers will explore loopholes or "grey to dark" areas to bring their guns to the market.

So I agree, strict gunlaws make it harder for criminals to get guns. My point is only that those laws would need to be extremly strict and well enforced in order to make them produce their own guns. (Because it is not like you can't track that equipment)

So the equipment you would need to produce guns would need to be easy to come by and the gun laws would need to be strict enough to justify it but not strict enough to force the criminals to explore different avenues of profit.
To come back to the first point: Unless those printers really improve in a nearly fantastical way, the window for this development is pretty small.

[Sengir]

That and it makes gun control laws kinda pointless.

Building edged weapons at home as been done since the first tool-using Homo species, yet there are still laws for what you can carry or buy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


And soething probably relevant for this discussion: https://www.eff.org/issues/printers

[Draco18s]

Chemistry is just that - chemistry. Not alchemy. If your design for something calls for feedstock that is a blend of tungsten, molybdenum, chromium, and iron ... you can't just buy a bunch of home cleaners and such from the local Stuffer Shack, and expect to come up with those elements.

While true, you can burn out any RFID tags in it with a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 100 device.

[Irion]

The point in the matter is, that it is quite hard to come by high tech stuff in general, as long as it is not common use.
3D Printers cost around 100.000 Dollars (the good).
Those which can work with metal probably go in the millions.
Yeah, thats a small price to get a prototype cheaper and faster thinking in the big scale. (Starting your production maybe 3 month faster... for each of your products... for around 10 to 20 years....)

For some guy who just wants to rob the store next door...

[Yerameyahu]

For me, the point is no crazy 1/10 price, Draco18s. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) How is 3D printing even Chemistry at all?

[Irion]

The question concerning chemistry is about the foodstock for those nanites.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

While true, you can burn out any RFID tags in it with a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 100 device.

Not if they are Security Tags. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And you can damn well bet that the tags in Nano-Feedstock are Security Tags. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

For me, the point is no crazy 1/10 price, Draco18s. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) How is 3D printing even Chemistry at all?

It isn't... It is likely Industrial Mechanics, or Armorer. I would go with Industrial Mechanics.

[Starmage21]

Not if they are Security Tags. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
And you can damn well bet that the tags in Nano-Feedstock are Security Tags. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

just means you need a stronger device! Pass a strong enough magnetic field over any conductor and you will melt it to slag.

[Draco18s]

For me, the point is no crazy 1/10 price, Draco18s. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) How is 3D printing even Chemistry at all?

Did I say it was?

[CanRay]

Chemistry is just that - chemistry. Not alchemy.

Hermetic Magicians are working on that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

The post you were responding to did, Draco18s. I felt you missed the point when you made it about tags. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I disagree, Irion. A blend of powdered metals for using in a nanofax doesn't sound at all similar to normal uses of Chemistry in SR4. If I made an Arnold Palmer, I wouldn't pay 1/10 the cost of the tea and lemonade just because I mixed them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Draco18s]

The post you were responding to did, Draco18s.

CONTEXT.

Is 1/10th the cost by the power of chemistry.

Chemistry is just that - chemistry. Not alchemy.

While true, (Pax)

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, I know. While true, I felt your point was unrelated. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) *For me*, the point is that you're not getting 1/10 price, because it's not even Chemistry at all. Given that they were talking about Chemistry and the 1/10 price, this seemed relevant. This has nothing to do with where you're getting the feedstocks or their being tagged.